the hillfolk tdi-m returns,but i need some turbo help

[hillfolk'r]

the tdi-m has been runnin good ,and remember that holset "hybrid" turbo  i was building ?? yea i have finally got it on this past weekend...
its sketchy .....
as it was,ive blown like 3 stock 1.6 td turbos (2 garretts,and a kkk)
thats because i like to basically  let them run "closed wastegate"
yea it runs great,itll swing the 30psi vdo guage around to the  zero pointer
the more boost,the more power(yea even though at the end of a 1/4 run itll be pushing like 1500 pre turbo temps)
put tha setup on a dyno@full load for 5 minutes and you will have scrapmetal
the thing is,i need that crazy power,im tryin to get in the 13's
so i tried a holset hy35 carteridge+compressor with a remachined (to fit turbine wheel)hx30w exh. housing
before the power would come on around 2000,and be at full chat by 2400,and pull to 3800-4000 before falling flat on its face
the holset  starts to come on around 2700,and around 3300 or so ,it comes alive,and pulls till 4500
but  its not enough to make up for it at the far end
my gtech was givin lame 0-60 times of 6.1,where as before it was mid 5's,,but ive gotten a few 9.5 second 1/8 mile times,(garrett was hi 9's),with low-mid 14 times still........
my exhaust temp  is like ice cold at the end of a run too,,like 1100,AND THAT IS GOOD..BUT.......oops caps


 :lol:
i was told that i probably wouldnt need the wastegate,cause i wont have enough  "engine" to spool up that bad boy.....
surprise,
its still peggin the guage+blowin off boost pipes like crazy,hose clamps only do so much :twisted:  :twisted:
thats what i need ,a turbo in between  those 2 extremes
i know its flowin a lot of air,due to the lower temps.....

i understand a little(enough to get in trouble,apparently),,,i sorta understand ar ratios on an exhaust housing,ie: larger ar,,more lag,possibly not enough flow from engine to spool basically,etc



if the exhaust housing could be even smaller on this holset ,itd be fine
crazy idea,but a turbo with the garrett/kkk exhaust housing,with that holset compressor side sounds like fun times
 :wink:



ive got a t3 flange manifold,should i get one of those chinese"super 60" ebay turbos and what would be a good one??dont forget ,im "hardcore" so i still want a "big turbo",lol rofl
oh yea thats right,i blew the head gasket testing it tonite,i had some coolant blow out the rad cap(thats why you leave the hood  off for testing)
 :roll:

ill post up some ebay crap,and maybe you guys could tell me what looks good..
id like to go cheap right now,,i dont know how much i can get from my "sponsers"
http://cgi.ebay.com/T3-T4-AR48-INTERNAL-WASTEGATE-TURBO-OIL-RETURN-LINE-KIT_W0QQitemZ300125159607QQihZ020QQcategoryZ33742QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


http://cgi.ebay.com/TURBONETIC-T3-T04-TURBO-BRAND-NEW-WITH-FITTINGS-LINES_W0QQitemZ320132683868QQihZ011QQcategoryZ33742QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



http://cgi.ebay.com/T3-T4-T3-T4-T04E-HYBRID-TURBO-CHARGER-AR50-OIL-LINE_W0QQitemZ300124396805QQihZ020QQcategoryZ33742QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


http://cgi.ebay.com/T3-TURBO-CHARGER-UNIVERSAL-A-R-42-LIKE-NEW_W0QQitemZ120136736590QQihZ002QQcategoryZ33742QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


http://cgi.ebay.com/V-BAND-T3-T4-TURBO-AR-58-INTERNAL-WASTEGATE-OIL-LINE_W0QQitemZ250137154063QQihZ015QQcategoryZ33742QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

any help is appreciated,cause lord knows i need it :roll:

[935racer]

Hey Blake, haven't seen you on here in a long while, hows it going?

