The plastic bottle hone and cognitive thrift vs cheapness discussion

[theman53]

Well, I'm sure glad that you like marching to the beat of his wooly mammothed-skin drum, because I sure don't.

Case in point:  closely exam the photo which he has provided to support his "mechanical skills." Zoom in on that photo and you will see that good ol' Mark has been honing his bores, with all kinds of chips a-flying. His delivery valves, all oil drain passages, and the intake tract of his turbocharger are fully exposed to the deposition of steel chips. NO attempt has been made to avoid contamination.

Personally, I would never cut corners and hone a block in the car. I have an interest in doing things much more carefully. If I am setting up an engine to carry me down the road, I prefer the much more cautious/careful route to make every attempt to rule out any sort of breakdown. And, I proudly admit that this frame of mind has served me very well as I have been driving these diesels since '79 and doing right at 50,000 miles (not short kms) many of those years. Do the math, and then understand that I have never, never had one of the diesels stop on the road. Does my poop smell, of course it does. But, close adherence to good practice pays off very well.

I think the introduction of hap-hazard practices and shortcuts, which is Mark's hallmark, steers a lot of the new guys into dangerous waters. This logic is reckless at a time (at least in the USA), when available replacement engine components are getting almost impossible to find. I prefer to follow the "rules" and avoid the catastrophes. Just my humble take. Let the turd-slinging begin.

i think you gotta be smart enough to actually know what your doing, when cutting corners..

some things, i feel it completely un necessary to follow factory procedure, but others, its a closely followed requirement..

if you are dumber than a box of birds, you should not be following marks techniques, but if you are smart enough to fully understand what you are doing, and what the results COULD/SHOULD be, then by all means, do it.

i understand where your coming from tho.. and i would never hone a block in a car.. or with my delivery valves exposed.. or with my turbo right there..



Submitted By R.O.R.-2.0

[R.O.R-2.0]

thanks for transferring my post.. i was just about to do the same, but you beat me to it!!

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

Well, I'm sure glad that you like marching to the beat of his wooly mammothed-skin drum, because I sure don't.

Case in point:  closely exam the photo which he has provided to support his "mechanical skills." Zoom in on that photo and you will see that good ol' Mark has been honing his bores, with all kinds of chips a-flying. His delivery valves, all oil drain passages, and the intake tract of his turbocharger are fully exposed to the deposition of steel chips. NO attempt has been made to avoid contamination...

follow the "rules" and avoid the catastrophes. Just my humble take. Let the turd-slinging begin.

No need for any mud slinging I agree. Rudeness acceptable though it would appear Great observations though. However just exactly how many rpms do you think my wrist 'goes' at? Unless you think I'm a hard w**ker                                [worker]
Sorry folks did I imply that I used a drill?
 Dakota, exactly how do you achieve a 45 degree x hone after the deglaze with the correct tool in a drill? I take it you use the sprung trifooted type with little abrasive feet.

My 'cheat' does most of the bore at once, gives you forearms like Popeye, and doesn't sling chips anywhere. You don't have to march anywhere with me, but  one thing's for sure, if you are out in the middle of nowhere and have a break down, I'm sure I'd be of more use with my mammoth skin than you who needs to pop home to get the right tool

Just to make everyone happy. Please don't do what I say and do, but use what I say as 'food for thought'... If you can work out my rationale, and come to a similar conclusion, then and only then follow the 'mammoth' otherwise follow the 'kid'

[truckoSaurus08]

Read some Henry David Thoreau and and maybe you'll begin to understand his ways.

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

Read some Henry David Thoreau and and maybe you'll begin to understand his ways.

Now you've done it, what an interesting bloke, I just need to get a lake named after me now. $65000 get's me an early manuscript, or $36000 get's me his personal copies of his English to German to English dictionary.

Just received an original copy of Mechanics for Young America, a 1910 Popular Mechanics compilation. No other copy to be found other than print to order. Windmills, early cars, paper covered canoes. and the earliest wind surfers I've ever seen...

