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#210
by
spencebm
on 18 Mar, 2008 14:02
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muhahaha!
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#211
by
Alleslowbuged
on 18 Mar, 2008 16:09
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Hello,
still waiting for 200 amazing whp from a 1.6td, respect for your reached 19x whp until yet. I think the project here is "state of the art" for IDI tuning in the moment.
In germany there is a rally race rabbit, who runs with vegetable oil.
They run in the last and in this year a 1.9 tdi engine, but before used first a 1.6 and then a 1.9 idi engine for serveral years.
They try a lot to get as much power as possible, but i thing they did not reached 200hp with the idi engines. Last step idi was with gasser camshaft and therefore drill holes in the pistons for having enough space for the valve.
Anyhow, there is a nozzle expert, specialy for using vegetable oil, but also for normal diesel. I planed to build up a race 1.9 aaz rabit and speak with the nozzle guy about best nozzle design for reached something around 200 whp. He told me that test have shown, best design for the vw idi engine are DN0SD297 injectors in KCA30S36/4DS nozzles with around 175 bar POP pressure. POP pressure must increase above 155bar, due to the higher combustion pressure due to the higher boost level. I personaly think, at your boost level (approx 2.2 bar) your need even more than 175 bar POP pressure. I run my rabbit (1.6 in the moment) with 180 bar POP pressure and thing it is a little bit to high for my boost level 1,2 bar, but should fit perfect with your boost level. They nozzle guy also tells me, that they have test bigger injectors with no benefit. Big is not even nice, specialy for the nozzles everything had to be fit good together.
When i understand it correct, you have reached 193 whp with approx 1.8 bar and know reached 195 bar with 2.2 bar boost. If that is correct, you are "under fueled" in any case. Only burned fuel can make power in a idi engine, not the boost intake air. But i am sure you know that better than i do.
For me it is amazing, that you get even this power by using a Ø9mm pump. But also be sure, that the camplate has be replaced. For my project i will used a camplate from a AFN DI engine with 3,4 mm lift.
Also the pump has to be mod at the fly weights and/or the regulator spring. I will also mod the "timing change" piston lift for reached speed above 5400 rpm, stock upper limit.
Came back to the nozzles, in my knowledge the dual spring nozzles also only for reduce burning noise not for make more power. Personaly i think it is a poor design for our goals. The mention injectors also fine for cold start, even if you have reduce the compressing level.
Best Regards and good luck for 2xx whp, i am still impressed for knowing even it is possible with a 1.6 engine.
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#212
by
burnt_servo
on 18 Mar, 2008 16:39
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935racer ;
how much fuel presure are you running into your ip ?
i'm assuming your using a lift pump of sorts .
have you thought about boosting the fuel presure into the ip to help fuel the engine better when it's wound out ?
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#213
by
Benjamin
on 18 Mar, 2008 19:28
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935racer ;
how much fuel presure are you running into your ip ?
i'm assuming your using a lift pump of sorts .
have you thought about boosting the fuel presure into the ip to help fuel the engine better when it's wound out ?
Internal feul pressure will control the dynamic timing advance, so this should be +-stock, so you may not take a high pressure liftpump.
Greetz, Benjamin
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#214
by
spencebm
on 18 Mar, 2008 20:29
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where is the torque? i would have thought that this thing would have made more torque
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#215
by
subsonic
on 18 Mar, 2008 21:49
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where is the torque? i would have thought that this thing would have made more torque
It's set up to come on hard in the upper rpm range. 4000 up to redline.
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#216
by
subsonic
on 18 Mar, 2008 23:52
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What do you think the effect of the 2 stage injection had, or has on timing?
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#217
by
zukgod1
on 19 Mar, 2008 00:20
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I would think that with the change to higher flowing nozzles, you were pumping more fuel into the engine and out of the pump. That increased pumping out of the pump lowered the internal pressure and retarded the pump timing. A little tap, tap on the pressure regulator and 200+ HP is yours.
Andrew
So what's the OE pump setting and what would you think it needs to be at?
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#218
by
Benjamin
on 19 Mar, 2008 05:35
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So what's the OE pump setting and what would you think it needs to be at?
43.5 Psi at 1000 engine RPMs-75.4 psi at 2,000 RPMs
With regard to what it needs to be, I don't know. Those specs above would be a standard pump without load. I don't know how significant the crease in pressure would be with higher flowing injectors. I am just making what I think is a good guess. I'd give it a little tap and check to see what happens. :wink:
Andrew
thats intrested libbybapa, alltough, i dont know if this is right, or not right, sidce i dont understand how the pressure regulator works.
about the right specs, i know the numbers are stated by hanger, but its unique for every pump, the right numbers you can find in the program from bosch tintin have.
