Author Topic: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ  (Read 328167 times)

Reply #165June 12, 2019, 01:52:03 pm

Dino

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Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
« Reply #165 on: June 12, 2019, 01:52:03 pm »
Hello.
I'll try to share what I know about some injection pump.

Hi, where I live theres several vans and cars running factory m-tdi setup, Ive stripped a few and the di camplate seems very similar to the vw, can I use the gov and principle levers from one of these pumps instead of modding my own? They seem to be pre modified although I havent made a gabarit to check the principle lever travel heres a pic of the governor levers. All the factory m-tdi governor levers I've seen dont seem to use an intermediate spring in the assembly?
[/img]

Quote from: dts67

vw m-tdis ? you got more info on this .
 that governor lever on the left lookes like a transit di one
i have done my control lever in a difrant way , but serves the same movment to the control spool

@snakemaster- No, not vws, so far rover 2.0d and transit I've stripped but seen others. The lever is from a rover but the transits looks the same.
@hey- I'm near sure it is, I'll check tomorrow. I'm trying to get a di camplate working in an idi engine (1.9 psa xud), I've read nearly all your 'english' posts and know roughly what to do, you mentioned setting the break point of the injectors to match the camplate, thats no problem but do I then need pre-injection and 2 spring injectors? I've had the car running with an afn di camplate in the pump but the principle lever travel is to short and the engine is LOUD with injectors @175 bar :lol:

I looked for all those pumps but I wasn't very lucky.
You can find Ford Transit injection pumps but they aren't cheap. They're used to replace the lucas EPIC pumps.
I don't know what cars the other pumps are from.
I think Austin-Rover.
If I'm not wrong somebody fit a pump from a car by that brand.It takes to add a spacer to fit on a VW engine.
Probably the pump was from a Maestro-Montego.
There are other Rover DI engines made later but pumps are L and not R, they are from Rover SDI.
I know that engines are by Perkins, I don't what are the differences.
Industrial engine by Perkins are called Prima, probably is the same engine of Maestro-Montego .
Perkins marine engine are sold by Volvo as Penta.
Does anybody know if there a suitable pump and its Bosch number?
Does anybody know the L pumps performance and setting?
Can it be a good idea to use one as a donor pump?
What parts are suitable both for a L and R pump?
I think the body isn't suitable because timing advance is on the opposite side.
Waht else? the camplate?
The rest is universal or not?
Thank you very much.
P.S. If you look for a Kia Carnival on U.K. ebay you must look for Kia Sedona.
That's why I never found one. Somewhere that car is called Sedona.

Reply #166June 14, 2019, 01:28:12 pm

Dino

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Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
« Reply #166 on: June 14, 2019, 01:28:12 pm »
Hello.
I've some question about mechanical pump for DI.
What about Ducato pumps? Have they got the right pump housing and shaft to fit on standart sprocket and pulley?

For those which have the possibility of it, there exists in Europe several pump ' ' specific DI' ' which is a direct swap, some witch the good alignment of pulley and rev over 4200rpm and this, in 10,11 and 12mm head plunger, ex: peugeot boxer 2.5TDI, fiat ducato 2.5 (some fiat use a TDI 1Z came plate with a 11mm head), Kia 2.9L DOHC, VW transporter 2.8 TDI, etc...... some of this pumps are not proper aligment pulley, there exist a different hub pulley for proper aligment,  that can avoid machinage.


I remember something about some "hybrid" or "Franken "pumps.
DI pumps are from turbo Sofim engines used on vans and light trucks like Fiat Ducato,Peugeot Boxer,Citroen Jumper,Renault Master-Mascotte,Iveco Daily.
Hydraulic heads have 11 and 12mm plungers.
NA engines are all IDI.
Sofim engines were used on cars too but they were all IDI engines even if turbos.
If I'm not wrong somewhere there's a thread about a "Franken" pump composed by a Fiat Croma or Lancia Thema(2.5 turbo IDI Sofim engines) pump and a kia one.
Why?
Because can't the Kia pump fit without using another pulley and some parts machining?
Croma and Thema 2.5 pump housing is right?
If I'm not wrong Sofim engines were used on spanish Santanas 4WD, a Land Rover under license, polish Lublins and russian Uaz too.
I don't know if they are CDI or they use electronic pumps, I think somewhere is told about a Uaz pump for M-TDI.I don't remeber the code but on a catalogue was a Daily pump.
I saw just one old ducato pump but it wasn't right for VW sprocket and pulley.
That's why I have many doubts.
Thank you all for yuor help.
I don't know if there's a VW factory mechanical pump.
I rember to have seen on an industrial engines catalogue TDIs with electronic pumps and a NA engine with a mechanical pump. It was written DI.
I tried to find that engine again. I think it was used on Sthil forklift but I have no other infos.
Maybe the brochure was wrong and it was an IDI engine.
That's alla I know.
Sorry if there can be errors.
There are hydraulic heads with 10mm plunger on IDI engine too, some Themas for exemple or some NA Ducatos.
Are those heads good for  DI pumps building too?

Sorry,I was wrong about factory mechanical pump.
There's an industrial egine,its code is SD 1.9 436MC,with a mechanical pump but the compression ratio is to high to be a DI engine,it's an IDI engine.
Somewhere N/A IDI engines are callaed SDI, I think that those catalogues are wrong.
I can't find old threads and posts about Prima engines pumps.
I found the ones where those pumps are used for parts and the one where it's said about the spacer to fit them on VW engines but no pictures or other details.
I remember that somewhere it's written about Perkins Prima pumps that use the same TDI camplates.
Some Prima pumps codes:
Mark    Type    Part number               Applications                                                 Engine    
bosch    VE    0460414029 VE R 228    Leyland Sherpa 200 46 kw Rover Maestro 2.0 D 46 kw         Perkins Prima 65 Perkins Prima 65
bosch    VE    0460414030 VE R 229    Rover M., Montego 2.0 TD 60 kw        Perkins Prima 80 T     
bosch    VE    0460414041 VE R 266    Perkins 500 37 kw        500 , 504 – 2 LR     
bosch    VE    0460414053 VE R 290    Perkins        PRIMA 4000 NA     
bosch    VE    0460414092 VE R 275/2    Perkins Prima GR 500 29 kw        Gemini TCI D.I.     
bosch    VE    0460414093 VE R 462    Land Rover Defender 2.5TD 83 kw        Perkins Prima 80 T
Are there 2,5 liters Prima engine too?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 05:07:31 pm by Dino »

