That Does It, I'm Building a GTD

[gratefuljoe]

So, I've read and re-read various posts on this forum and have spent many late hours, with tiny slits left for eyes drooling over the cars that you guys are building, working on, and enjoying.

And I have decied, without a single doubt, that I WANT ONE.

Background:  I'm a biofuels nut, and I've been running vehicles on SVO and biodiesel for 5 years now.  However, I'm also a racer, and my latest flirt with:



and getting to flog it on this track:

http://www.pca.org/pol/images/autocross_layout.pdf

has left me with the insatiable need for speed and traction.  In desparation , I stumled upon threads at vwvortex, and ultimately saw this post by malone:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1964259&page=1

I knew my prayers for performance had been answered.  And I've been reading ever since.

So, it's time to start looking for the essentials.... first I'd like to find the motor.  I have some questions, with respects to this:

1. How do I identify an honest-to-goodness mkII 1.6TD.  Are there any markings or metal stamps on the bottom end?

2.  I understand that I should peek under the hood of every mkII jetta that I see, however, are there any other models to check out?

3.  Should I snag the tranny too?

4.  How much does this motor weigh?  I have two reasons for asking the question: a. Can I hoist it out of the bay (with accessories detached) and into a pickup truck with a strong friend or will I need an engine picker?  b. what's weight distribution on a GTD rabbit like due to the motor weight?

5.  What should I look for in terms of visible wear to avoid a lemon (aside from odom. mileage)


That should be enough to help me out in the boneyards here in Edmonton, AB.  I'm sure I'll have an easy time finding a motor, as diesels are prolific in Edmonton - especially vw.  Furthermore, I wouldn't mind looking for more than one if somebody wants one.

In terms of which car to build, I have generally settled on the mkI vw rabbit due to the weight it can be reduced to.  With 200whp, a GTD rabbit can achieve the same power-to-weight ratio has a Ferrari 355

Howver, I have since discovered that a few people have made sirocco GTD's.  This appeals due to rear-wheel-drive.  Drifting is fun.  Are the sirocco's hard to prepare with the 1.6TD, or is it as straight forward as the rabbit?  Are they hard to find?

Alright guys, with your advice, I'll start hitting the yards as soon as I know what to look for, and I'll post pictures and findings here.

PS - does anyone know of a capable vw diesel tuner in Edmonton?

[dubCanuck1]

Send a PM or email to MrDave. He lives in Edmonton and is quite adept at modifying diesels. He's put a 2002 TDI into his Caddy.

Hopefully he still watches this forum.

[jackbombay]

Sciroccos are FWD, can't help on the rest of your questions.

[veeman]

>>1. How do I identify an honest-to-goodness mkII 1.6TD. Are there any markings or metal stamps on the bottom end?

The first thing to look for would be the engine code.  That's stamped into the block right where the cylinder head meets the block (between injectors 3 and 4 on the transmission side of the engine).   Sometimes they're hard to read because of the grime on the engine.

A true 1.6TD will have the right engine code such as CY or MF.  There are others...   There used to be a site with all the engine codes and specs on it, but I can't seem to find it right now. Perhaps someone else will post that...

>>2. I understand that I should peek under the hood of every mkII jetta that I see, however, are there any other models to check out?

VW also made TD Quantums and TD rabbits/jettas (A1's) in the last few years of production (83-84?).  The TD in my caddy is actually from a Quantum.  It originally had different manifolds and some slightly different accessories, but those are available from an A1 TD engine.  
The earlier engines will have solid lifters while most of the A2 TD's will have hydraulic lifters.

>>3. Should I snag the tranny too?

That depends.  If you can find an A1 TD transmission and the car has a correct diesel ratio transmission (the transmission will also have a code on it), then yes.  Not all A2's transmissions fit in A1's.  Others will have more info.  

Next, the gas transmissions have different ratios that aren't very well suited to the diesels.  Another option would be to have someone build you a custom trans with the correct ratios for your purpose (highway driving, etc.)

>>How much does this motor weigh?

I had a Quantum TD with an A1 transmission shipped to me and I'd guess that the two of them together weigh around 350-400 lbs.  The transmission is easily 70-75 lbs by itself.  Others might chime in on this one.

>>Can I hoist it out of the bay (with accessories detached) and into a pickup truck with a strong friend or will I need an engine picker?

I think an engine hoist would be your best bet.  There's no way that I could pick up an engine and trans by myself.  With two people it might be possible, but it's pretty awkward to pick up... why risk it?

>>What should I look for in terms of visible wear to avoid a lemon?

