Dynoed my NA Golf with a Giles pump!! Dyno POSTED

[RabbitGTDguy]

Actually, I remembered the information from the book as I've been through it a few times...hence the reason why I thought it was a "pretty direct quote".

I don't recall you getting "flamed" for using the AAZ camplate, I think people were looking for more of an explanation...or trying to understand what you were saying as it didn't make much sense the way it was worded.

The effects of the short duration are indeed more noise and more NOx. There are other considerations...but I guess if your not concerned about keeping diesels "efficient" and trying keep NOx emissions at bay via the best "tuning" of the pump itself...eh, not sure there. Again, IDI vs. DI dynamics come into play here and its part of the big reason you see DI engines plentiful on the market and the design in use these days. So much of it goes back to efficiency. Even if you can achieve "peak efficiency" at a shorter duration...it comes at a cost (and yes...I did see that...so? the point being when reflecting back to what I just said?).

  A problem with many of the mTDI's running around on base IDI pumps is noise (a thread going here right now with someone having those problematic symtoms on a AAZ based pump...in the TDI forums).  While camplates will play a part in this, the timing mechanism of the part (for advance) needs to be able to "play with" with camplate and work well together. Among other things.  Driveability and durability...if you want to call it that aren't going to be drastically effected in the long run, but I'm going to bet that you are going to see higher temps and more heat losses...thus potential energy lost in the motor by going with such a duration (if I'm reading your post correctly). The AAZ motor originally was decided to be fairly sedate from the factory...remember,  a flat LDA pin, fairly conservative turbo, etc. etc. so you can imagine why the AAZ camplate was used as well. Now, I've never had a AAZ pump in hand...but I'd be interested in seeing what the timing advance mechism measures out to as well in the AAZ pump vs. the traditional 1.6 IDI pumps.  

There has been some talk about reducing NOx emissions in DI engines via the use of Direct Water Injection.

One paper that I have states...
vaporization of liquid water as well as a local increase
in specific heat of the gas around the flame resulted in
lower Nitrogen Oxide emissions (NOx) and soot
formation rates. Using stratified fuel-water injection
increases soot at 86% loads due in part to late injection.
Because NOx decreased at all loads, the injection timing
can be advanced to minimize fuel consumption and soot.

Of course...another apple and oranges comparison since we are talking IDI vs. DI in the comparison. You still need to look for "the optimal burn" if you can say that in either scenerio....be it IDI or DI.

Joe

[dieselwagen]

prothe, you brought all that upon yourself
following this thread, you were uber hot
right from the get-go about the power increase
the world needs skeptic like you
otherwise the "voodoo" will remain a mystery
consider all the tech info posted a blessing
and learn from it, hopefully?

[Tintin]

if I talk about AAZ came plate in 1.6 pump, It's to shorter a little bit the duration, and at the same occasion you can add a bit more fuel, the result on an 1.6N/A is good.

Or install a 10mm head with original came plate you get the same result.

Yes the engine are more noisy, more nox, and more..... HP  :lol:

Unfortunately the IDI motor are limited about to inject too quickly, there are to respect a certain limit, but on TDI It's different, more you can inject quickly, more the result is good.

I know, because I have tested.

[gigaz2]

damn, so my aaz camplate and 10mm head is deemed to be a failure right from the start? hehe

my view is:
Giles has the tools and knowledge to tune the pumps, ie: he doesn't just adds "some" more.. he adds X ml precisely.

that is a big difference, I know how to increase fueling and timing, but its trial and error, and there are virtually infinite possibilities to get it wrong.

my Renault Rapid 1.6D has 55hp in stock form, basically the same engine as VW's (some came with Bosch IP, mine has Lucas CAV) so why there is any doubt on these dyno proven claims??

[RabbitGTDguy]

damn, so my aaz camplate and 10mm head is deemed to be a failure right from the start? hehe

Don't believe anyone said that. However, again...there is more to consider in upgrading fueling...far over just a camplate and a hydraulic head. It "will" work...but optimally...far from it

In many ways...its good that some of this "voodoo" remains a mystery but having been there...done that...if you understand how all the components of the pump work together you can see where the changes need made and if you feel comfortable with it...it can be done.

Many props to guys like Giles that make a living off building and being able to step outside the box and offer a quality product that he CAN stand behind in more way than one. There are those of us that build our own pumps and do it correctly with the understanding...
Then there are others...

Joe

[Dr. Diesel]

I'm still extremely sceptical of the concept of getting 60HP by just changing the pump and welcome the discussion of ideas.  We all reserve the right to disagree

I guess the govenor explanation wasn't satisfactory?

[RabbitGTDguy]

guess not....goes back to understanding how the pump works...and your description was great.

Joe

[zukgod1]

guess not....goes back to understanding how the pump works...and your description was great.

Joe

I agree,  I'm happy to have seen the post

[rabbitman]

If the governor starts limiting fuel at under 4000rpm then why can I blow smoke at 4500rpm? It pulls fairly hard still and the smoke is slightly less than at say.... 3500rpm. Shouldn't the fuel be so limited that it couldn't smoke? This is a with a 1.6NA.

So Giles can make a pump that pulls harder than stock and smokes less...I need one .....

[Dr. Diesel]

I know what you mean. But if our butt dynos and rearview mirror smoke detectors were really accurate, we'd be able to detect these changes. Don't forget, even with falling fuel delivery, the HP still increases with RPM rise to the peak HP point. Much more so and beyond with a Giles pump!

[burn_your_money]

If the governor starts limiting fuel at under 4000rpm then why can I blow smoke at 4500rpm? It pulls fairly hard still and the smoke is slightly less than at say.... 3500rpm. Shouldn't the fuel be so limited that it couldn't smoke? This is a with a 1.6NA.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but it may be because the fuel is not being injected early enough into the cylinders to allow enough time for a complete burn so you are getting wasted/semi-combusted fuel out the back (black smoke)

[burn_your_money]

I "raced" my cars twin last night. Basically it was a 91 Golf with a 1.6 NA. His pump was rebuilt 15000 ago by some shop and he has my old tranny, the POS AWY short ratio thing. We met up on the side of the road to discuss an engine swap and then decided to carry on to the nearby gas station. He was ahead of me and he pulled out and then I followed. I could see by all the black smoke he was foot to the floor, so I followed suit. With his short ratios he was able to slightly pull away from me in first and second (for me, probably second/third for him) but then I started coming up on him FAST. haha. I didn't pass him because we weren't really racing and the last thing I want is a racing charge. We were on a 2 lane highway. No excessive speed was involved, just accelerating hard up to about 20km over the limit. We were both still "racing" when I had to back off, it's not like he hit "top speed" and slowed down and that is why I caught him.

We drove each others cars after and he definitely was impressed

[rabbitman]

Don't forget, even with falling fuel delivery, the HP still increases with RPM rise to the peak HP point. Much more so and beyond with a Giles pump!

Good point I forgot that minor detail. Isn't peak HP like 4800rpm?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but it may be because the fuel is not being injected early enough into the cylinders to allow enough time for a complete burn so you are getting wasted/semi-combusted fuel out the back (black smoke)

That's probably right, Giles said he makes the timing advance more.

[silvertdi]

Great post.  Its answering many of the questions I've had.

[Tintin]

It's a 1.9TD stock governor............  around 4500 look what appens,  maybee higher for 1.6.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=6j0vrfaXPmw