Reply #167June 26, 2019, 06:12:07 pm

Dino

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Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
« Reply #167 on: June 26, 2019, 06:12:07 pm »
Hello.
I decided to make a list with all TDI camplates but I haven't got the whole list of TDI injection pumps.
I'd like to use the list to find mechanical pumps with the same camplates.
We already know the camplate from the 11mm injection pump from automatic transmission cars.
0460414987    VE4/11E2075R712-2
That's the camplate: 2 466 110 143 or 2466110143 or DE143.
There are other eight pumps,I found the list at a shop on line,some pump diagrams are missing.
0460414989    VE4/11E2075R712-1
0460414990    VE4/11E2075R712
Those are electronic pumps,the next pumps are mechanical.
0460424219    VE4/12F1600R885 
I think it's froma a N/A engine.
Then the pumps with LDA.
0460424247    VE4/12F1800R918
0460424353    VE4/12F1800R918-1
0460424371    VE4/12F1800R918-2
The last two pumps are still to check because no diagrams avaiable.
0460424529    VE4/12F1150R1174
0460424533    VE4/12F1800R1182
Do you other 11mm pumps or different camplates?
We already know the cameplate saw in the diagram of the 0460404959    VE4/10E2075R700-1 pump.
2 466 110 110 or 2466110110 or DE110.
Other electronic pumps from SDI/TDI.
0460404961    VE4/10E2250R728-4
0460404964    VE4/10E2250R640-3
0460404966    VE4/10E2250R728
0460404977    VE4/10E2075R700
I read that there are many pumps with that camplate.
Do you know other TDI pumps?
I found two mechanical injection pumps with the same camplate.
0460414135 and 0460414165.
I found a TDI pump with a different camplate.
0460404971    VE4/10E2250R510-3
2 466 110 015 or 2466110015 or DE015.
I found two mechanical pump with tehe same camplate,they are from Sofim engines.
0460414091    VE4/11F1900R444
0460414110    VE4/11F1900R522-1
I saw an used pump from Audi 80TDI on sale,that's the code: 0460404995    VE4/10E2250R440-1
There is the same camplate.
I can't find pumps by part numbers unfortunately.
I read of another camplate from 10mm TDI pumps,DE056.
Who knows it?
2 466 110 056 or 2466110056?




« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 07:37:54 pm by Dino »

Reply #168October 19, 2019, 03:02:00 pm

zehair

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Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
« Reply #168 on: October 19, 2019, 03:02:00 pm »
i just wanted to add some pumps to the list of parts numbers worth searching for. most off them are euro cars though

0 460 424 138 vw LT 2.8 12mm
0 460 414 156 peugeot 2.5 tdi 11mm
0 460 424 164 Fiat Ducato 2.8 tdi 12mm
0 460 414 128 Fiat Ducato 2.5 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 193 Kia Carnival 2.9 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 191 Kia Carnival 2.9 tdi 11mm the one im curently using
0 460 414 099 Land Rover 300 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 098 Land Rover 200 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 054 Iveco Daily 2.5 DI 11mm

GL with the hunt


I think I had seen your youtube chanel, but how many HP your pump 2.9tdi gives you ?

Reply #169June 11, 2020, 08:29:08 pm

Chuck1978

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Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
« Reply #169 on: June 11, 2020, 08:29:08 pm »
I looked through this FAQ and did not see a specific list of the custom bits necessary to use the Land Rover 300TDI injection pump on an AHU and an ALH.  I figured I'd add that list.

AHU:
The snout hole in the pump mounting bracket needs to be enlarged for the larger snout of the LR pump.

Because the LR pump does not have slotted mounting holes, you need to make some accommodation for timing adjustment.  My preference is to use the ALH sprocket and hub.  If you use the ALH sprocket and hub then you either need to use slightly sprocket to hub bolts that are slightly shorter than the stock ALH bolts or trim the pump case slightly where the timing pin goes.  If you use the stock ALH sprocket to hub bolts (which are single-use) without clearancing the pump case they will hit.  Another option is to file the pump mounting holes so they are slots.  If you make the pump mounting holes into slots, you can use the AHU sprocket. 
 
The plate that catches the 4th pump mounting bolt by the injection lines needs to be changed.  I've used the 1.6 plate which requires 2 additional holes to be drilled for mounting to the distributor head.

The LR delivery valves are longer.  The two options are to either swap the delivery valves for short ones or bend the metal lines to fit the LR delivery valves.  I've used TDI delivery valves and 1.6 delivery valves and either work fine and will fit the stock ALH injection lines.  I have also bent the metal fuel lines and have not had any issues after thousands of miles of use.  The downside to swapping valves is the fact that you need to source the valves and/or take them from a working pump destroying its value.  The downside to bending the lines is that if you ever have to replace a line you will need to bend that one as well.

ALH:

The LR pump snout is the correct diameter to fit the ALH pump mounting bracket.  The ALH pump mounting holes are threaded to accept the m8 bolts that fit through from the sprocket side.  The LR holes are not threaded and are too large to tap to the m8 size.  I tapped them to m10 and got the correct length m10 bolts which just barely fit through the bracket. 

The other necessary changes are the same as written in the AHU section.  The delivery valve length issue and the plate for the 4th pump mounting bolt need to be addressed.