I wouldn't try downsizing the turbine side anymore than you already have, you will most likely run into surge issues. I would work on increasing flow, to get the turbo spooling sooner, this means tubular exhaust manifold, better intake manifold, ported head, camshaft etc. How much boost are you making with your hybrid holset? Another BIG contributor to spooling up the turbo is your downpipe, whats the diameter? Is there a transition off the outlet flange? What are the radii of the bends?

And last of all, any pics of that *** :twisted:

[hillfolk'r]

Hey Blake, haven't seen you on here in a long while, hows it going?

I wouldn't try downsizing the turbine side anymore than you already have, you will most likely run into surge issues. I would work on increasing flow, to get the turbo spooling sooner, this means tubular exhaust manifold, better intake manifold, ported head, camshaft etc. How much boost are you making with your hybrid holset? Another BIG contributor to spooling up the turbo is your downpipe, whats the diameter? Is there a transition off the outlet flange? What are the radii of the bends?

And last of all, any pics of that *** :twisted:

heywhats goin on??? long time no hear,lol
yea funny how movin+starting a new job can cause people to "disappear"
now that im settled in,,theres time for the internets,lol
dont get me wrong,i never stopped wrenchin though



ill have to get some pics,,its at the hangar  



yea i realize i need a nice exhaust manifold,,,im using an early manifold modified   to fit upside down,(and dual outlet ported out)with a 1 inch thick adapter plate/plenum/etc for right now till i get my custom one done,thanks Mr.Bridgeport
look out,now i know how to use a lathe+mill,so theres nothing that cant be done

it looks sick,wish it ran sick
if i get a turbo setup that "feels" good,then ill finish the custom exhaust+intake manifold

itll go 40 psi right now easy

ive got a 3 inch dp with 4.5 inch radius bends,,it ends right under the steering rack
i need a "smaller " turbo.....


im not sure,but lookin at the garrett, i think theres a .35 in the exhaust housing(possibly the ar??)
and a .42 in the compressor housing(im positive that ive heard thats the ar)
im thinkin if that .35 is the exhaust ar,,than around a .45 or so would help reduce backpressure,since it seems a little "choked" with the stock garrett
and  then make the intake side like .6 maybe for more airflow....
ill admit i dont totally know what the dealio is with the ar numbers they list
arent other parameters important ,like engine size??
you dont use a turbo from a c-12 cat on a lawnmower obviously...heehee

[935racer]

I'd finish the intake and exhaust manifolds now, they'll help the performance greatly, given they are engineered right. You might also consider a 4" DP. Or I'd look into pump work, make that *** rev to 6000rpm, and get some more dynamic advance, you'll be laughin.
If your just gonna give up on that turbo (which I don't think you should its about perfect for what you want to do in my opinion) than let me know what you want for it!

[935racer]

Oh also forgot to point out that your current turbine side is a traditional t3 turbine inlet flange, so if you build a manifold for it now and still aren't happy than you can put on any other t3 flanged turbo, although your 6cm hosuing is just as small as any other t3 inlet flanged turbine... umm yeah nevermind. You gotta go with your turbo or back to the stock t3's and machine some bigger wheels in them because you 6cm is already like a .42 AR, although I have no idea what sized wheel you are running in there, that matters too. Any pics/details on your holset hybrid?

[hillfolk'r]

ill have to get pics for ya
im tryin to get somethin goin before waterfest
the hx30w exh .  housing is from a 3.9b cummins
the carteridge+compressor housing is from a hy35(5.9 b/ 2001 dodge truck)
to fit the wheel in the small  housing  the housing needed to be machined out,,i think andy2 did somethin similar
i paid a nice chunk for the housing,and the turbo
id take 200,shipping extra,it came from a truck with 40k
i do have the orig. exhaust  housing for the hy35
how about a huge compressor for the stock garrett??
but since i got the t3  manifold,id rather go aftermarket,its just confusing to size one up,,and i dont wanna gamble as much (again)

[935racer]

I'll take the turbo if you want to get rid of it. I honestly can't think of a better turbo for you, I think you will run into surge issues putting a compressor anywhere close to that size on a stock 1.6 turbine t3. I'll think about it tomorrow.

