Possible Headgasket/who knows

[Rising]

Okay so I finally got my rabbit on the road, she's fully together in one piece, passed the state safety inspection and was running great. I ordered the parts for the timing belt replacement and was having a shop do it all this weekend. But last night my wife and I wanted to go out to a movie and I decided it would be fun to run the rabbit up to the movie theater (about 20 mins away) to commemorate her new inspection sticker.

Well after the movie (got out at midnight) I heard a funny noise coming from the engine bay on the way home. so i pulled over immediately and tried to listen and I couldn't really tell where it was coming from but it sounded like the accessory belt was making some extra noise.

I got back in the car and started to pull forward a few feet and the noise stopped suddenly. So i got back out to check and I no longer had an accessory belt. So i jumped in and shut the car down immediately.

I let the car sit for about 15 minutes and then decided to try and get it off the highway (bad decision number 1). so i drove it very easily at about 45-50 mph for about 1.5 miles up to the next exit watching the temp gauge slowly rise (the car was had only been on for maybe 5 minutes total since leaving the movie theater and only about 2 minutes with the belt snapped.) I called my parents and asked if there was any place that might have a belt at this time at night and when we couldn't find any place my dad became convinced we could jury rig something up enough to limp it home (mistake 2).

We tried a couple things and finally got a bungee cord cut to length running the alternator and water pump surprisingly well. So we pulled out and started driving home. After about 5 minutes of driving i noticed the temperature gauge starting to rise to around 3/4's up the gauge and we pulled over again to quickly check what was going on.

The "belt" had come off of the engine and there was some oil over on the far right side of the engine and transmission. Not a ton. But enough to worry me. So at that point i abandoned our makeshift engineering and decided to have it towed home.

But my question is. Could I have just blown my head gasket and or cracked the block or something? I never let the temperature get high at all and the car wasn't driven for more than maybe 3-4 miles. And if not what else could cause oil to be dripping up there? Basically: How bad did i screw my car up over a stupid belt that was going to be changed in a few days anyway

[CRSMP5]

put a belt on and see what happns....  thats my 1st thing to do always in cases like that...

oil... 1st real trip.... id thing the vc gasket/breathr hose is seepnig oil... or the oil pressure switch failed...

next... NEVER try to rig a belt... all it takes is a small piece of te OLD belt to get sucked into the timming belt to ruin your day... it happens way easy by the way... a rigged set up is asking for issues... so before new belt pull crank puly to make sure no belt got sucked in... tends to wrap its self up in there...

[Rising]

put a belt on and see what happns....  thats my 1st thing to do always in cases like that...

oil... 1st real trip.... id thing the vc gasket/breathr hose is seepnig oil... or the oil pressure switch failed...

next... NEVER try to rig a belt... all it takes is a small piece of te OLD belt to get sucked into the timming belt to ruin your day... it happens way easy by the way... a rigged set up is asking for issues... so before new belt pull crank puly to make sure no belt got sucked in... tends to wrap its self up in there...

Yeah I think I learned my lesson for sure. Even if nothing is screwed up it still scared me pretty bad. Just do it right the first time why do I keep having to tell myself that.

How hard is it to pull the crank pulley?

I was going to pay to have someone do the timing belt this weekend but if I do that and then the headgasket is bad ill have to pull it all anyway. Is it worth 200 bucks to have someone do the timing belt if I might have to pull the whole head soon?

How bad is changing the timing belt anyway?

[shwak23]

You can do the timing belt/head gasket your self. But make sure you take your time and be really careful following the directions to a T. For $200 you could buy the tools and parts to complete both jobs.... maybe a little more...

Sent from my DROID X2

[Rising]

Okay I was searching for the tools on here, and i found this thread http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=15221.0 and a couple others. But I didn't want to thread resurrect a thread from 2008. But all the links to the kits people mentioned on those are dead. Does anyone know where to get some timing belt tools on the cheap?

I heard you could buy some things like a socket and a spanner wrench and use them to build a cheap tool kit. Is this true?