When timing these, some mechanics have told me on the IDI's, that they can basically time them  by ear with moving the pump on the slotted mounting bracket holes.  Is this a big advantage of having the slotted pump mounts vs the slotted ALH sprocket/hub?  Is it possible to time these by ear with slotted pump mounting bracket holes while the engine is running?  just slightly snug and a rap with a rubber mallet?  To get them from a noisy clackety diesel to the point where it starts to quiet down like an eTDI I assume is the sound you're going for...

Also, will the AHU/1Z sprocket work on the Land Rover Bosch VE pumps the same as the ALH sprocket/hub?

I have the ALH sprocket and a Landy 300TDI pump, but just curious if there is a big advantage when timing it by ear to use the slotted bracket instead of slotted sprocket. 


Also, does anyone have any recommendations of dial gauge adapters for timing, or even a complete kit of the timing tools and locking pins that would work the full range from my 1983  1.6TD-IDI & '82 1.6D, my 2002 eTDI Jetta Wagon, and my 2003 Passat mTDI with Land Rover 300TDI pump? Or multiple kits?

Reply #170June 11, 2020, 08:46:10 pm

Chuck1978

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Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
« Reply #170 on: June 11, 2020, 08:46:10 pm »
i just wanted to add some pumps to the list of parts numbers worth searching for. most off them are euro cars though

0 460 424 138 vw LT 2.8 12mm
0 460 414 156 peugeot 2.5 tdi 11mm
0 460 424 164 Fiat Ducato 2.8 tdi 12mm
0 460 414 128 Fiat Ducato 2.5 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 193 Kia Carnival 2.9 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 191 Kia Carnival 2.9 tdi 11mm
(the one im curently using)
0 460 414 099 Land Rover 300 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 098 Land Rover 200 tdi 11mm
0 460 414 054 Iveco Daily 2.5 DI 11mm


GL with the hunt

Can anyone elaborate on this Kia Carnival 2.9L mini-van pump being used on a VW TDI?  JFKO???

Does this mount just the same as the Land Rover pumps? 
EDIT - this has slotted unthreaded adjustable mounting holes like the AHU/1Z and older IDI pumps, but has the 68mm nose that fits right into the ALH front pump mounting bracket.  Running an AHU/1Z 1pc sprocket is a direct fit.  To fit these on an AHU or 1Z, the front mounting bracket still needs opened up to 68mm by a machinist.  The rear mounting bracket needs to be AHU, 1Z, or older VW IDI, or the Kia bracket adapted to the mTDI swap.  The AHU/1Z sprocket will require the pump to be able to be rotated in place for adjustment vs the ALH 2pc pump sprocket/hub assembly

These things seem far more plentiful on eBay in Spain exclusively, vs the Land Rover pumps worldwide. 

Being off of a 2.9L engine vs the Land Rover being on a 2.5L engine, it has a little more aggressive camplate, but still has the same governor settings, and need the governor mod similar that the 300TDI pumps need in order to run the full range of RPM's that the stock VW engines run.  They will run quite well at lower RPM as stock though, but will start tapering off the fuel delivery nearing 4000rpm...

« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 12:57:44 pm by Chuck1978 »

Reply #171June 11, 2020, 11:21:19 pm

Chuck1978

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Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
« Reply #171 on: June 11, 2020, 11:21:19 pm »
More info on the Kia 2.9L pump:


From a 2009 thread:
http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,22191.15.html
gigaz2: 11mm plunger, good camplate, accelerator position sensor (for the vnt controller), sweet
golftd412000: it's a good pump and the came plate is the hightest namedtintin have tested this came in her tdi-m
gigaz2: aggressive camplate, lots of pressure, I'll be getting some bigger injectors around .260
gigaz2: the nose where the pulley goes seems correct, but the body of the pump needs a 68mm hole to be mounted, vw uses 50mm
burn_your_money: The VW pumps with 2 piece pulleys use a 68mm mounting
blackdogvan: I think they are very similar to the rover pumps. 
Baxter: AAZ pumps, there are a few variants (I stopped counting at 14 different part numbers) but the crap one, the one with the PWM modulated timing advance control on the bottom has a bigger mounting hole, unsure of the size, but it's for the pumps with the vernier pulley to set the timing, infact, thinking about it, the later T4 (Eurovan) has a similar pump, so i should imaging brackets from the "ABL" coded engine could also be suitable.
oldskool rich: VW use lucas pumps on some engines they have a bigger bracket hole, that's what i used for my disco 1Z, if that's what u mean, i also used the pulley off an ALH slightly modified

Edit - the Carnival is known as the Kia Sedona in the US market, but we did not get the diesel of course, in typical american tradition, only the big trucks get the diesels since VW Dieselgate...

Kia Carnival I 2.9 TDi Engine Technical Data
Compression Ratio :   18.9
Maximum power - Output - Horsepower :   126 PS or 124 bhp or 93 kW @ 3600 rpm
Maximum torque :   331 Nm or 244 lb.ft @ 2000 rpm[/i]


Here are extended part #'s for both of the Kia Carnival 2.9L mTDI pumps. I believe 1999-2001?

0460414191    VE4/11F2000R790-1

0460414193    VE4/11F2000R790-2

I don't know if there are other pumps for this engine. There's another "R790" but can't say where it's from.
0460414178    VE4/11F2000R790

And also this other Bosch # 0 460 414 207 comes up as same application for the 0 460 414 191, but I have not compared parts whatsoever to know the difference.

I looked for the cam plate and I found the application list from an online shop.
0460424313 ; 0460424251 ; 0460424242 ; 0460424241 ; 0460424233 ; 0460414247 ; 0460414246 ; 0460414242 ; 0460414239 ; 0460414219 ; 0460414218 ; 0460414216 ; 0460414215 ; 0460414211 ; 0460414210 ; 0460414207 ; 0460414193 ; 0460414191 ; 0460414178
It might be a good swap part for more serious performance oriented pump tuning.





-------------------------------------------------------


It looks like this 12mm pump, "0 460 424 237" uses the same pump body/housing as these above, so perhaps it is a good candidate for higher horsepower ALH mTDI builds?  Looks like it came in a Ford Ranger with the 2.9L 0 460 424 237 diesel engine, around the model year 2000.  I wonder if it's the same 2.9L engine in the Kia Carnival???l
VE4/12F1900R905-1
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 11:37:22 pm by Chuck1978 »

Reply #172June 11, 2020, 11:47:46 pm

Chuck1978

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Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
« Reply #172 on: June 11, 2020, 11:47:46 pm »
And here's a nice listing of Bosch VE pump part numbers and corresponding vehicle applications:

https://vdocuments.site/download/fuel-injection-pump-product-model-list

http://dl.vdocuments.site/download/7ec4bf69d021a7dfd09e419730172160e0ba21782a729cbcada9ae92847cff8cf4b4f640ba9f0b26863e3f705e24d052e8d0bc608bbebd49d635891fa350b9a474atxxz5IcH0S5wUHorlMqQE4m7kDqgODcIpfpF2yvSrogMFYFBjoRBxG5ABU+HOBQwvJIiFsUb0sWCZImuRGk75Qu5Irf%2Fdcomn4I4UTIo%3D

It's actually showing the Land Rover 200TDI pump as a different/additional part number than I had saved,
0 460 414 069 E RR 0459 VE4/11F2000R347 ROVER 200 TDI

as these are the two Bosch part numbers I had saved that were supposed to be for 200TDI and then 300TDI:
0 460 414 098 E RR4419 VE4/11F2000R509 ROVER/FORD Gemini-TCI D.I.23L
0 460 414 099 E RR4046 VE4/11F2000R509-1 ROVER 19L
The 23L engine designation says it's a 300TDI with EGR, my prior info from VWDiesel.net said that was a 200TDI pump...
The 19L engine designation says it's a 300TDI with EDC, the drive by wire Rover pump... triple check your info folks...
Another listing http://www.vepump.cn/CZB.htm shows the 0 460 414 099 as a 23L, the listing I referenced above shows it as a 19L...
It additionally lists the 0 460 414 080 AND THE 0 460 414 136 as a 23L...triple check your info folks...

That later link shows the 0 460 414 991 VE4/11E2000R500 as being a 19L, 21L, 22L, and 23L pump 10/1993 - 12/1998... as well as the 0 460 414 997

Wikipedia shows the 23L as EDC drive-by-wire:
 These engines (designated 23L) had Bosch Electronic Diesel Control systems, where the mechanical injector system was controlled by a drive-by-wire electronic throttle to reduce emissions.



More info from my Microcat LR parts info -- 300TDI engine prefix

16L 1995 model year Defender
17L Discovery &/or RRC EDC Manual
18L ----------------------------- EDC Manual/DeToxed
19L ----------------------------- EDC Auto
20L ----------------------------- EDC Auto DeToxed

21L ----------------------------- EGR Manual
22L------------------------------- EGR Auto
23L Defender EGR.

200TDI engine prefix = 11L & 12L

Some other Land Rover 300TDI info:
https://www.landroverexpedition.com/engines/300tdi/
    Years produced: 1994 - 2006
    Power: 111 bhp (83 kW)
    Torque: 195 lb/ft (264 N/m)
    Fuel: Diesel
    Capacity: 2495cc (2.5 litres)
    Cylinders: 4
    Serial code prefix:
        16L (non EGR), 23L (EGR), 24L (EGR Auto) Defender
        17L/18L (EDC Manual), 19L/20L (EDC Auto), 21L (EGR Manual), 22L (EGR Auto) Discovery/Range Rover Classic
(The EDC engine has a different fuel injection pump which is a drive by wire electronic pump as opposed to the accelerator steel cable. It is more common on the Discovery 300TDI)

Going by this, the 16L seems to be the version of 300TDI engines whose pump would be the most desired basic version, and the 21L through 24L 300TDI versions would also be nearly the same but with slightly different timing spec (EGR versions) and a throttle position sensor on the top of the throttle linkage shaft.

http://dieselevante.it shows:
0 460 414 069   VE R 347 as being Land Rover 200 TDI
0 460 414 099   VE R 509/1 as being Land Rover 19L 300 TDI...


Soooooo much misinformation and so many questionably erroneous listings here, especially when trying to figure out the different versions of the 300TDI vs Bosch pump numbers...

So the Land Rover pump that I have appears to be a non-EGR (no Throttle Position Sensor, unless it was removed) has stamped:
0 460 414 136
R509-3

21404

coincidentally, http://dieselevante.it lists that pump as Ford F 1000 2.5 70 kw, but Google searching brings up Rover application info as well... so many discrepancies everywhere.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 11:59:18 pm by Chuck1978 »

Reply #173June 15, 2020, 11:55:59 pm

Chuck1978

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Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
« Reply #173 on: June 15, 2020, 11:55:59 pm »
Some Bosch VE code deciphering:

Part # format: 0 460 414 099

0 = Denotes complete product
460 = Product class, Distributor pump
4 = Identifier for VE Injection pump
1 = Plunger Diameter: 8=8mm,9=9mm,0=10mm,1=11mm,2=12mm,3=13mm & 4=14mm
4 = Number of Cylinders
099 = Specific Application Number

Additional numbers on the pump include the OEM manufacturer's part # as well, and others.