[hillfolk'r]

ive been looking around on the internets at those "sizing charts",and ive got a problem with most of them
i think they are more related to gas engines
usually one of  the first  questions is v.e.(volumetric efficency)
im thinkin its way higher than a "standard" 70-80%
and so how can you size one properly if your math is bad from the get go??
the thing that gets me is everyone was sayin "that holset wont work"
well it sorta  does,so to me that seems to say that this bad boy (1.9 tdi)moves a serious amount of air
 ive not heard any surging either with the holset (it has that anti surge inlet "thingee")
so it seems  like it wants a serious compressor,with a semi-small exhaust housing to keep response up
i used to know this guy in ohio that used to hang out with art arfons,and i vaguely remember him sayin that those sizing charts have some crucial info missing to help in proper sizing

[Benjamin]

maybe there is a other turbinewheel with more blades, it will spool up quicker.

Greetz, Benjamin

[hillfolk'r]

possibly....
im thinkin some kind of t3 with a (approx) a .48 turbine housing
and around a .6 compressor housing
it just gets a little confusing with so many different  trim options

[ezekiel]

in response to your post in Joe's thread about the T3 60-trim

the problem you're going to run into is compressor surge because of the boost pressures you run.  You're pressure ratio is way on the surge side of the compressor map.

here's a map for that turbo



here's the map for a holset HY35W (HE351 from an HO model Cummins)

notice the very high pressure ratios it's capable of vs the garrett?  Problem is, you're still playing with the surge line really bad.  a TDI at 20psi requires 20.04 CMf at 4500rpm and has a pressure ratio of 2.42.  CMf goes up as boost pressure goes up, but I don't think it's enough to pull it inside the surge line.



EDIT:

here's your requirements at 35psi, but you'll need to get your intake temps down, I'm not sure what you're running, it'll all be in vain if the intake air is hot.

35psi : 28.7 at 4500rpm or 35.1 at 5500rpm with a pressure ratio of 3.48

actually, the holset is perfect if you can get up there without too much surge.    as you rev more (I do my calculations at 4500rpm just cause I won't really by revving it much) the requirements jump, and it puts the turbo in a pretty sweet spot.

HOWEVER, I think your going to start running into exhaust side flow problems, and is probably why your EGTs are so high,

[hillfolk'r]

egts are horrendus with the "stock" garrett,like over 1500 degrees at the end of a 1/4 run
i basically let it go closed wastegate,for max boost,i think it goes to 40 psi at least,and i used to shift at about 4000
the holset setup doesnt spool good till 3500(way too late),but egt's are very low(like 1100),and up top it goes over 40psi also
now i sort of understand that the holset is flowing more air,hence the lower egt's,,but if it would spool earlier ,it would be a good setup
im thinkin to ditch the holset completely,and try somethin else....but im not sure of what...
yea ok,ill go 4500rpms,,and around 35-40 psi if needed
i dont run an ic(with either turbo)
the water injection does help
its like:if the stock garrett was a little larger on the exhaust side,and the compressor side was alot bigger,im thinkin it would be perfect
any way to figure out  how much air the stock garrett is flowing at 40+psi???

[ezekiel]

I'm not sure what turbo the 1.6s came with, but you should be able to find a map somewhere.

at 40psi, it's definitely not doing anything.  It gets to a point where it's just blowing hot air, it stops flowing any more air and just starts heating the air it is flowing.

here's the map for the VNT15 that comes on TDIs, which is what I have, I've actually calculated that it can take 21psi, plenty for me, but definitely more than the 17psi everyone says.

but definitely not enough for you, but will give an idea of a small OE turbo and how little it really flows.

map is in kg/min not lb/min, so flow looks tiny, but it's actually about double what the map says.

[hillfolk'r]

bump



ijust let the water injection peepee in like a gardenhose,,this is all temporary,just remember that.
its for testing only,and isnt a permanent install



yum, woodgrain

[hillfolk'r]

sorry about the pics bein so big....i sized  them wrong in imageshack :oops: