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#90
by
burn_your_money
on 17 Mar, 2014 09:27
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I guess the issue with using the stock drain location on the block is that it would make the oil drain almost horizontal, if not uphill?
In the drawing, the red line is in the wrong place. It should be higher up, at the height of the oil drain tube inside the pan.
What if inside the pan you added an extension to the oil drain that had it emptying right beside the oil pump pickup? You'd be sucking hot oil back into the engine but considering the quantity of oil that comes out of the drain in relation to the rest of the engine it may not be that much?
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#91
by
bbob203
on 17 Mar, 2014 14:57
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tis an afn in the pic.
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#92
by
Gizmoman
on 17 Mar, 2014 17:55
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I took out the dipstick and measured the distance from the stop to midway between the two marks. Assuming this is the proper fill level, I transferred that dimension to just below the fill tube and made a mark
Then I took a digital level and re-set it zero to match the bottom of the pan (transverse) as it's not sitting perfectly level right now. Using the level and straightedge aligned with the mark, I have 6-1/4" of drop from the bottom of the Holset center section - so about 6" fall in 18 inches of run - a lot better than I had thought.
I would still rather drain into a void (above the oil level) but it's a tough call. Hot oil should flow fairly easily and from what I can tell in the Holset documentation, there is a seal behind the compressor wheel.
Here is a shot of what it would look like if I were to drain to the original location (red line)
I measure roughly 2-1/2 to 3" of fall while using the same level as before.
Here is a shot of what I have now
I have ordered new band clamps to replace the squeeze clamp you see
An online flow calculator says gravity alone will carry water at 79 inches per second and 6.2 GPM through a smooth 5/8 tube at the current slope I have. Sounds adequate to me. There may be a bit more resistance as it's having to merge with oil that's already there but It's not like it's running into molasses.
Does anyone know the GPM of the pump?
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#93
by
vanbcguy
on 17 Mar, 2014 18:06
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Looks like it will work a lot better.
Given your fabrication skills it'd probably be a good idea to build some sort of protection for that hose. Would suck to drive over something and damage it as you'd be out of oil in no time.
I drove over a chunk of frozen snow once in my old Dodge van. It managed to snap the vent tube off the top of the rear axle. End result was a lot of winter sandy salty slushy water getting in to the axle and chewing up the gears within about 200km.
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
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#94
by
Gizmoman
on 17 Mar, 2014 18:22
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Looks like it will work a lot better.
Given your fabrication skills it'd probably be a good idea to build some sort of protection for that hose. Would suck to drive over something and damage it as you'd be out of oil in no time.
I drove over a chunk of frozen snow once in my old Dodge van. It managed to snap the vent tube off the top of the rear axle. End result was a lot of winter sandy salty slushy water getting in to the axle and chewing up the gears within about 200km.
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
Thanks for the excellent tip - already part of the plan (page 6 of this post)
As it is, I think I will add a steel brace from the block to the tab I have on the exhaust flange I made. It would be designed to parallel the drain hose and protect it from getting caught on something. A big chunk of re-tread flipping up and catching it would take it out in a hurry.
A shot of the "5th" hole for a steel protector/brace chingus. There's several tapped holes on the side of the block for the other end.
Edit forgot to add photo
see two posts down :0
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#95
by
theman53
on 17 Mar, 2014 18:42
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When doing drainage in another lifetime the leader of the crew would always say "if you have a 4" pipe sitting level you have 4" of fall." While I see his point, the liquid will not fill one end of the pipe completely then continue to the other side before draining, it will not evacuate as fast as a pipe that has good fall. I guess my point is you should be fine.
Also, it won't matter what the pump can put out as much as if you have a 10mm feed or the smallest hole in the feed line will limit it. You should be able to figure 10mm or whatever size by the length of the line and pressure to get you a volume of oil you need to get rid of. The 5/8 should take care of it.
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#96
by
Gizmoman
on 17 Mar, 2014 19:09
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Here's a shot of where one end of the brace can attach
When doing drainage in another lifetime the leader of the crew would always say "if you have a 4" pipe sitting level you have 4" of fall." While I see his point, the liquid will not fill one end of the pipe completely then continue to the other side before draining, it will not evacuate as fast as a pipe that has good fall. I guess my point is you should be fine.