Example:
V E 4 / 9 F 2400 L 12

V: Distributor injection pump
E: Axial piston high pressure pump or R: radial piston high pressure pump
2-6: Number of high pressure outlets
8-12: Pump plunger diameter in mm.
F: Mechanical governor or E: Electric actuator mechanism or M: high pressure solenoid valve.
2400: Upper pump nominal speed (half of engine rpm)
L: Counter clockwise or R: Clockwise (view toward pump drive)
12: Type code.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 01:05:39 pm by Chuck1978 »

Reply #174June 16, 2020, 12:13:23 am

Chuck1978

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Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
« Reply #174 on: June 16, 2020, 12:13:23 am »
And here's a link with a lot of info on some European Ford Transit van Bosch VE injection pumps similar to the Land Rover 300TDI pumps, especially in that they don't impress much until you modify the governor in them!  I think I read that they just have one long governor spring, which I read of this person saying they tied several of the coils together with thin stainless steel wire or something of that sort, to shorten the spring and make it stiffer, and it ran much higher RPM's happily after that?  I probably would have just looked into a substitute spring myself, or just cutting and bending the end to shorten it.

https://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=184873&c=1

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List of Bosch VE injection pumps and vehicle fitment and model numbers http://www.vepump.cn/CZB.htm

Ford Transit Engine codes https://www.idealengines.co.uk/engine-codes.asp?make_id=15&mo_id=31290&part_id=517&pname=ford-transitdiesel-engine-codes

Bosch vehicle search http://www.bosch-automotive-catalog.com/en_GB/

Bosch VE injection pump exploded view parts catalogue http://dieselcatalog.online/en/bosch/0460/0460414119.html

Bosch VE injection pump rebuild picture guide https://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6694

Bosch VE injection pump stripdown video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_01gEg2ZMwg

Bosch VE injection pump rebuild video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkDsEQx82do

Bosch VE injection pump operation video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqBlqdeP3uE

Bosch VE injection pump calibration video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNVLw4WRJdU

Bosch VE injection pump Bosch manual http://gershon.ucoz.com/BOSCH/DIESEL/pumpsVE/Bosch_VE_Pumps.pdf

Bosch Ve injection pump governor (interesting cut away pump video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j0vrfaXPmw

List of similar links, lots for 306 forum posts on tuning Bosch VE injection pump Scroll down page to VE injection pump section
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6136470-Repairing-Bosch-VE-Pumps-Manuals-References-etc

For tuning info Peugeot forums, Land Rover forums, Cummins forums; any vehicle that has the Bosch VE injection pump fitted and has a forum will probably have lots of info.



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If there is a 14 mm hexagon socket in the pump cover, a 16 bar pressure gauge is connected to this fitting, the motor is started and, by unscrewing the connector, the pressure is measured at various engine speeds.
It is sufficient to perform measurements at 1000 rpm and at 4000 rpm.
The pressure at 1000 rpm of the ENGINE should be about 5.5 bar, at 4000 rpm-9 ... 10 bar.
In the fuel pump with different numbers, the pressure may vary slightly.
If there is no fitting, then you need to make the fitting yourself.
I have not made such a fitting yet, but there is a plan.
Pressure in bars.
To increase the pressure in the body of the injection pump, it is necessary to strike the plug in the channel of the regulating valve through a steel rod with a diameter of 6 mm.
To reduce the pressure, you need to measure the depth of the plug in the channel and unscrew the regulating valve from the pump casing.
nstall the valve so that its internal parts can fall into the well depth of about 10 ... 12 mm and a diameter of 7 ... 8 mm.
And blow the hammer through the rod to knock out of the valve channel a spring ring stopper, a cylindrical piston about 5 mm high and a spring.
Then turn the valve over and through the opened channel to remove the plug to the level of the valve body.
Insert the spring, piston into the valve and hammer the ring stopper into place with a light hammer blow.
Install the valve on the injection pump, start the engine and hit the hammer with the hammer, pour the plug to the required pressure at 1000 rpm.
If the pump is OK, the required pressure will be set automatically at 4000 rpm.

Video of testing and adjusting the running pressure of the pump:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkHMcSENfOw


EDIT - from another post on here from fatmobile:
Bosch service center guy said these specs are way too high and could crack the pump.
 79.77psi @ is probably double what it should be at 1000 engine RPM.


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Recommendations for replacing the Ford Epic fuel pump on the injection pump Bosch in French.
http://www.giordanobenicchi.it/camper/FORD/EPIC_686.htm

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Test plan in Russian for injection pump 0 460 414 153
http://dieselmastera.ru/_fr/60/ESI_PW_1.pdf
Test plan in Russian for injection pump with turbo corrector
0 460 414 154.
http://dieselmastera.ru/_fr/60/ESI_PW.pdf
Injection pump Bosch VЕ 0 460 414 154 for the Turkish FT OTOSAN
100 horsepower.

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« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 02:09:27 pm by Chuck1978 »

Reply #175June 19, 2020, 07:39:42 pm

Chuck1978

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Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
« Reply #175 on: June 19, 2020, 07:39:42 pm »
More pertinent mTDI notes I have copied and pasted from various forums and FB Groups:

libbydiesel on 26 Feb, 2019 22:20
I don't know whether the pump is a 200 or 300TDI pump, but it is one of the two.  Set up stock they will rev up over 4,000 rpms. 
Make sure that the hub is installed correctly on the pump shaft and isn't 180° out.  The hub needs to be installed so that the slot in the hub aligns with the hole in the pump when the keyway in the pump shaft is point to the #1 cylinder delivery valve.  *****The stock land rover hub is installed 180° out of time.  In that situation it will still run but will lack power.  I don't know that it would be limited to 2100 rpms, though.  A good baseline timing spec is then 1.40mm for that pump.Definitely weird that it was limited to ~2100.  Did it rev above that when in 'neutral' or was there not any neutral on the boat install?  The pump could certainly have been set up incorrectly on the rebuild.  Governor could be wrong.  The camplate could be installed 180° out of time.  Another thing that comes to mind is to

--------------

the Land Rover 300TDI injection pump is pretty much ideal for the ALH. It has the correct nose diameter to fit the ALH bracket. You can use the ALH sprocket and hub which will give the correct offset for the timing belt. To mount it, you can run a tap into the three mounting holes at the sprocket end of the pump and use M10 bolts if memory serves. They are larger than the stock ALH bolts but will just barely fit through the holes in the timing cover/bracket. There are a couple of other minor items to address but it is 99% bolt-on and will outperform a stock ALH eTDI out of the box.
(A. Libby)

----------
http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,46476.0.html
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?9375483-300-tdi-landrover-pump-on-an-ALH-TDI-engine&p=114031915#post114031915
The hub on the pump,
the part that the timing belt sprocket bolts to,
needs to be the one from the ALH engine. The hub from the Rover application has the wrong offset for the timing belt location as well as other differences.