[RabbitJockey]

I got a dingle berry home mostly cause its called a dingle berry hone

[belchfire]

Every time I pull the head it's $100 for parts to re assemble it. This alone makes it important to do the job right the first time. The dingle berry hone is also known as a bottle brush hone and can be rented most anywhere. It will follow an oval cylinder but why stick a round piston in an oval hole? It looks like there's quite a ridge too. Wonder how the sharp edge of a new ring will mangle the land when the two meet?
I used to do a $100 rebuild. Quick hone, new bearings, new rings and slap it together. It ran but the pistons rattled, the valves leaked and it still burned oil. But gas was cheap& I was young &dumb. Somewhere in the last 40 years I learned that doing things right the first time was cheaper in the long run. This current rebuild will be around $500-600. (jumped cam belt). I'll sell some stuff, buy less beer and somehow make it.

[AudiVWguy]

Mark,
McGyver would be proud.
Many ways to brew a cup of tea-- end result, tea.
Kids, don't try this at home.
Your results may vary.
May cause bloating.
Redness and swelling may occur.
If your hone lasts more than 4 hours, please consult a physician.

(Guys, he did say he likes a challenge)
Damn fine job.

[vanbcguy]

Every time I pull the head it's $100 for parts to re assemble it. This alone makes it important to do the job right the first time. The dingle berry hone is also known as a bottle brush hone and can be rented most anywhere. It will follow an oval cylinder but why stick a round piston in an oval hole? It looks like there's quite a ridge too. Wonder how the sharp edge of a new ring will mangle the land when the two meet?
I used to do a $100 rebuild. Quick hone, new bearings, new rings and slap it together. It ran but the pistons rattled, the valves leaked and it still burned oil. But gas was cheap& I was young &dumb. Somewhere in the last 40 years I learned that doing things right the first time was cheaper in the long run. This current rebuild will be around $500-600. (jumped cam belt). I'll sell some stuff, buy less beer and somehow make it.

That's where you have to think like Mark... He reuses heat shields, head bolts and I'm pretty sure even head gaskets.  Yeah if I have my head off I'm going to put new bolts in personally, but by the same token if I was in the middle of nowhere I'd use whatever I had around without a second thought.  Heck even at home I'm to use what I have available.  Given the same failure you're describing you'd probably find that Mark would have the engine running again for a lot less than $500-600.  In the end if the car carries your butt from point A to point B the repair was a success, and kilometres to the dollar is a pretty rational way to think about a vehicle.

As always though it's "This is what I did" not "This is what you should do".

[maxfax]

Threads like this is why I mostly keep my mouth shut when I do some of the "unorthodox" things I've done..  IE:welding engine blocks and drilling holes though throttle plates of GM drive by wire vehicles.. 

The thing to always keep in mind is "What am I gonna lose if this doesn't work"

[theman53]

Max
I am with you. I do some stupid stuff and will do more. For instance on your crack block, that is what I would have done. What is the point to put new bolts in if you are going to be taking it apart every couple oil changes anyway? It ends up cheaper in the long run. I have dumped beer and piss into a radiator of my Bronco that is off road only in a mud pit just to get it home, as I figured it was cleaner than the mud water, it was. Same Bronco I used several of the heavy duty zip ties to attach an outer tie rod back to the knuckle to get it home. For my Vw I made an oil adapter that was just key stock drilled and tapped because for the same thing from VDO was around 40.00 and I had maybe 6.00 in mine with the cost of the stock and tap. If 1/2 of the darn pics in my thread for the "starting a turbo build" worked you guys could see I took a jetta that most would have scrapped and turned it into an almost respectable daily...will be again hopefully by summer too. It took years to finish that car and it wasn't cheap, but I did it in small pieces as to afford it. So I get the backyard deal perfectly, but at the same time have had it fail and we should have known better, but tried anyway. For instance after my tie rod fix a friend with a first gen bronco tried to repair a ball joint in the same fashion...didn't work not even for short distances and as many zip ties as we could fit into the hole. I have welded spider gears in the 9" ford rear only to have my torquey 400 ford rip the splines off an axle and break 1 at the splines and 3 or 4 in the middle. Lockers are not cheap but a better way, best would've been to throw away the 1/2 ton garbage and go dana 60 with locker, but that is even more $$$. Every 3rd time or so the axle would let loose it would throw crap into the carrier and usually I would be out a carrier and sometimes my set of 4.56:1 gears. So I get it and have and still do things cheap. I am planning to make a pop tester, you can buy them for several hundred, but I should have one built for under 100 and perfectly functional. I am ALL for unconventional, but only if it makes sense. I get it if you do it just for bragging rights like " I honed and engine with an artificial limb and some corn cob grit...bet you can't say that" and it runs. I just would recommend it for others unless I wanted them to fail in the back of my mind so we could laugh at them while drinking around a fire.

My objection to the pop bottle is what it is. Those pics of the bores looked nasty and he has stated himself he looses oil like crazy *said vc grommit to blame but still he also said this may have been an engine with .160 ring gaps* I didn't get an oring with my gasket kit for the IM seal carrier and with leaks from that which looked bad I don't think I added a quart of oil in between oil changes in 40,000 miles, break in included. At 5.00 or so per quart for the stuff I run how cheap is the bottle hone then?
A quick google search tells me with shipping I can get an engine hone for 24.00 to my door, or if I want it now I can get one for 30 from the local parts store. A gallon and a half of oil and the hone is paid for.

[mtrans]

I think that Mark is say:
If you can do  job by yourself it`s much better,even if you loose 3X times in first you will "learn".
Here is so hard to find GOOD parts,I know one can buy rings for 30-150 E ,and often one want to by "original"
gemany part and pay 150 E but he gets 30e quality,so I keep my original as much as I can.

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

Every time I pull the head it's $100 for parts to re assemble it. This alone makes it important to do the job right the first time. The dingle berry hone is also known as a bottle brush hone and can be rented most anywhere. It will follow an oval cylinder but why stick a round piston in an oval hole? It looks like there's quite a ridge too. Wonder how the sharp edge of a new ring will mangle the land when the two meet? I used to do a $100 rebuild. Quick hone, new bearings, new rings and slap it together. It ran but the pistons rattled, the valves leaked and it still burned oil. But gas was cheap& I was young &dumb. Somewhere in the last 40 years I learned that doing things right the first time was cheaper in the long run. This current rebuild will be around $500-600. (jumped cam belt). I'll sell some stuff, buy less beer and somehow make it.

Hi Belch,
Now you raise some interesting points. If I just concentrate on the two I've highlighted...

But first a reminder of the situation. Back in 2007 I bought this engine and car for $150. The body was shot but it had a ticket for 11months so I drove it. After about 10 months the head gasket blew, so I replaced it and did a manual head skim. I changed a 4 thou warp to about 1 thou.  Installed new head bolts.Car rotted , so dropped engine into new Quantum wagon at  cost of $45. In 2010 starting became hard over a couple of months. Compression low, so began the rering job. I paid more for  P & P than for the actual set of rings that I imported.
Now for my reply to your statment...
 
For my particular engine, there didn't seem to be much ovality. Not saying there wasn't any, but I didn't write it down after checking it as it seemed negligable. I think only one  piston had any marking on the skirt, even though there had been blowby and some  carbon build up. Not actually as much as you might expect for a set of pistons with 7 out of 12 rings stuck, and I'll repeat it again, 160 thou gap, here’s a pictorial reminder.



Because this type of piston has no locating pin for the rings, setting their orientation as per the book, be it Bently or any other elemetry manual is not the optimum method!

 25% of the time the rings’ gaps travel towards each other and the compression lowers, 50% of the time the compression stays the same, below optimum; and 25% of the time the compression improves. This is in addition to the fact that the rings will also settle down and improve  the overall compression, if the deglazing and faint knurling, is done correctly/sufficiently.
 
I make it a policy of setting the two compression rings 180 degrees apart.
This gives maximum compression, and maximum time for rings to settle before compression rings’ gaps align, [or not].

