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Dry sump brainstorming session...
by
Jetmugg
on 16 Jun, 2014 13:27
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It doesn't cost anything to think, but when you start buying parts, the $$$ can add up in a hurry.
Anyway, this is for a racing-only application...
Alternator is not needed.
I just had a vision of running a dry sump pump, roughly mounted in the location that my alternator currently occupies. It's a low-mount alternator, using a non-A/C bracket. I'm basically using the alternator as a way to tension the water pump belt, as there are no other accessories. The vacuum pump has had its vanes removed.
Picture with me - a "Gilmer" style toothed belt, running off the crank pulley, turning a toothed pulley on the water pump, and a toothed pulley for a dry sump pump...
Can I completely ditch the factory vac pump at that point, covering the hole with a plate? I'm trying to picture in my mind's eye if there are any oil passages that require the presence of the stock oil pump and vac pump driveshaft.
Custom oil pan, 2 scavenge fittings, oil pressure delivered from the dry sump pump to the front of the block (through a remote filter setup). Maybe a 6 or 7 quart oil tank...
Help me visualize any obstacles (other than $$$) to this plan.
Thanks,
Steve.
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#1
by
theman53
on 16 Jun, 2014 14:29
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I will go check my window block and see if I can tell if there are any holes for oil in that area. I do not know. The only obstacle that I see is the toothed pulleys but for money anything can be made. Maybe for the crank pulley you could cut the nose off of a crank pulley and bolt it on directly to the other crank pulley? Water pump I don't know.
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#2
by
Jetmugg
on 16 Jun, 2014 14:34
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That's a good idea about "stacking" the crank pulleys. I already have the dimensions of the bolt pattern, and have a pre-drilled length of aluminum rod with the correct pattern.
I can get belts and various blank pulleys from industrial supply houses. I think that there are enough options in belt length to allow it to work out. I can get the pulleys machined "on the clock".
One of my circle-track friends has volunteered to donate a 3-stage pump from a midget engine that he no longer uses.
This could get interesting!
Steve.
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#3
by
Toby
on 16 Jun, 2014 15:07
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You can't just ditch the vacuum pump since its gear drives the oil pump. Some early non power brake Rabbits had no vacuum pumps. They had a short gear and a block off plug held down by the vacuum pump hold down. If you can't find one of those, you could certainly cut down and plug the base of a vacuum pump for the gear to run in. I think that I may have an old 1.5D around here that may have that stuff in it. I will look in the next couple of days.
Why Gilmer belts? I know they look racy but they are noisy and eat lots of power. I don't think that they will do anything for you that a much cheaper and more versatile V belt won't. Or better yet, poly V.
What kind of racing BTW?
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#4
by
Jetmugg
on 16 Jun, 2014 18:52
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Land speed racing. If I go to a dry sump setup, the internal oil pump isn't used. The cogged belt would drive the water pump and external 3 stage oil pump.
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#5
by
Toby
on 16 Jun, 2014 19:54
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But why a toothed belt? A poly V belt may save you as much as 10 hp.
What kind of car?
You may need to replace the bushing that the oil pump shaft rides in. It blocks off the gallery and IIRRC there is a substantial hole to lube the shaft that you might want to plug. You may just be able to turn the bushing 90* to close off the passage.
Are you considering ash canning the whole intermediate shaft as well? It would be free hp.
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#6
by
Jetmugg
on 17 Jun, 2014 05:29
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A toothed belt should actually require less power to drive than a V-belt, as the toothed belt doesn't rely on tension and friction to drive the accessories. Less energy is lost to heat, and the belt tension can be much lower, which saves bearings. In industry, we use toothed belts whenever possible.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy00osti/27833.pdfIn practice, dry sump pumps generally run on toothed belts. Moroso and others have pretty extensive lines of pulley options to drive the pumps.
The vehicle is an '84 Dodge Rampage, powered by a 1.5L VW turbodiesel.