The slot for the locking pin on the landrover pump is bigger than the one on the ALH pump.
And the hole the pin slides into is bigger.
So I either had to cut the ALH slot wider or put a bushing in the LR pump.
I made a bushing, but don't have a picture of it yet.
I still ended up having to cut the ALH slot deeper because the LR pump hole is lower.

Now if you go back to this picture,

Tthe allen bolt at the front nose area of the pump gets removed and a longer bolt goes in the hole.
It's used to lock the pump shaft when it's at 1.43 mm.
Lock it there with the alignment pin in the hub slot and tighten it down.
Further fine tuning adjustments are done with the sprocket bolts.
The first picture also shows how close the alignment pin hole is to the hub,..
the sprocket bolts will hit it.
About 3/16" needs to be removed.

The pump mounting holes are threaded on the ALH pump.
Not so on the LR pump.
I put 8m1.25 helicoils in the holes.
They felt a little loose, like the holes were slightly too big.
I'm not too worried but will use longer bolts and add nuts on the top 2 bolts.
Andrew suggested I use 10m 1.5 or 1.25 bolts.
I'll try that on the next one.

From photo, for governor mod, replace the middle spring, the shorter spring of the larger diameter 2, with several washers.


On the high pressure end of the pump I used a 1.6 mounting bracket.
Drilled a few extra holes for allen bolts, probably didn't need to..


There are holes in the metal high pressure head that are supposed to support the bracket.
 The Land Rover pump had them in a different spot so the TDI bracket had little support.
 The MK1 bracket didn't line up with the right holes either so I drilled them into the bracket.
 Where the 2 allen bolts are.
 
 To drill the right spot I screwed the pointy bolt into the hole and bolted the bracket on,..
 then tapped it with a hammer to use it like a center punch.
To make the pointy bolt I put a bolt in the drill press and held a grinder up to it while it was spinning,..
 then filed a couple flat spots so I could grip it.

I'll just explain what I did on the other end.
First off the shaft locking bolt is 10M1 thread and needs to have at least 1 3/8" of threads.
 
 I made a bushing to fill the alignment pin hole,
 instead of grinding the hub slot to fit the pin.
 I found a piece of about 3/8" aluminum rod and drilled the center to 15/64" on my 1945 Altas lathe.
 
It seemed cleaner but I ended up having to grind the hub slot too.
Because the alignment pin hole on the TDI is up higher
so I had to grind the slot deeper to match the LR pump hole.

I locked the shaft at 1.4mm, my dial gauge isn't metric so I used .055".
Then cleaned and degreased the hub center and shaft before sticking them together with a nut.
 
 Where that pin hole is on the LR pump also stands out farther
 so the 3 TDI sprocket mounting bolts hit the pump.
 I shortened the bolts but probably could have removed some from the pump as well, only talking about 1/8".

 The TDI pump is bolted on  from the timing belt side, so it's threaded.
 The LR pump isn't tapped.
 I installed 8M1.25 helicoils.
 The hole was almost too big to use a helicoil but I think it will work. (EDIT - a  TimeSert full sleeve insert would work and give full thread engagement, FYI)
*from LibbyDiesel:
I tapped the 3 LR pump mounting holes to M10 (as opposed to a loose fitting M8 tapped into the existing holes).  The M10 bolts fit fine through the timing belt backing plate and the accessory bracket.


more from FatMobile:
 On the top of the pump I used the LR accel lever and spring setup.
 I think the LR pump uses the tall bushing like the MK2.
 So I think the MK2 accel lever and spring setup would work but I didn't have one to try.
 The ball the MK1 and MK2 accel cable snaps to fits the LR lever with a little drilling.
But I might still weld a piece of early adjustable bracket to the end.
 Having the cable attach farther from the center
 means small movement of the foot moves the lever less.
 Might not be as sensitive to movement. 

(FatMobile on VWVortex & VWDiesel.net)

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AHU w/Land Rover 300TDI pump:
the AHU pump is small where it goes into the mount.. like any pre AHU pumps... a newer pump ALH aka 99.5+ mk4 style requires a machine shop to open that hole up to about 68mm i think it was.. then from reading requires a few shims to get the gear to line up perfectly with the belt... remember the pulley becomes the adjustment vs turning the pump to do so. mine was machined next day.. and machinist said it was cake, too.

for a mk4 style tdi it's almost direct bolt on...
----------------

the Rover pump fits one version of AAZ bracket which bolts up to the (AHU/1Z?) TDI block, you need to weld on a lug for the TB roller or just leave it out. the AHU sprocket fits the LR shaft perfectly too.

the advance springs need swapping to something softer (AAZ?) and they run fine, have a look on vwdiesel.net for my posts as well as others on this subject. getting the timing right is the hardest part.
(RyanP @ TDIClub)

the mk4 pulley has no keyway on the 'holder/flange' so setting it at TDC can be a pain, I'd prefer to use an AHU pulley and just live with the fact that you have to adjust the timing by swinging the pump (and grind out the ALH bracket mounting holes to slots, or use older VW pump brackets that are already slotted.

-----

I've just put one of these pumps on a 1Z.

I used the pump bracket from a 1.9TD T4 transporter van (eurovan to the Americans) as I had one laying around. The AAZ bracket I had I'm sure was too small, but now ryanp has mentioned it, I will have to look again. Ryan, was the AAZ a late one with the 2-piece hub by any chance?

I used the 1Z pulley which meant slotting the pump mounting holes so the timing could be set by turning the whole pump.