Greetz, Benjamin
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#219
by
Tintin
on 19 Mar, 2008 10:04
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Woaw!! It's really impressive :wink:
But why you do not use a smaller turbo or big VNT one, I think you can past the 200HP in the more efficient 3500-4500 engine rpm range?
Andrew, the primary pump have enough flow to maintain the pressure inside the pump even with high IQ, It's more the fact that when you ask more fueling from the pump, the effort on the plunger is greater and the force counter act on the timing system and reduce or limit the timing.
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#220
by
jimfoo
on 19 Mar, 2008 10:25
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But I would think the 2 stage injectors with their higher secondary pressure would prolong injection slightly. Probably not the best thing for high rpm.
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#221
by
Tintin
on 19 Mar, 2008 10:55
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Yes, if you put bigger nozzle on stock IDI 1.6 or 1.9, you can ear the engine more noisy.
Higher breaking pressure have the same counter force effect on the timing, but It's minimal.
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#222
by
Vincent Waldon
on 19 Mar, 2008 11:24
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The two-stagers, from the factory, are set to break at 150 bar... a bit lower actually than the 1.6 style.
Evidently there's a small break (so-called "pre-burn") before that but it wasn't very evident on the injectors I poptested... however, she's wide open at 150 bar for sure.
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#223
by
saurkraut
on 19 Mar, 2008 13:30
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Hello,
still waiting for 200 amazing whp from a 1.6td, respect for your reached 19x whp until yet. I think the project here is "state of the art" for IDI tuning in the moment.
In germany there is a rally race rabbit, who runs with vegetable oil.
They run in the last and in this year a 1.9 tdi engine, but before used first a 1.6 and then a 1.9 idi engine for serveral years.
They try a lot to get as much power as possible, but i thing they did not reached 200hp with the idi engines. Last step idi was with gasser camshaft and therefore drill holes in the pistons for having enough space for the valve.
Anyhow, there is a nozzle expert, specialy for using vegetable oil, but also for normal diesel. I planed to build up a race 1.9 aaz rabit and speak with the nozzle guy about best nozzle design for reached something around 200 whp. He told me that test have shown, best design for the vw idi engine are DN0SD297 injectors in KCA30S36/4DS nozzles with around 175 bar POP pressure. POP pressure must increase above 155bar, due to the higher combustion pressure due to the higher boost level. I personaly think, at your boost level (approx 2.2 bar) your need even more than 175 bar POP pressure. I run my rabbit (1.6 in the moment) with 180 bar POP pressure and thing it is a little bit to high for my boost level 1,2 bar, but should fit perfect with your boost level. They nozzle guy also tells me, that they have test bigger injectors with no benefit. Big is not even nice, specialy for the nozzles everything had to be fit good together.
When i understand it correct, you have reached 193 whp with approx 1.8 bar and know reached 195 bar with 2.2 bar boost. If that is correct, you are "under fueled" in any case. Only burned fuel can make power in a idi engine, not the boost intake air. But i am sure you know that better than i do.
For me it is amazing, that you get even this power by using a Ø9mm pump. But also be sure, that the camplate has be replaced. For my project i will used a camplate from a AFN DI engine with 3,4 mm lift.
Also the pump has to be mod at the fly weights and/or the regulator spring. I will also mod the "timing change" piston lift for reached speed above 5400 rpm, stock upper limit.
Came back to the nozzles, in my knowledge the dual spring nozzles also only for reduce burning noise not for make more power. Personaly i think it is a poor design for our goals. The mention injectors also fine for cold start, even if you have reduce the compressing level.
Best Regards and good luck for 2xx whp, i am still impressed for knowing even it is possible with a 1.6 engine.
Is there a rule of thumb for boost versus pop pressure. If 155 bar is for stock boost, what pop pressure would be appropriate for 1.8 bar boost?
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#224
by
Alleslowbuged
on 19 Mar, 2008 16:04
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Hello,
just to came back to the dual spring nozzles, by keeping in mind which time we have at 6000rpm to inject and burn the fuel, for produce power from the burning and not only burn the turbo, in my mind the dual spring injectors are not the one we wand. (time compl. approx 0,005s, burn delay approx 0,001s )
@ TinTin,
i am sure that there is no possibility to get 200hp from a 1.6 idi engine at lower speed than 5500rpm. Even it were possible, the mechanical stress will increase and reduce reliable of the power train.
@saurkraut
there is no rule to calculate it easy.
I have make a little design program for idi engine with excel, where i can calculate the combustion pressure durin the injection.
At stock and 5500rpm with 0.8 bar boost, it will be approx 120 bar.
At 6000 rpm with 1.8 bar boost and good intercooling, it will be approx 183 bar. So to have the same pressure drop over the injector, the pop pressure should be adjusted to (155+63) approx 220bar. But for staying able to inject the neccesary amount of fuel, i think the 220bar will be to high, so in my feeling approx 180 bar pop pressure should be a good value.
Best Regards