[rs899]

I don't think you did any damage.

Check out emiata.com for the timing tools.  Do not be wowed by his prices for much of anything else because it is generally fairly shoddy knock-offs.  Do a search here for "Prothe" for opinions of his stuff.  The timing tools will get you by, though

[billybobf]

from what Ive heard, the stanley 3" hinge, the craftsman 1/4" drive 11mm deep socket, and then the fancy dial indicator and youre good to go.

DONT SKIMP ON THE STANLEY HINGE THOUGH, if it doesnt fit TIGHT do more searching, use shims, whatever it takes to make it PERFECT. I just picked up a core engine that wouldnt fire back up after an IP swap. I think they did EVERYTHING RIGHT except... resetting the cam sprocket timing. I think that a tighter or looser belt changed just enough to smack three valves

[8v-of-fury]

Our temperature guages read from 70C (Coldest reading) to 110C (hottest reading). So you say it was at 3/4, that means it was only at like 100C which isn't extremely high when the highest thermostat is 92C.

I doubt you did anything to the head gasket.. get a belt, fire it up see what happens. Wash the engine down so you can see exactly where the oil is leaking from.

[billybobf]

THE ONLY thing I would like to comment on temps IS, if the water wasnt being PUMPED, other areas of the head may have reached highers temps then the gauge would show, as it wasnt pumping the hotter water over the sender

[8v-of-fury]

oooooh. I totally forgot about the belt not spinning..

The car in question is a rabbit, so that means it has the single wire brass temp sender in the side of the head. It should be just as hot there as any other part of the cylinder head without flowing coolant.. so I would still be fairly certain the gauge was failry close to accurate.

If it were an mk2 however with the plastic gauge in the neck.. it can give false readings easily. If no water present the gauge will not tell you because the sender will cool off. At least the old style senders could tell you the head was heating up as well as the coolant passing through it (or not passing through it lol).

[Dakotakid]

Also, take a damned good look (inspect for play) at the water pump bearings. There may be a very good reason the belt is gone.

[Rising]

Okay I checked everything out and it seemed alright so I went ahead and threw a new belt on it. I've driven it about 70 miles or so since then and it hasn't been an issue. The water temps are still a little high though. Where do you guys usually see your water temps at cruising around 55?

I think i might have found my oil leak in the head gasket. I'll try to get a picture later. But if it isn't too terrible I may try to drive it for another week or so until i can figure out everything i need to do the head gasket and timing belt all in one shot. I really need a good indication of what all is involved in removing the head and changing the gasket. I might do head studs while i'm at it since i am planning on boosting.

Anyone have any links to good write ups for the headgaskets? Should i use an upgraded gasket? ie 1.9 metal gaskets or something? Or just a stock gasket? And if it is leaking from the headgasket is it possible it just isn't torqued correctly and i could tighten the head bolts down a bit?

[8v-of-fury]

Was the motor freshly rebuilt? If not then i doubt the torque of the bolts is the problem.. I mean you could try and give them an extra little bit. There is no need for the 1.9 gasket, it is for power builds and is hard to get to seal.. (ie. you will likely have the same problem). Head studs are also really only a worth while investment if you plan to run over 20psi and plan to take the head off more than three times. And unless you are running a different turbo then what was available stock, you don't want to be running over 20psi either as you will kill the turbo.

Is the oil leak on the front of the block right beneath the water neck? Directly in between cylinders 3 and 4? It is a common spot to leak for some reason, there is an oil drain right there.. however it is not pressurized so i do not see why it leaks.

If the water gauge is not pegged or close to the top but is somewhere at least near the middle, then it is likely it is only a few degrees above normal operating temperature. Getting a mechanical gauge or an infrared thermometer would really help you out here.. as 30 year old electric gauges cannot be trusted at all.

Also if you are at all mechanically inclined a head gasket on these is extremely straight forward. If it is intimidating all you have to remember is, no matter the job it is all just nuts and bolts. Likely 13mm too . It is the procedure that is the trickiest part.