If possible, see it start, run, etc.  A diesel with a lot of miles might show signs of oil consumption (smoking...not related to pump timing) or low oil pressure.  The pressure would be hard to spot unless there's a gauge hooked up (stock ones didn't have a gauge) or unless the stock oil light starts flickering.  These tests would be hard to do in a junkyard, of course.

Turbo's can also show signs of wear as well.  Sometimes worn seals will let oil past and the turbine shaft will develop some play.  While the engine is stopped and cool, you might be able to take off the intake piping from the turbo and feel the turbine shaft that way.

All this might not matter since you're going for a high-performance setup.  I'd imagine, like many others, you'll be rebuilding the engine.  In that case, things like worn rings, bearings, etc won't matter...

>>b. what's weight distribution on a GTD rabbit like due to the motor weight?

I don't think it's any worse than a gasser GTI rabbit would be.  I'd guess something like 60 front / 40 rear.  Maybe Jake has some info on that.


Hope that helps some.

[gratefuljoe]

veeman, that's EXACTLY what I was looking for.... :mrgreen:
thanks a whole lot.

I have seen the engine identification table as well, posted by malone on vw vortex...



He identified the MF as the one to go for.

Sounds like it's best to find one that I can drive before yanking the motor.  That shouldn't be too hard either - the buysell.com is very fruitful in Edmonton.  

However, veeman, it sounds as though you've utilized an A1 motor, when I've read more about the use of A2's in the GTDs.  Do the hydraulic lifters make any sort of difference with respect to wear or performance?

[fspGTD]

Looking at 2003 corner weight data I conveniently have access to right now, I see that my car at the time weighed in ("race ready" including with driver) at about 67% front weight / 33% rear weight.  I think that is typical for any near-stock or lightly modified front wheel drive VW.  I have since then removed some weight from the front end, which perhaps made it a couple percentage points less, but for even the most stripped down, rollcage equipped VW Rabbit/Golfs you generally won't hear of the front end getting lighter than 60%.

[gratefuljoe]

Wow,
  That weight distribution sounds like something to contend with at higher speeds.  Well, trail-braking, and drifting sounds all-the-more possible.  However, I usually seek the tight line.  Jake, have you found yourself backwards often?  Would a biasing towards the rear suspension (ie - lower by a few mm in the rear) help with that distribution?

  Furthermore, are there any RWD vehicles that the 1.6TD can be installed in without too much fab?

[gratefuljoe]

For all those interested, my GTD will be equipped with a full-blown custom SVO (stright veggie oil) kit, supplied by the man, Ed Beggs of Neoteric Biofuels.

www.biofuels.ca

Forget startup and shutdown on petro diesel, the kit will come complete with an auto-timer webasto heater to get the veggie piping hot before starting the vehicle.  It can keep the veggie hot all night long, at whatever temperature I set it to.  Sweet!!!

I threw 100% store-bought vegetable oil into the tank of my 1984 merc 300d this past week (whereas I usually make and run biodiesel) and the clackity-clack noise during idle VANISHED  :shock:

Seriously though, it was completely gone.  I had to stick my head out the window to hear the motor at all.  And that 3L is usually a vocal one.

One side effect due to the high cetane rating of straight veggie was a higher engine temp.  I've heard that this is commensurate with using more pure fuels.  Furthermore, my IP timing is advanced by about 13 degress, providing more heat and a hell of an exhaust growl.  The temp runs about 10degC hotter than stock.  Nothing to worry about yet, but when the boost gets turned up I'll have to monitor EGT's closely.

[fspGTD]

Wow,
  That weight distribution sounds like something to contend with at higher speeds.  Well, trail-braking, and drifting sounds all-the-more possible.  However, I usually seek the tight line.  Jake, have you found yourself backwards often?  Would a biasing towards the rear suspension (ie - lower by a few mm in the rear) help with that distribution?

  Furthermore, are there any RWD vehicles that the 1.6TD can be installed in without too much fab?

Typically oversteer (when the tail end wants to come out) is not a problem for a front-drive setup, and the natural tendency of any front driver due just to the extra weight on the front is towards understeer (IE: you turn the steering wheel, but the chassis keeps going in a straight line!)

In a volkswagen front drive application, the macpherson front suspension type poses a challenge for maximizing cornering traction in the front.  What happens is as the body rolls a lot, the tire contact patches aren't kept flat, (so traction is lost), because the macpherson suspension doesn't add enough negative camber to compensate enough for the positive camber caused by the roll angle of the chassis.  The solution for a VW racing on smooth surfaces is to set up the suspension very stiff.  Although the suspension looses compliance over bumps (and street manners are thrown out the window,) the car can be made to handle very well.