For the rings to settle something has to be out of true, so a very slight ovality of the bore I believe is actually beneficial to allow the breaking in to happen and make the rings  wear to their location.
As the oil ring does contribute a little to the compression by virtue of getting in the way of the meandering, escaping gases, with its catchment of oil, I locate it’s gap just to one side of the gap of the top ring. This method creates the longest path for any blowby and hopefully is maintained

When it comes to installing a new set of rings and there is, quite naturally, an apprehension about the ridge left by the last ring.
There is a tendency to want to completely remove this ‘ridge’ because the experts say that this will break the ring.
This is actually something of a fallacy, as the ridge is actually the top edge of a groove cut into the bore by the old ring.
It is a gentle taper from below, leading to a steep climb out of the groove at the top.  Although a top ring may have lost a few thou in thickness, most of the wear is radial resulting in a square edged ring.

The new rings always have either a bevel, or a notch cut out of them, so they don’t actually reach as far up the bore as the old rings.

Because the rings, after a correct break-in, settle down and take years to wear, the disappearance of the notch is also very slow and any touching of the bore by the ring will create it’s own wear pattern over the previous one, if at all.

I admit I have buffed the top edge myself in the past, but beyond a little easing of that top bevel, trying to remove it without a rebore, and larger pistons, merely serves to lower compression and aid blowby. Reboring, plus parts is a last resort, unless spending $’000’s 0n a $200 engine/car is not a problem.

There is greater risk of breaking a ring when putting them on the pistons, or inserting a piston with new rings down into the block IMO, and from admissions  on the diesel fora.

The work on this, [my] engine was done 18 months ago, and about 15000 miles have passed.
As previously stated, I now burn very little oil, which is in contrast with prior to the work done. The only other time I had the head off was when I did the hand skim, and new head gasket back in 2008.

It is also correct that because I did not have a gasket leak 18 months ago, and just a starting issue, I did not replace the head gasket.
It did not tear on head removal, and hardly surprisingly, it was a perfect fit and, even had location grooves to help re
positioning. I used new head bolts with gasket when new, and, as they were only angle-torqued 45 degrees max [stopping when entering the plastic range for each bolt], for each angular torque; so I had no qualms with their reuse.
Same torquing procedure this time [18 months ago] Next time, I will measure bolt lengths, before I decide whether to replace.

Sorry to hear that unlike me, you were young and dumb, and clearly did something wrong when slapping you engine back together. [A mere gasser too was it?] Also, sorry that you have a current issue with a jumped timing belt. I have always wondered how that can happen, unless something went wrong internally causing a major clash. I’ve heard of numbskulls leaving belt cover’s off and allowing something to wedge in between belt and pulley.

Certainly having the belts feel tight and ’safe’ is actually over tight, and kills two bearings, or more, in the long run. I don’t have a belt tension gauge, but I use hand twisting of the tensioner, and feel the belt for a 1cm of easy travel between the two pulleys. Not failed yet with this method.  

Finally seeing as you have raised the issues to fellow enthusiasts, I’d like you to explain exactly what would happen if I used your method and managed to flick with the flailing hone, something into the exhaust side of the turbo. If it were possible to flick another something into a delivery valve that I so dangerously didn’t cover up, please again explain exactly what would happen.

I don’t think it likely with the speed I twist my wrist. I guess it’s an added safety feature I built into my procedure. Total cost for two visits to the engine about $70

[maxfax]

I have dumped beer and piss into a radiator of my Bronco

I could tell you one heck of a horror story about doing that..  The guy cracked the cap and went to put the piss directly in the radiator from the source..   He should have waited till it cooled down more... 

[Thezorn]

I really don't see any point to everyone being so negative towards Mark for trying something new. Maybe it isnt a convetional choice and not one that all of you, if any would ever even try. Clearly he didnt pay fortunes for the car and the motor so why not improvise a bit, instead of spending the money, and see where it leads him.
This is the same as...
Telling some it is better to mod there own pump instead of sending it away to giles and having him proffesionally rebuild it, just becuase it to costs alot of money.. or ...someone using PVC pipes, rad hose and hose clamps for charge piping instead of using aluminium, silicone couplers and t bolts.
Anyone who owns a VW diesel and that is telling this guy he is in the wrong is being a hypocrite, the truth is you need to improvise, sometimes alot of the time with these old diesels, and everyone will do it in there own way.

just my 2 cents.