Timing figures, I started at 1.54mm (EDIT - 1.54mm for EGR model Land Rover pumps, not non-EGR which are 1.40mm) which is a number I have seen on a few threads and it ran at that setting. However, it was a bit smokey and with some more advance ran perfect
(MarkB_1303 @ TDI Club)

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The bracket was the one with a 2pc hub as far as I remember, at first I got my mates grandad to open up a TDI bracket, but realized this afterwards! I did the same for the first setup I made, slotting the holes. The second one just used a stock AAZ bracket and the Mk4 Golf TDI hub/sprocket but finding TDC would be a pain with no keyway so I sold it all.
The mk4 pulley fits right on the Rover pump, just needs a key way to make sure its in the right place.

I'd like to see how the pump goes if you open the timing cover up and put a softer spring in, maybe a AAZ one will work?? The governor needs doing as the Land rovers don’t rev well at all.
(RyanP @ TDIClub)

----------

I've fitted my LR 300TDI 11mm pump on my mTDI & it wasn't too difficult but there were a few things. I started with a Canadian AAZ IP bracket & had to have the nose bore opened up for the LR pump but just a few mm. From there it installed easily with a ALH 2 piece flange/pulley & shorter delivery valves from an old AAZ pump so the stock lines would line up without needing any bends.

Goes like a stabbed rat compared to the AAZ I had in before, mileage is consistent at 7.5L/100km (AAZ was 9.3) which is pretty good for pushing around a fat Vanagon & a heavy foot. PP520's (from RyanP), K03 hybrid @ 18psi & NO smoke... none; i could probably use a bit more fuel but i'm happy as it is. Initally I set the timing to 1.2 but that was a tad (ok more than a tad...) smokey at cold start. I beleive its around 1.4ish now & no smoke at start & not clacky sounding. I'm very happy with the results.

Giles pressed the hub on so its locks at TDC. On the LR pumps its not hard to figure out though, the woodruff key on the shaft points to the #1 cylinder pump outlet at pump TDC.

(BlackDogVan @ TDIclub)

------

The Rover 2.5L engine puts out 120 hp in stock form - stock injectors, stock turbo, stock emissions profile. The pump itself has no trouble pushing more fuel than that.

The pump head itself is identical to an 11mm ALH pump. The cam plate in the pump (which is what actually pushes on the plunger more or less) isn't quite as aggressive as the stock AHU/ALH ones. This does limit the fueling you can achieve a tiny bit. Larger nozzles take care of that though. If you are going for an all out 200 hp+ build then swapping in a different cam plate wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, however the stock one is sufficient for most people's needs if they are doing injectors too.

The earlier Rover 200 TDI pumps have a more aggressive cam plate than the later 300 TDI ones, though there's been some suggestions that the 200 pumps are more likely to break plunger return springs due to said cam plate. I can't say either way - I have the 300 TDI version along with large nozzles and I definitely don't have any issues getting enough fuel in there.
(VanBCguy @ TDIClub)
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« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 02:02:10 pm by Chuck1978 »

Reply #176June 19, 2020, 11:23:24 pm

Chuck1978

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Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
« Reply #176 on: June 19, 2020, 11:23:24 pm »
Spain is really going strong with a large supply of used mechanical direct injection turbodiesel pumps in my recent searches, this website seems to be a salvage yard search site, and has 6 or 8+ Rover pumps available for reasonable used prices.  William Smith's at least come with the assurance that they came off of known running vehicles.  These salvage yard pumps may be just "rebuildable cores" if you're shipping from overseas

https://www.recambioverde.es/piezas-desguace/land-rover/bomba-inyeccion-land-rover-defender-ld-1996-2002_rv730058001009.html

Reply #177August 19, 2020, 12:56:08 pm

Buji88

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Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
« Reply #177 on: August 19, 2020, 12:56:08 pm »

William Smith's at least come with the assurance that they came off of known running vehicles.  These salvage yard pumps maybe just "rebuildable cores" if you're shipping from overseas



Awesome, thank you for pointing that out. I wasn't able to find any information on this William Smith's. Do you have a website or where they are from? I found a wicked deal on a ALH and it needs a pump.

Reply #178August 19, 2020, 11:12:44 pm

fatmobile

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Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
« Reply #178 on: August 19, 2020, 11:12:44 pm »
 William smith has an ad in the classifieds.
 I got my pump from him.
 It needed a shaft seal but I think it will run fine once I get injectors that aren't pissers.
Tornado red, '91 Golf 4 door,
with a re-ringed, '84 quantum, turbo diesel, MD block

Reply #179August 20, 2020, 12:38:23 pm

Chuck1978

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Re: mTDI / TDI-M Injection Pump FAQ
« Reply #179 on: August 20, 2020, 12:38:23 pm »
Here's a GREAT tutorial/lesson on how the Bosch VE rotary diesel injection pumps work. I've also saved this as a pdf also in case the webpage ever goes away.

http://stuff.is-a-geek.net/OnlineDocs/Vehicles/vepump.html




Setting the base timing with a dial gauge allows you to measure the distance the cam plate moves the plunger from a zero setting your target setting as the engine rotates to #1 cylinder compression stroke TDC.
Once you have the sprocket hub installed in the correct orientation for your particular mTDI pump (this can vary between pumps, the VW vs the Land Rover for example), sprocket to hub alignment locking pin installed, and you have the crank locked/in position for #1 cylinder to be at TDC, camshaft to be locked in position for #1 TDC on compression stroke (as dictated by camshaft orientation, there are 2 TDC's / revolutions for the crank per 1 revolution of the camshaft FYI, cam spins at half crankshaft speed on 4 stroke engines), the engine should start and run, but will benefit from some fine tuning. 

