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#30 by Thezorn on 02 May, 2012 16:59
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"the flywheel bolts aren't all symmetrically drilled so you can only put it on one way"
Is this statement True?
One hole is offset on the flywheel. One is slightly closer or further from the next so it can only be bolted on in one correct possition.
Realistcally you can leave the belt on or take it off to set the timing. Ive had it off, locked all my timing, put the belt on, then double checked everything and made adjustments if nessesary, you can also lock the cam and pump, wrap the belt around the crank witch is set at TDC, then the pump, and then with the cam sprocket loose ut it on the cam and again double check everything. Dont forget to tighten down the cam bolt after also, it is 60 ft lbs I beleive but Id have to double check the bentley.
How I see it is you can play around with your engine with no belt on it as much as you want to, go ahead and turn the crank by hand untill it touches a valve, nothing is going to happen. The force that you can put into turning the crank by hand or even a wrench is in no way enough to damage anything. But to each thier own. -
#31 by One_punchmachinegun on 02 May, 2012 17:12
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this is also a mechanical head, i was always led to believe that its a NON-interference engine. And that if the belt snaps it wouldnt even bend valves.
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#32 by libbydiesel on 02 May, 2012 17:25
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Ok, if TDC is lined up and the cam/ pump off, then to correct them to TDC then belt would have to come off in order to make a adjustment. Correct? The only reason the belt is off as of right now it is that i replaced the pump. Cam has been locked. But if your saying that the TDC can be thrown off by just a bump of the car? So then i'll have to set it either way just from the fact i took the belt off and replaced the pump.
The belt does *not* have to be removed to adjust the timing of the cam or injection pump. You will need to confirm that the crank is at TDC, the cam sprocket is loose/snug and the pin is in the injection pump in order to install the belt on the correct teeth of the various sprockets, but that is not timing the pump or cam. Timing of the cam is done by rotating the crank CCW a small bit and then back to TDC without passing it so all the slack is in the tensioner area, setting the belt tension and then torquing the cam sprocket. Pump timing is done by installing a dial indicator to read the pump plunger lift and setting the amount of lift @ TDC to the specification by rotating the pump body in the bracket. As I said before, neither of the timing procedures can be done without the belt in place.
These engines are EXTREME interference. If the cam is off a tooth the valves will usually hit the pistons.
The flywheel can only be installed one way provided the pins are indexed into the holes correctly. I have personally seen two flywheel that were installed by other people where two pins lined up and the third was not and it just got mashed in when the flywheel was bolted on. The pressure plate can be bolted to the crank six different ways if someone leaves out a bolt (yes, there are people that stupid who work on cars...). -
#33 by One_punchmachinegun on 02 May, 2012 17:51
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Well thank you for clarifying that, about the mechanical head.
And i will make sure to go to/ that it is at TDC and time everything according.
Like i said before the only reason i took the belt off was do to the pump needing to be replaced. Was not my first option.
Once again Thank you guys for every bit of input. It is much appreciated, and hopefully one day i will return the favor. -
#34 by One_punchmachinegun on 03 May, 2012 14:39
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Ok so next question, Egt gauge.. i know this topic has been covered of multiple occasions, But i can't seem to find this question answered.
http://www.egauges.com/pdf/vdo/0-515-012-075.pdf
In this link there are instructions to installing a Egt Gauge, Now this is self explanatory, All i was wondering is where to hook up the positve wire to "switch" in the diagram, the "switch" would be ignition/key, Now where to hook up is said to be both after the fusebox and after the ignition or other switch, so now I'm confused to where they are saying to put this positive wire, maybe my brain just isnt making sense of it. but where can i just attach it to the ignition power wire after fusebox(one that travels to steering column)
On the original subject belt is back on car and is timed properly, all that needs to be timed it the IP, But all lines on sprocket, mounting bracket, and Ip line up. So would assume that its on Timing. Let me know if thats correct also, Or is further timing steps needed? -
#35 by 8v-of-fury on 03 May, 2012 15:12
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Having the cam set at TDC, the crank at TDC, and the pump set with the line at the top and a pin in the pulley means that you are in the zone of what will run.
At this point you can leave all the Pump bolts loose except for the front top one, get the pump primed and engine running off of where it sits right now. Once you get it running and while it is running, you can then loosen that one 13mm bolt holding the ip in place and move it back or forth depending on what makes it run better with little to no clack-clack. -
#36 by One_punchmachinegun on 03 May, 2012 15:28
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Thank you. Then i would have to tension belt up again Correct?
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#37 by 8v-of-fury on 03 May, 2012 15:36
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You are scaring me with the words you are speaking..
Clearly you need to take a step back and think about how this is all working. I am not saying this to be a dick, but you are gonna screw this engine up if you do not do some learning first.
If you've got all the locks in place and the crank is at TDC why have you not tensioned the belt up yet? If you have, why would the belt need to be un-tensioned in order to change the injection timing? Everything being locked down is what keeps everything physically timed together. The moving of the injection pump inside its bracket is what changes the timing value of the dial gauge. However it is not necessary to use a timing gauge to get it running.
http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28
Read this beginning to end, twice, before you touch another timing related object.
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#38 by One_punchmachinegun on 03 May, 2012 16:24
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No, EVERYTHING IS TIMED right now. belt tensioned and is good, timing is good.
You said to run the car and make adjustments to the IP.
"Once you get it running and while it is running, you can then loosen that one 13mm bolt holding the ip in place and move it back or forth depending on what makes it run better with little to no clack-clack."
If i move Ip around that would either tighten or loosen the timing belt. Correct or am i just miss understanding?
Dont worry I'm NOT going to do anything without understanding fully, Thats why i asked.