NOW, there are several ways you c an go about this. You can fully remove the head, which you will need to disconnect the exhaust for. Or you can go el-cheapo-taco and only lift the head enough to slide a new gasket in (which admittedly I have done twice before..) and enough room to fit your hand in with a sheet of sand paper to scuff up the mating surface of any left over crap that may be there. If you've got compressed air it would be really handy to spray out the cylinders when you are done. Other than that, anything connecting the engine bay to the head of the engine needs to be removed. Such as;

-Intake tube
-valve cover and gasket, as well as oil breather hose.
-drain the coolant, bottom rad hose off the water pump with 2 10mm bolts, remove thermostat and flush it. Also test the thermo while it is out.
-drain the oil (always a good idea after an overheat as you have likely broken it down and it will not lubricate as good)
-the two coolant hoses, front and side of the head.
-four injector lines, 17mm.
-timing belt and cam sprocket, 15mm on the tensioner and 19mm on the cam sprocket.
-the two small bolts holding the metal timing belt backing plate to the head (year dependent), 10mm.
-assorted wiring for oil pressure sensor and temperature sensor.
-10 head bolts, following the sequence for tightening in reverse with increments on each until finger loose. 12mm triple square.

You've almost got the head off, time to lift it. The exhaust either needs to be removed for complete removal of the head.. or the head will need to be lifted with an engine hoist to be supported mid air whilst you work.

[Rising]

Head studs are also really only a worth while investment if you plan to run over 20psi and plan to take the head off more than three times. And unless you are running a different turbo then what was available stock, you don't want to be running over 20psi either as you will kill the turbo.

Well for starters I am going tonight to pick up a vnt15 and a gasser intake manifold. So I won't be running a stock turbo, i'll be running a vnt with the vanes fully open for now. So i'm guessing around 15 psi? But I'm sure eventually I'll want to turn that up a bit. My goal is around 100hp which i think is possible with around 20psi and a modified pump. but i'm not sure really. So that's why i was considering head studs.

Is the oil leak on the front of the block right beneath the water neck? Directly in between cylinders 3 and 4? It is a common spot to leak for some reason, there is an oil drain right there.. however it is not pressurized so i do not see why it leaks.

Yeah that's where i am seeing the leak. is it that critical that i replace the headgasket right now? Will that cause more issues eventually? Or will it just leak some oil?

Reason i'm asking is it would probably be easier to do the headgasket, timing belt, and turbo swap all at the same time. But I also don't know how long it's going to take to collect all of the other parts i'm going to need for my swap...

NOW, there are several ways you c an go about this. You can fully remove the head, which you will need to disconnect the exhaust for. Or you can go el-cheapo-taco and only lift the head enough to slide a new gasket in (which admittedly I have done twice before..) and enough room to fit your hand in with a sheet of sand paper to scuff up the mating surface of any left over crap that may be there.

This is really a great help to get an idea of what i'm getting myself into. I'm fairly mechanically inclined (I pulled and replaced my subaru's awd transmission) so i don't think that this will be that bad. I've just always been afraid of timing and that has prevented me from tearing down my engines in the past. But it's probably time to just suck it up and do it I'll probably just take the whole head off. A. Because i don't have an engine hoist and B. because It'll give me a chance to do a quick mock up of the turbo setup and start figuring out what i need to do to get it in, and where i need to send this downpipe.

[8v-of-fury]

I have for sure heard of 20psi running safely on fiber gaskets and stock head bolts. You should be a-ok with stock stuff no problem. I wouldn't waste the money.

The oil leak is most certainly not a critical spot, however it would be wise to make sure it is not leaking towards the trans at all. If the oil gets down in between the block and bell housing and gets on the clutch disk it will wreck it in short order. Had one fail from this same issue in 3 weeks. I had a heavy leak though. If you just make sure it drains away from there, you will be alright to fix that one at your convenience.

There are MANY great threads on how to do your own timing, so n oworries. Its literally impossible to screw up with these instructions. Google this; Vince Waldon How-to set your injection pump timing.