Some advice on fine tuning the timing by ear after obtaining the dial indicator lift setting - time it somewhere by ear between clack (too advanced) and smoking at idle (too retarded), and shoot for most power and best fuel efficiency without much smoking on normal driving loads (of course fuel screw settings can alter this smoke output, so be aware that if it has been adjusted from stock factory setting, this is not a guaranteed method of knowing if it is too retarded).
On pumps with slotted mountings, move the pump towards the engine (advance the timing) until you start to hear audible clickitey-clacking sounds, and then back off a bit. You are now right within this specific engine setup's optimal range, shortly before too much advance. Finding the best setting around this range will yield the best performance, cold starting, and economy.
For the ALH type 2pc slotted adjustable pump sprocket and hub, you would be rotating the adjustable sprocket the opposite direction that is stated to rotate the pump in the above description.
Once you have gotten the slotted pump mounting adjustment swiveled to the desired position where it runs the best and you are the most pleased, torque the front and rear pump mounting bolts, and then loosen and then re-tighten the delivery valves fuel line fitting nuts the back of the head to take any binding off of the lines from the twisting adjustment.  For those using the ALH 2pc slotted sprocket/hub, this is not necessary, and you may see the added benefit of a stationary pump due to this as well.  Being able to swing the pump with the bolts slightly loosened, in order to observe the audible and visual indicators, is quite a nice feature, however.  But not worrying about stresses on the injector hard lines is also nice. 

As moving the pump even 0.5mm can noticeably change the way the engine runs, for reference, it's good to use a paint pen to mark a range of adjustment on the pump/bracket or sprocket/hub, and scribe (or use permanent ink marker) 2 lines on one side as the driveable adjustment range, and one line on the other side as the reference pointer.
Just be aware that if you change the timing belt, or even at various points during a timing belt's lifespan, the marked range you made for reference may change slightly due to belt wear/stretch, manufacturing tolerance/variances, and belt tension.

Turn it while running and you will get a good feel for where it likes to run,.. that'll get you in the general area.
 
Setting the plunger lift using a dial gauge is not guaranteed to give you the absolute best setting ESPECIALLY on an mTDI hybrid build, but should be used as a basis and reference to then fine tune the timing by ear to get a better feel for where your particular and individually unique engine setup runs the best. It is worth the extra time and labor to find the sweet spot.  Most people find their engine runs better slightly above the specified OEM application range anyway.

Also as a disclaimer, if you set the timing excessively retarded, you will have a very high EGT. If you set it too advanced, you will increase cylinder pressure to a very high level, and especially with excessive fueling in the search for more power, could cause you to bend a rod... so err on the side of caution slightly from the clickety-clacking sound of too much advance, but know that you are skirting on a fine line of awesome power and efficiency, and the dangerzone.




Also another tip for your initial startup for priming the fuel lines and pump, and clearing of any air,
1st - run clear fuel lines at the filter and injection pump to be able to monitor for air bubbles. 
The pump will have a hard time priming itself if there is a lot of air in the lines.
Put a vacuum on the output of the injection pump and pull fuel all the way through the filter and pump. A brake bleeding setup such as the MityVac SilverLine Elite pump and liquid pumping canisters will work nicely.

As far as the 2pc sprocket's hub installing goes on the Land Rover pump, from Libby:
To install the hub, make sure the shaft keyway is aligned with the delivery valve for the #1 injector, make sure the dial indicator is rising as you turn CW, and when you arrive at the dial indicator setting you desire, lock the pump shaft with the side bolt.  With the shaft locked, install the hub with the pin in place and tighten the hub nut.  Whenever the pin fits should then equal the dial indicator reading you used previously.  I think 1.40mm is a good baseline timing spec for the LR pump.  You might want to adjust from there, though.  Set to 12° BTDC at idle with the pulse adapter.   




Overall, the pump timing spec is highly dependent on a few other specifications, such as the profile/charachteristics of the camplate in the injection pump, and the injector breaking pressure.  That's why there are so many different values out there. The shape of the camplate ramp heavily influences the timing setting.

From TDIClub:

Pump piston size (9,10,11,12 mm) The larger the piston the lower it's lift at TDC for the same crankshaft degree timing.

Cam plate shape, this is much more subtle but it will change timing somewhat. Cam shape changes the way an injector fires more then when.

Injector pop pressure, lower pressure earlier firing. This is why injector balance is very important.

Injector line length, Longer lines = later firing. This is why line lengths need to be the same.

But all of this is just changing when the injector is firing. If your compression is low the actual combustion event happens later then if the compression is higher (within spec). All static injector pump timing specs are based on a known set of parameters and if those parameters change then the static timing will also need to change.

Basically what I am saying is that mTDI timing is going to depend on your particular setup. I think that a diesel timing light adapter is going to be a crucial instrument when I set up my mTDI's timing
With my 12mm head I think a good place to start is at the .8-.9 mm at TDC and then time with a diesel timing light to about 12+/- degrees before TDC crank timing (this seems to be the consensus for timing light timing).
-Jaysin

I really don't see how I could have set mine up without my pulse adapter. Non standard nozzles, a pump that was never meant to be bolted to this engine....
-vanbcguy

https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/install-my-mtdi-pump-0460424138-but-what-should-i-set-the-timing-to.431721/

Also, some timing belt install tips for rookies:
Lock cam, release cam pulley,
lock injection pump, release the 3 pulley bolts.
Verify crank/flywheel is lined up at bellhousing or other TDC verification using a long dial indicator on a magnetic base, with long pointer through #1 cylinder glow plug/injector hole
Replace idler and tensioner
Install new belt
Tension belt
Tighten injection pump and cam pulley,
Remove locks
Rotate crank 4 full revolutions by hand gently to check for interference (if changing on an in-service engine, rotate by hand before beginning job to get a feel for force required)
verify at flywheel that timing marks and tool locking locations still all line up after exactly 4 revolutions of engine by hand
install lock tools -  if all fit in properly, your timing is good.
pull center bolt from back of injection pump,
put dial indicator in, remove locks and dial in the IP timing to the proper specification
Remove dial, install bolt in back side of injection pump,
Remove lock tools
Start it up and run it. change next timing belt in 80,000 miles! Sooner if you have an 11mm injection pump and stock nozzles, or 12mm injection pump and even DLC 520 nozzles etc. 


« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 11:10:42 pm by Chuck1978 »

 

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