Also, it won't matter what the pump can put out as much as if you have a 10mm feed or the smallest hole in the feed line will limit it. You should be able to figure 10mm or whatever size by the length of the line and pressure to get you a volume of oil you need to get rid of. The 5/8 should take care of it.
Understood, it should drain fine
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#97
by
Gizmoman
on 17 Mar, 2014 20:42
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Unless. . .
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#98
by
TimpanogosSlim
on 17 Mar, 2014 21:07
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Unless. . .
What the?
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#99
by
745 turbogreasel
on 17 Mar, 2014 21:51
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In my admittedly limited understanding, part of the reason for the >30* fall requirement and relatively large drain tubes is not only are you evacuating hot oil, but it can significantly foamed, adding to backup of the tube. conceivably you could build a small de aeration chamber with an anti slosh baffle that bolts to the unused motor mount spot just above your existing fitting.
I'm starting to wonder if this is why the Bank$ setup on my 6.2 pukes oil out the turbo under load, it has to drain through the lift pump drainback hole.
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#100
by
JamesT
on 17 Mar, 2014 23:07
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A turbo can be mounted at the oil level. The drain should feed above the oil level in the sump to avoid hydraulic back-pressure, but because the oil is pressure fed, the return can flow slightly uphill. If the return line is too large in diameter, the crankcase pressure might overcome the feed pressure.
Back to the boost controller: why would you make it so complicated? The excess pressure doesn't need to feed back into the intake. It could much easier vent to atmosphere. I've attached a (crude) diagram of basically what I've built. I haven't tested it in car, but I've tested it with compressed air, a regulator, and a couple gauges.
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#101
by
TimpanogosSlim
on 17 Mar, 2014 23:14
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A turbo can be mounted at the oil level. The drain should feed above the oil level in the sump to avoid hydraulic back-pressure, but because the oil is pressure fed, the return can flow slightly uphill. If the return line is too large in diameter, the crankcase pressure might overcome the feed pressure.
Back to the boost controller: why would you make it so complicated? The excess pressure doesn't need to feed back into the intake. It could much easier vent to atmosphere. I've attached a (crude) diagram of basically what I've built. I haven't tested it in car, but I've tested it with compressed air, a regulator, and a couple gauges.
ah, that is clever.
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#102
by
745 turbogreasel
on 17 Mar, 2014 23:48
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A turbo can be mounted at the oil level. The drain should feed above the oil level in the sump to avoid hydraulic back-pressure, but because the oil is pressure fed, the return can flow slightly uphill. If the return line is too large in diameter, the crankcase pressure might overcome the feed pressure.
ah, that is clever.
But also not true.
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#103
by
theman53
on 18 Mar, 2014 05:11
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That is really similar to the ball and spring controller I have.
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#104
by
Gizmoman
on 18 Mar, 2014 06:06
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In my admittedly limited understanding, part of the reason for the >30* fall requirement and relatively large drain tubes is not only are you evacuating hot oil, but it can significantly foamed, adding to backup of the tube. conceivably you could build a small de aeration chamber with an anti slosh baffle that bolts to the unused motor mount spot just above your existing fitting.
I'm starting to wonder if this is why the Bank$ setup on my 6.2 pukes oil out the turbo under load, it has to drain through the lift pump drainback hole.
Very interesting thought. So I assume the oil gets aerated as it pushes through the turbo bearings - possibly air from the compressor? I would hope that the turbo is sealed against that but I suppose a bit could leak by and it wouldn't take much. Here's some interesting reading on areation of hot oil
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/690/aerated-oil. In short, aerated oil is not good. I thought oils these days had additives to reduce foaming but if compressed air is pushed into it, that's another story.
The defoaming concept looks pretty simple:
Option four looks very doable. . . great, another contraption to build, yey! From what I've read, defoaming the oil before it gets into the block would certainly be of benefit. However, it does seem that the defoaming would need to happen the instant the oil left the turbo to offer any improvements in flow down the drain and it's already a bit crowded there. In all honesty, I think the 5/8 ID hose (and matching port in the pan) will get-er-done.