feeler; thoughts on a G60 supercharger on TD engine ?

[sjampoo]

@ OP: Sorry for the OT Will keep things short

one thing to think about, is going with veg injection nozzles.  they are a bit bigger to flow that thick stuff.  otherwise it might throw your timing off by a little bit.  i'm not sure who sells it though, just remember seeing it online.

I'm using special injectors, on 245 bar, with longer 'Bosch Duratherm Chromium' glowplugs, will alter timing to 'advance' (due to the higher opening pressure) and will open the enrichment screw albit (for veggie oil contains more bound oxygen, for injectors to give more on short opening, and to compensate charger filling up cilinders

I found a BOV 'DIY' manual, that I might just re-mod to regulate the boost pressure a bit..


@ OP: How's your setup dealing with the idle-pressure? is that A/C pully something you plan on 'from starters' or are you thinking of modding this inplace in a later stage? Please inform on the first test run ASAP

[jtanguay]

higher opening pressures mean that the timing will be a little more retarded (since it will take the pump that little bit of extra time to build the required pressure to open the injector)

i would say that to have a perfectly running veg car, you should get one of those diesel timing units that time the motor to the actual injection of the fuel from the injector.  (i think Dr. Diesel has one of these units)

[sjampoo]

higher opening pressures mean that the timing will be a little more retarded (since it will take the pump that little bit of extra time to build the required pressure to open the injector)

i would say that to have a perfectly running veg car, you should get one of those diesel timing units that time the motor to the actual injection of the fuel from the injector.  (i think Dr. Diesel has one of these units)

I think you got the retarding bit mixed up:
Since the pump will take some extra time to build the required pressure, one should *advance* the pumptiming: so the pump starts a bit earlier building pressure,.. and still injects just at the right moment.

I haven't got a Dr-Diesel-timing-thingy (yet), but I'm hoping my father-in-law-2-b will have grown enough experience over the last 30 years working on farmer-diesels  (he allready check my current engine with his fingerspitzengefuhl on the injector-HP-lines )  But for now: I'll leave this topic to the OP, as far as my interference didn't ruine it allready

[burn_your_money]

I think you both are saying the same thing.
jtanguay is saying it will be retarded if you don't advance it and you are saying you will need to advance it to make up for the higher breaking pressures

[jtanguay]

higher opening pressures mean that the timing will be a little more retarded (since it will take the pump that little bit of extra time to build the required pressure to open the injector)

i would say that to have a perfectly running veg car, you should get one of those diesel timing units that time the motor to the actual injection of the fuel from the injector.  (i think Dr. Diesel has one of these units)

I think you got the retarding bit mixed up:
Since the pump will take some extra time to build the required pressure, one should *advance* the pumptiming: so the pump starts a bit earlier building pressure,.. and still injects just at the right moment.

I haven't got a Dr-Diesel-timing-thingy (yet), but I'm hoping my father-in-law-2-b will have grown enough experience over the last 30 years working on farmer-diesels  (he allready check my current engine with his fingerspitzengefuhl on the injector-HP-lines )  But for now: I'll leave this topic to the OP, as far as my interference didn't ruine it allready

well if you need to advance the timing to compensate for higher breaking pressures, then i'm pretty much bang on with what i said  :wink:.  plus, as Libbybapa has stated before, the thicker veg fuel will also alter timing due to it being more viscous.  that is the main reason that i recommended using one of those mechanical diesel timing tools, so you can find out exactly when the fuel is being injected.   i'm not sure if you really want higher injection pressures when running veg.  i would think you would want a larger nozzle to let it 'flow' easier and take less load off the injection pump.

moving on to 245 bar injectors... all i have to say is  :shock:!!!

you're running DI pressures on an IDI pump?!  Turbo Diesel injector opening pressure is 155 bar, whereas N/A is 130 bar.   It could possibly work if you advance the timing enough.  i can't remember who said it, but someone has tried different combinations of injector opening pressures, and found that N/A injectors @ 1.00mm timing gave the best mileage i believe.

good luck on the build!

[bigblockchev]

Superchargers are great for low end torque. My concern would be how to drive it off the end of the crankshaft. I just had to have my crank end rebuilt because of the key/gear coming loose. It would seem difficult to add yet another  parasitic load to the crank nose. I am guessing that the supercharger is going to require 5-15 Hp to run based on other small supercharger setups. This is a lot in addition to the other loads such as intermediate shaft, water pump, alternator, power steering, AC compressor, already present. If  it could be run off the back side of the engine where the turbo is to balance the stresses then  this would make it more feasible but there isn't much room there. So my guess is that some re-engineering of the drive would be necessary. It would be interesting to see the performance of such a setup, lots of grunt off the line. Cheers Dan

[bigblockchev]

Forgot to add Detroit Diesels are mostly supercharged and turbocharged, this is mostly because they are 2 stroke diesels and the blower is used for scavenging but doesen't hurt power output. Dan

[BlackTieTD]

Superchargers are great for low end torque. My concern would be how to drive it off the end of the crankshaft. I just had to have my crank end rebuilt because of the key/gear coming loose. It would seem difficult to add yet another  parasitic load to the crank nose. I am guessing that the supercharger is going to require 5-15 Hp to run based on other small supercharger setups. This is a lot in addition to the other loads such as intermediate shaft, water pump, alternator, power steering, AC compressor, already present. If  it could be run off the back side of the engine where the turbo is to balance the stresses then  this would make it more feasible but there isn't much room there. So my guess is that some re-engineering of the drive would be necessary. It would be interesting to see the performance of such a setup, lots of grunt off the line. Cheers Dan

is that in a 1.6 you had crank issues with? i havent had any trouble with the 1.6s although there have been some reports. the 1.9s need modification even if they are stock.

to compensate for the drag of the supercharger (and to free up power even if you aren't supercharging) drop the AC and power streering. i think the OP said he wasn't going to run those but i don't feel like reading that over..

that quick mock up looks good. keep rockin  :mrgreen:

oh PS: you might want to look into cogged belt setups to drive the S/C and accessories. the normal G60 kits are pricey. not sure if you could adapt one or if you'd have to start fresh. definitely something to look into and try to make work if possible. that was the next mod i had lined up for my G60. i was starting to get into serp belt slippage. with diesel torque this could also be an issue for you.

[Mk2Fanatic]

Superchargers are great for low end torque. My concern would be how to drive it off the end of the crankshaft. I just had to have my crank end rebuilt because of the key/gear coming loose. It would seem difficult to add yet another  parasitic load to the crank nose. I am guessing that the supercharger is going to require 5-15 Hp to run based on other small supercharger setups. This is a lot in addition to the other loads such as intermediate shaft, water pump, alternator, power steering, AC compressor, already present. If  it could be run off the back side of the engine where the turbo is to balance the stresses then  this would make it more feasible but there isn't much room there. So my guess is that some re-engineering of the drive would be necessary. It would be interesting to see the performance of such a setup, lots of grunt off the line. Cheers Dan

is that in a 1.6 you had crank issues with? i havent had any trouble with the 1.6s although there have been some reports. the 1.9s need modification even if they are stock.

to compensate for the drag of the supercharger (and to free up power even if you aren't supercharging) drop the AC and power streering. i think the OP said he wasn't going to run those but i don't feel like reading that over..

that quick mock up looks good. keep rockin  :mrgreen:

oh PS: you might want to look into cogged belt setups to drive the S/C and accessories. the normal G60 kits are pricey. not sure if you could adapt one or if you'd have to start fresh. definitely something to look into and try to make work if possible. that was the next mod i had lined up for my G60. i was starting to get into serp belt slippage. with diesel torque this could also be an issue for you.

I know in my case, my t-belt will drive the normal stuff, and my serp belt will run the water pump, alternator, Gcharger, tensioner and to the crank itself.  Almost the same number of accessories as a mk3 TD.  Don't have AC and like the workout of manual racks.  As for progress, I don't have pics, but i do have my mockup head with my manifolds and turbo mounted.  Looks pretty formidable.  Can't find my digi cam or i'd have pics to show.  As for the clearance between the IM pulley/belt and IP gear, I have to shave 3mm off of the bracket to clear the belt in the following pic

[Mk2Fanatic]

Project twin charged Jetta is in full swing... Just got another 86 td with 377K for 250$ Cad needs two doors and a respray.  Mechanically sound.  Guy stop driving it because one day it wouldn't start.  Turns out it was leaking at the little black lines that connect the injectors.  Pump would drain back because of the air leak.  Fixed that and runs great.  Came with a new spare alternator , clutch and starter...  Now I can drive  and work on my project car...  Dropped the complete front suspension and all from the Jetta as well as the donor Passat.

[BlackTieTD]

something like so: http://www.pitstopdevelopments.com/tbelt.htm



G60 kits are out there...


(nice score on that car heh)

[Mk2Fanatic]

something like so: http://www.pitstopdevelopments.com/tbelt.htm



G60 kits are out there...


(nice score on that car heh)

Thanks about the jetta. (Now upto 4 diesels and 1 gasser)  Interesting info on that belt drive setup...

[MikkiJayne]

What about the issues that TDIs have with alternator pulleys? Some G-charger specialists frown on the toothed belt setup because of the increased shock load that they can put on the charger internals, and that's on a gas engine. I would think it would be even worse on a G60 TDI?

I would recommend against buying anything from that company in the link though. I've seen their work  :x

[jtanguay]

if the pulley's were one way only like the TDI alternator pulley, then i wouldn't be worried at all.  no excessive shock load.

[MikkiJayne]

Mm thats the problem - they aren't! You'd have to look at grafting the inside of an alternator pulley on to a G60 pulley  :?

The theory goes that the standard serp belt has enough give in it to handle the shock load, but that the toothed belt, being designed to control precision items like camshafts doesn't have any give in it at all.

Of course we know the TDI serp belt does transmit shock loads with alternators, but the standard G60 seems quite happy with it on a gas engine. I wonder if the combination of TDI and toothed belt would be to much for it?

Of course there's no way of telling other than building one and seeing what it does  :wink:

Mikki x