And i will read fully.
Just sezzin'
Insert Quote
You are scaring me with the words you are speaking..
I am sorry. -
#39 by 8v-of-fury on 03 May, 2012 16:36
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LOL! Yes it is good you have a sense of humor while learning. It makes criticism come much easier, and learning much more effective.
The pulley spins on a shaft inside the pump. So with the pulley being set to TDC, there will be no effect to the belt from turning the IP in its bracket. As at this point you will be spinning the whole pump body around its own internal main shaft which will remain stationary with the belt.
Your post made it seem like you were all gung-ho about getting this done ASAP, so I wanted to make sure you were not gonna set yourself back 14 steps.
If the physical timing is set (cam crank and pump all at TDC) then it is time to start the motor. REMOVE ALL YOUR LOCKS! I have personally left a pump lock in before, it shreds the teeth right off the timing belt.
You have seen the 4 13mm bolts/nuts that hold the pump on correct? Leave the lower one and two less accessible ones a thread or two loose. Before tightening the easy to get one, make sure you can move the pump back and forth. If you can, tighten down that front bolt ONLY. Get the car running, if you have not attempted it yet it is going to take some work. The pump (you replaced it right?) is going to be empty, and it will take A LOT of cranking to pull fuel from the tank. So filling the pump first is a wise move. Once you have the car running and idling, then it is time to loosen that one 13mm bolt up front and move the pump back and forth. Don't worry here as you cannot hurt a thing. Too much towards you and it will get smokey and not rev up too well, too much towards the engine and it will loose the smoke but become really noisy. As if someone just through some marbles down your intake and they are now bouncing on the pistons. Somewhere with no smoke at idle, and just before it gets really clacky is the best setting.
You will run in to some people that will tell you this: DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT THE TIMING UNTIL YOU GET A DIAL GAUGE!
When in reality, the number the gauge tells you means absolutely dick all
. What is that number? it is only the relativity of the injection of fuel to the TDC of the firing cylinder. Its really not that important. If it runs, and the marks all lined up your on the home stretch. No two settings will be the same for any two motors, as this number is also dependent on the age and wear of both injectors and injection pump. Older pumps and injectors usually require more advanced (towards the engine) as they need the boost in order to maintain their injection properly.
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#40 by R.O.R-2.0 on 03 May, 2012 17:00
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"the flywheel bolts aren't all symmetrically drilled so you can only put it on one way"
Is this statement True?
no, its not true..
the PRESSURE PLATE bolts are not symmetrical.. there is one bolt that is out of pattern..
the FLYWHEEL bolts are symmetrical, so if you didnt have alignment dowls, then yes, you could, in theory, get the flywheel 120*, or 240* out of time.. -
#41 by One_punchmachinegun on 03 May, 2012 17:02
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Removing the timing locks was the first thing i did. Did think that would not have a good outcome.
"You have seen the 4 13mm bolts/nuts that hold the pump on correct? Leave the lower one and two less accessible ones a thread or two loose. Before tightening the easy to get one, make sure you can move the pump back and forth."
There are only 3 bolts holding pump on....
On my bracket im pretty sure thats all there is holding the Ip there, two on the two top corners and one at the very bottom. Which I'm pretty sure about. IF IM RIGHT I WILL TAKE A PICTURE. If im wrong i wont talk about it.
Pump was replaced and will need to be primed have not done that yet i was actually wondering if there is a more efficient way of priming? dragging the car around in gear is also not a options due to circumstances.
And will do, I read that site and i will not read it again once was enough.
Well i might at a later point.
Thanks for this also. -
#42 by R.O.R-2.0 on 03 May, 2012 17:05
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this is also a mechanical head, i was always led to believe that its a NON-interference engine. And that if the belt snaps it wouldnt even bend valves.
technically, if you really wanted to get down to it, the hydro head would be LESS of an interference type, because of the hydro lifters. they SQUISH a little bit, rather than being solid metal-on-metal..
either way tho, hydro or mechanical head, they are both EXTREME INTERFERENCE.
like was mentioned, the cam timing is EXTREMELY important..
and your pump should have 3 BOLTS holding the front of it to the pump bracket. then another bolt back by the high pressure lines..
the bottom bolt is OFTEN overlooked, because of how hard it is to see/get at.. -
#43 by One_punchmachinegun on 03 May, 2012 17:09
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no, its not true..
the PRESSURE PLATE bolts are not symmetrical.. there is one bolt that is out of pattern..
the FLYWHEEL bolts are symmetrical, so if you didnt have alignment dowls, then yes, you could, in theory, get the flywheel 120*, or 240* out of time..
[/quote]
Thank you R.O.R, when i looked at the TDC mark in the Transmission after the locking plate and pin, the TDC mark was lined up. So i would assume that flywheel is lined up considering it did smash valves while trying to crank it before. I was sceptical of that because i had just replace the clutch and double guessed myself a little but i did make sure that everything lined up properly
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#44 by One_punchmachinegun on 03 May, 2012 17:12
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Understood now that you cleared that up. The are 4 bolts, i was wrong... and i will not be talking about it.this is also a mechanical head, i was always led to believe that its a NON-interference engine. And that if the belt snaps it wouldnt even bend valves.
technically, if you really wanted to get down to it, the hydro head would be LESS of an interference type, because of the hydro lifters. they SQUISH a little bit, rather than being solid metal-on-metal..
either way tho, hydro or mechanical head, they are both EXTREME INTERFERENCE.
like was mentioned, the cam timing is EXTREMELY important..
and your pump should have 3 BOLTS holding the front of it to the pump bracket. then another bolt back by the high pressure lines..
the bottom bolt is OFTEN overlooked, because of how hard it is to see/get at..