I'm sure swapping a vw diesel into a rear wheel drive platform of some sort is feasible (and I'd think a Porsche 924 or 944 might be one of the more straightforward RWD chassis swaps...) but you should carefully consider what racing class, and what competition such an engine swap would put you running against.

[gratefuljoe]

good points Jake.  Not only racing class, but budget :oops:   I'm certainly in the -would-love-to-do-this-for-less-than-10-grand class!

As per the strut type setup...have you tried camber plates to bring the contact patch back down?

As for the street, what sort of setup do you run to achieve a good balance between performance and manners?

[deepmud]

as to the rear engine applications - none came stock, but there is a kit to make Toyota or Samrai engines bolt up. I would go with the Toyota kit to hold up to the torque. Then you can bolt it in to a Supra - AWD options may exist, I haven't looked into it. Just find W56 transmissions in cars and see what's out there. Being in Canada, you may consider the 1.9td an option - but for high rpm all I read says the 1.6td is better.
FWIW, I have a 1.9td in my Suzuki Samurai - had the Zuk trans, and now I am installing a Toyota drivetrain since turning up the boost and fuel was not tiny tranny friendly .

[gratefuljoe]

Did I get that right? :shock:

I could mate the 1.6TD to a Supra?  Utilizing the supra driveline with a kit?

Would you mind giving me a bit more detail on that one?  Has anyone done it?

[v8volvo]

Forget the Supra. They weigh more than 3000 lbs, and I don't care what you have going in terms of mods, there is no 1.6L IDI diesel that will make that thing move at all. If you want to do a Supra diesel, use a 1.9L TDI. An Audi turbodiesel five or Volvo turbodiesel six would have the power but would not bolt up to any VW 4-cylinder bellhousing kits.

For the same reason, the Porsche 924 swap is not nearly as easy as most people think. The 2.0L VW engine used in the early 924s had was an Audi design, and used the Audi bellhousing bolt pattern--which is different than the one used by VW diesels and gassers. It IS the same as the pattern used on the Audi turbodiesel inline five, and people have definitely swapped gasser Audi fives into 924s so I know a turbodiesel five would fit OK. The Audi five and Volvo six cylinder diesels both use the same internals as the VW IDI diesels and turbodiesels (respectively), so all the mods work the same way. Either can be made very powerful.

Really, in my opinion (and I have put way too much thought into this!), the simplest and best car to build as a hot RWD diesel is a Volvo 240 coupe or sedan. Near-perfect weight distribution, lots of performance parts available, robust frames and trannies and drivetrains (they use a Dana 30 rear axle! It held up to my 5.0L Ford V8 so it would hold up to any turbodiesel you care to name), widely available, long lasting and tough, proven on rally and road race courses, very good looking with the right wheels, and of course the 2.4L turbodiesel six bolts right in to a very nicely geared 5-speed manual tranny. Also sounds WAY better than a diesel four, it is a very melodic-sounding motor. A BMW 3-series with the BMW 2.4L straight six turbodiesel (from a 524td) would also be an awesome bolt in swap, but much more expensive and harder to find than a Volvo, and I personally like Volvos much better anyway. Oh yeah, you can take a Volvo 242 or 244 down to about 2700 lbs if you build it right, have great rack and pinion steering, and of course are the safest thing to drive fast or slow, street or track. Bone stock, a Volvo D24T makes 106 hp and about 150 lb-ft of torque, and with boost and a hot pump, it is a piece of cake to get those numbers up way high.

Check this: http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=23648&highlight=TDi244

Well, I guess I've revealed what my next project is... :oops:

Not to say that a Rabbit might be the best option anyway, if you are OK with FWD. Enough power combined with light weight and you'll have one quick little diesel.

[gratefuljoe]

wow v8volvo, that shed some new perspective on diesel performance.  I have always loved volvos.  That deserves some good thought.  I'll probably stick to the rabbit plan for my first toy, due to price.  However, looks as though the volvo could be a more serious high-top-speed device.

Thanks for the post, and the link to all those sweet vids.  The volvo in the drift and burnout videos is positively insane.  And you claim to have achieved a good balance between blistering performance and longevity?

[moTthediesel]

Food for thought --
For rear drive VW diesel swaps, don't leave out the air cooled cars! With a Kennedy adaptor (about $400) kit, the 4 cly diesel dub motor can be put into any air cooled body.  You will have to find a way to add a radiator, but lots of people have done it. They will fit under the bodywork better in some cars then others (better in Karman Ghia than Beetle for instance), but it can be done.
That also includes the P cars, a 912 with a blown motor could be a basis for a cool cheap project, as would a 914 (imagine a big diesel powered go-kart).
If you were crazy enough (like me), you might even try putting a 1.6TD into a 356  :wink: