Author Topic: Weird bearing issue with new bearings. need suggestions (Read 15147 times)

Smokey Eddy · « **on:** November 22, 2008, 09:11:27 pm »

I just honed and re-ringed my pistons.
Putting them back in with a friend we found it was very difficult to turn the crank with a breaker bar (that 19mm bolt on the end of the crank) with just one of the pistons in. But it was do-able.

we did number 2 and 3 and now come time to get # four in it's impossible to turn the crank...
Niether of us are strong enough to do it.
we tried using the starter to do it, it can't do it.

We know we could tow the car very slowly to get the crank in the right possition to get the last piston in there but I'm a little scared that i've done something horribly wrong.

New bearings are in place and everything is very well oiled. I got covered in oil lying under the car as my friend get the cylinder walls oiled up for the pistons and i did so oiling the bearings and the con rod and crank.

Any ideas? experiences?

My course of action for tomorrow is going to be to drag the car backwards in reverse gear slowly until the piston can get onto the crank, then once it's on torque all the nuts down and slowly pull it in 5th periodically slapping oil on everything including down the cylinders.

the whole block is bare. It's just the block & crank. The head is off obviously and the oil pan is off ect.

What should i do?

burn_your_money · « **Reply #1 on:** November 22, 2008, 09:21:33 pm »

I would recommend not pulling the car around in gear

Smokey Eddy · « **Reply #2 on:** November 22, 2008, 09:29:09 pm »

i just tried to get the three con rod caps OFF and i can't get them off now ....

burnt_servo · « **Reply #3 on:** November 22, 2008, 09:29:46 pm »

my guess is carbon deposites behind the rings .

the next thing i'd look at , with used pistons , the old rings can sometimes leave a bit of a burr or ledge where they wear on the piston .

install new rings without at least smoothing out the ledge / burr and the new rings want to sit where the old rings used to sit , only problem is the face of the new rigs isn't worn , and is forced into the cylinder causing binding .

btw when you take the motor apart again , wash the pistons and rings in laquer thinner , blow them off and asemble them dry . same goes for the cylinders , wipe them down removing all the oil .

doing this will cause the rings to properly seat much easier and faster , and elimating glazing the cylinder walls .

things will only be dry for a few seconds after the initial fire up .

btw make sure you use asembly oil on the bearings .

burnt_servo · « **Reply #4 on:** November 22, 2008, 09:32:15 pm »

Quote from: "Smokey Eddy"

i just tried to get the three con rod caps OFF and i can't get them off now ....

did you put the bearing caps on the right way , both rods and mains ?

Smokey Eddy · « **Reply #5 on:** November 22, 2008, 10:13:44 pm »

well i was doing it with my friend and i think what he calls cylinder #1 i call #4.

So the caps may be on backwards.

I did wash everything in laquer thinner but i know to use oil when putting pistons in to prevent breaking them.

I got the caps off with vice grips :roll:

I'll try putting the caps on in the reverse order and see if it turns easier. I took cap #4 and put it on the piston that is in the #1 possition and it turned much more pleasantly.

Is there a big problem to having the pistons back to front? 4 is where 1 used to be

2 and 3 are reversed and so on.

ps. im using conventional oil for proper ring seating instead of using synthetic.

Smokey Eddy · « **Reply #6 on:** November 22, 2008, 10:25:53 pm »

phew! my arms are getting sore!
I just reveresed the order of all the rod caps and the number "95" is upside down when reading them off of the rod caps from under the car with my legs sticking out the front.

can anyone check that that is the way they should be?

it is easy as pie to turn with the nuts loose on the caps but as soon as i get them ratchet tight (so the ratchet clicks) its near impossible to turn.

im going to try putting all the rod caps so that "95" is the right way up reading it with me legs out the car.
If that doesn't work then i'll reverse the order of the caps to the way they were the first time i thought they were correct.

If anyone can give me a way of telling what way they are supposed to be it would save me a lot of trouble. If not i'll keep going at it!!!!

burnt_servo · « **Reply #7 on:** November 22, 2008, 10:31:19 pm »

the notches on the bearings go on the same side .

Smokey Eddy · « **Reply #8 on:** November 22, 2008, 10:41:47 pm »

Oooooooooooooo
okay Thanks!!!