That information about an oiling hole in the block (for the vac pump and OEM oil pump shaft) is what I was hoping to find. I have a block in my garage that I can take a look at, but was just hoping for someone to chime in and say for sure.
I would plan on retaining the IM shaft, using it as part of the OEM path for the timing belt routing. It "might" be possible to completely do without the IM shaft, but would require more extensive engineering.
Steve.
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#7
by
Gizmoman
on 17 Jun, 2014 06:18
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I agree, a toothed belt is the lowest HP usage by far. Here's a shot of my IM shaft bearings (two ball bearings stacked)
A Smalley spiral ring holds them in place and I found an oil seal that fit as well. I cross-drilled the oil port which is now blocked off by the bearings. If I had it to do over, I'd have used a slightly smaller drill diameter
I turned down the shaft to lighten the rotating mass ind balance it better.
BTW - that last shot of your car is very nice.
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#8
by
RabbitJockey
on 17 Jun, 2014 06:50
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toothed belt is also less likely to slip, which is the main reason i'd use one.
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#9
by
Jetmugg
on 17 Jun, 2014 06:53
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Wow - talk about nice
- double roller bearing conversion for the IM shaft, with a REAL drawing of the part. Very nice.
Was the shaft ground to size, or turned in a lathe? I manage a small manufacturing company with both shaft grinding and CNC lathe capabilities. Looking over the horizon, I can definitely see that I might like to "borrow" this design. REALLY nice work there, Gizmoman! Do you happen to have the dimensions for the keeper groove? If not, no big deal, I think I can find recommended dimensions from Smalley.
I don't want to bug you to death with questions, but is that the cross-drilled hole at 10:00-ish position in the upper photo?
I'm pretty excited about the future of making power from a 1.5L turbodiesel. I managed to set the H/DT record in Ohio, and will be running on the salt flats (a lifelong dream) in August. After that, I would like to bump up the power some more, with an eye towards running the same engine in some other LSR vehicles.
My Rampage is a pretty handy test bed at this point. I'd like to be able to set it up lower to the ground for one thing, which will be made easier with the addition of a dry sump system. A dry sump would also provide a lot of peace of mind when running at Bonneville - especially if I can get to the "long" course, which is 5 miles running at essentially WOT.
Thanks again. That's really innovative work!
Steve.
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#10
by
libbydiesel
on 17 Jun, 2014 08:17
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If you ditch both the stock oil pump and vac pump, there is no need for the intermediate shaft at all. I'd block off the hole and install an idler in the top hole to maintain wrap on the injection pump.
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#11
by
Jetmugg
on 17 Jun, 2014 08:56
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If you ditch both the stock oil pump and vac pump, there is no need for the intermediate shaft at all. I'd block off the hole and install an idler in the top hole to maintain wrap on the injection pump.
That sounds like a do-able plan. Keep it simple. I need to take a look at a spare block to determine how many oil passages would need to be plugged.
Steve.
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#12
by
Renax
on 17 Jun, 2014 12:56
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Tip for pulleys for this setup is to get t-belt conversion for G60 engine, both crank and vaterpump will fit, an then there are 2 ekstra pulleys that you can use for the oilpump and maybe keep alt?
If you want to run witout alternator anyway, you can use a normal t-belt tensioner to tension the v-belt, alternator takes some hp away from the wheels...
Do you even need a battery?
Sent from my cheapchinaphone using Tapatalk
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#13
by
Jetmugg
on 17 Jun, 2014 13:04
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I need the battery the start the engine, run the circulation pump for the intercooler ice water, electric fuel pump, and to provide voltage to the gauges. Before a run starts, and after it is complete, I also want to run the electric radiator fan.
I will have a look at the G60 conversion possibilities.
Thank you,
Steve.
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#14
by
Toby
on 17 Jun, 2014 15:07
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Nothing in the article listed says anything about Poly V belts which I have read are more efficient than toothed belts.
Also what advantage do you think you gained by installing ball bearings on the IM shaft? 1/4 of a hp?