Smokey Eddy · « **Reply #9 on:** November 23, 2008, 12:06:55 am »

That's why im asking here.

It is VERY hard to turn with the con rod caps hand tight.

I have to use a breaker bar to turn it and its exhausting.

Why is it like this???

All i did is put the pistons in. One piston in particular is hard to turn the others, how ever are still difficult, are not quite so as the last one i put in.
I know something is wrong and im asking wtf is wrong!!!
I'm trying to give as many details as i can!

honed, new rings, new bearings. Thats IT. crank is easy to turn by its self. one piston was hard to put in i had to mallet it down with a piece of wood. Should i take the last one out? could a ring be broken?
I've forced it through probably 6 revolutions (of the crank) and i can't see any lines from broken rings. They seal exceptionally well. I put oil in the cylinder to ease the movement and none of it (well almost none) as gone past the rings. Since making sure all the caps were the right way around it has gotten easier to turn but i still have to use a breaker bar.

There is one section of the rotation that is particularily difficult. a very small amount. Maybe 15 degrees of the whole revolution is very difficult.
From what i can tell #3 and #2 are just past the bottom of the stroke and are just starting to go back up at that point.

when all 4 are the closest to the head it is the easier to turn and VERY easy to turn at that. I always smash my nuckles when im pushing hard for the hard point and it zips to the easy part and i smash my hands on the A arm.

ps. if you have the pistons back to front from what they were can you have issues with that even though i changed the bearings on the con rods?
could that be causing my problems? (i don't see how though, the rings are what touch the cylinders not the pistons them selves.

Smokey Eddy · « **Reply #10 on:** November 23, 2008, 12:46:16 am »

Ahhh
Thank you Andrew.
We'll, they are oriented correctly in the sense that they are facing the right way in regards to the rod. Thanks to burnt servo.

They could be however
cap 1 with rod 4
cap 2 with rod 3
cap 3 with rod 2
cap 4 with rod 1

So i'll switch those around again now that they are oriented correctly.
Thanks so much for the input!

Patrick · « **Reply #11 on:** November 23, 2008, 08:28:00 am »

The rods and rod caps should be numbered/marked somehow to make sure you can't mix them up, either numbered 1,2, 3, 4 or maybe dots..... In the future, never more than one cap off a rod at a time........

Vincent Waldon · « **Reply #12 on:** November 23, 2008, 01:46:41 pm »

100X as per the previous suggestions above... 99 times out of 100 a tight bottom end means one or more main or rod caps got interchanged...

Mark'em with a punch before you remove 'em... same with the camshaft BTW :wink:

Another thought is that you've got the wrong bearings and/or one or more is mis-labeled etc... Plastigauge will help sort it out if need be.

burn_your_money · « **Reply #13 on:** November 23, 2008, 02:24:45 pm »

What is your piston ring end gap?

Smokey Eddy · « **Reply #14 on:** November 23, 2008, 02:58:43 pm »

Quote from: "Patrick"

The rods and rod caps should be numbered/marked somehow to make sure you can't mix them up, either numbered 1,2, 3, 4 or maybe dots..... In the future, never more than one cap off a rod at a time........

Yeah i thought they were marked. You can see a trace of many paint? but it doesn't tell me anything. They are either backwards or the right way right now. I kept them in order i just don't know now which end is 1 or 4. Know what i mean?

I really hope the bearings aren't the wrong ones. They have oil holes where the old one's didn't. there are holes in the crank for oil so i didn't think they were wrong. I bought them as bearings for MY engine...
anyone know if the bearings with holes aren't the same thickness as ones without? If i had digital calipers i would check. I don't have plastigauge either i guess i could buy some...
But i'll swap the caps around right now and see if that does it. IF it's still impossible to turn with he nuts tight then I guess i got the wrong bearings... (totally sucks if that's the case)

Don't know if this link will work but this is where i got them. I got the "Standard" ones...
http://catalog.worldpac.com/marks/wizard.jsp?header=http://www.bestpricecarparts.com/cdnheader.txt&footer=http://www.bestpricecarparts.com/cdnfooter.txt&partner=marks&clientid=importcarpartscanada.ca&baseurl=http://www.importcarpartscanada.ca/&cookieid=0691641042IO0W2J7Y&year=1990&make=VW&model=JET-D-001&category=All&part=Rod+Bearing+Set