differences in the ECO 1.6TD and the regular 1.6TD? - page 1 - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• differences in the ECO 1.6TD and the regular 1.6TD? by vw_jason79 on 16 Nov, 2007 13:53
• Well I just bought my first VW TD and am trying to learn as much as possible by trolling and searching but I have only found the HP differences. My question is what makes the difference in these two engines? Is it the IP, turbo, injectors? And is it possible to swap the IP or what ever the difference is?
  
  TIA
• #1 by Turbinepowered on 16 Nov, 2007 17:09
• In essence, the ECO is a TD without the added oomph of extra fuel. Smaller plunger in the IP, lack of boost compensation (no LDA), and a smaller turbo than the stock 1.6TDs. Block and head-wise, they're the same engine as the TDs.
  
  Just what I've gleaned from the forums here.
• #2 by Quantum TD on 16 Nov, 2007 17:10
• Here's the breakdown:
  
  ECODiesel (1991-1992 USA only):
  1.6 liter motor
  Hydraulic lifters
  Turbo (K14 usually) with mechanical wastegate
  Catalytic converter (tiny)
  Injection pump is NON-compensating (i.e. lacks the LDA boost aneroid on
           the top of the pump which delivers more fuel under boost.)
  Dual fan setup with 3-speed fans (run by relays and fan temp switch).
  Originally mated the the AVX transmission which has RARE 4.25 final drive
  
  Standard 1.6TD (1982-1986)
  1.6 liter motor
  Mechanical lifters
  Turbo (K14, but also Garret T2 or T3)
  Straight exhaust
  Boost-compensating injection pump:alters fuel ratio under boost
  Single fan with 2 speeds
  
  If you have an ECODiesel and want more power, the pump is a quick way to do it. It's plug and play, but you'll have to run a hose to the intake manifold for the boost aneroid. Used injection pumps (for the early TD) turn up on ebay all the time. Figure you'll have to get it rebuilt if you buy a used one. Make sure you GET part numbers off the pump to make sure you don't buy a late (1988-1992) 1.6NA injection pump with the altitude aneroid on the top: it looks the same as the earlier 1.6TD boost aneroid (LDA). I'm not cetain of the part numbers, but perhaps someone here can chime in. If you get a used pump in need of a rebuild, you may have Giles do one of his rebuild mods to it (not sure what he does, but everyone loves it despite the cost).
  
  If you have an ECODiesel and want to put on the earlier injection pump, you may want to hollow out the cat. With the added fuel under boost, you may get excessive particulates that may clog the cat. Just an idea.
  
  This forum is a great place to find out about IDI mods. I'm sure at least another 1/2 dozen people will chime in with cheap power mods.
  
  For more info on the ECODiesel and it's history, check out this webpage. But be sure to turn down your computer volume so you don't have to listen to the goofy music.
  http://www.geocities.com/vwecodiesel/
• #3 by Black Smokin' Diesel on 16 Nov, 2007 18:47
• And a true TD either has a K24 or T3.
  
  So basically, the IP, turbo and added cat are the main diff. Oh and the tranny has different gearing too. And IIRC, the rad fan is a three speed dual fan (correct me if I'm wrong).
• #4 by Ziptar on 16 Nov, 2007 19:52
• My 91 Eco has a single fan, maybe it's not factory...
  
  The Eco pump head and Injectors are different as well aren't they? Smaller?? Head is 8MM compared to the regular TD/NA 9MM, the Injectors differ too I think, either dur to breaking pressure or size, I am still not sure, the nozzle is DNO SD 297.
  
  Great for MPG I guess but bad if you want to make power.
• #5 by vw_jason79 on 17 Nov, 2007 03:06
• Thanks for the input guys, like I said I was trying to search as much as possible to not be the newbie. This is definently a big help. I have read into the Giles pump during my searches and had been considering it in the long run anyways. I have a K24 and a K26 laying around my house and was considering swapping in if I can find a fab shop to weld the proper flange on for me. My priority lies in the IP it seems to get these project going where I want.
  Got a couple of questions while Im at it:
  So does the down pipe for the 1.6TD(non ECO) ever show up around on ebay or would I be better off having one fabbed to eliminate the cat? I never see TD vws at the junkyards here just gassers, seems there are plenty of 123 and 116 TD mercedes everywhere i look though.  
  
  Are there different nozzles available for the IDI?
  
  To run a different plunger/ IP head do I need different nozzles?
• #6 by Ziptar on 17 Nov, 2007 06:47
• Quote from: "vw_jason79"

  or would I be better off having one fabbed to eliminate the cat?

  
  
  
  You can gut the Cat for free  :wink:
• #7 by Ziptar on 17 Nov, 2007 07:00
• Yes it is, that's why it should only be done with the Cat submerged in a bucket of water.
  
  I put a lid on the bucket I used and brought the "Gut Water" down to the Toxic drop off station at the land fill.
• #8 by Black Smokin' Diesel on 17 Nov, 2007 11:45
• Quote from: "vw_jason79"

  Thanks for the input guys, like I said I was trying to search as much as possible to not be the newbie. This is definently a big help. I have read into the Giles pump during my searches and had been considering it in the long run anyways. I have a K24 and a K26 laying around my house and was considering swapping in if I can find a fab shop to weld the proper flange on for me. My priority lies in the IP it seems to get these project going where I want.
  Got a couple of questions while Im at it:
  So does the down pipe for the 1.6TD(non ECO) ever show up around on ebay or would I be better off having one fabbed to eliminate the cat? I never see TD vws at the junkyards here just gassers, seems there are plenty of 123 and 116 TD mercedes everywhere i look though.  
  
  Are there different nozzles available for the IDI?
  
  To run a different plunger/ IP head do I need different nozzles?

  
  
  I would keep the K14 that's on the ECO. Much faster spooling, better response. The K24/T3 is too big for the engine IMO. A custom downpipe would be nice, something 2.5". It would make the turbo spool even faster.
  
  Diesel mercedes? Grab the injectors, they are an upgrade to the vws. Have them rebuilt of course.
• #9 by vw_jason79 on 17 Nov, 2007 13:51
• Quote from: "Black Smokin' Diesel"

  
  
  Diesel mercedes? Grab the injectors, they are an upgrade to the vws. Have them rebuilt of course.

  
  
  Well my friend is in the process of rebuilding his Mercedes 300SD and he had read on schumanautomotive.com forums that the vw injectors(not sure which  motor but it would have to be an IDI motor) are an upgrade for his motor. I believe his are 135 bar(?). Are you running 300D/SD injectors in your car? Cause im definently looking for an injector upgrade, and there are tons of 300D and 300SD at the junkyards here.
• #10 by Black Smokin' Diesel on 17 Nov, 2007 15:02
• Quote from: "vw_jason79"

  Quote from: "Black Smokin' Diesel"

  
  
  Diesel mercedes? Grab the injectors, they are an upgrade to the vws. Have them rebuilt of course.

  
  
  Well my friend is in the process of rebuilding his Mercedes 300SD and he had read on schumanautomotive.com forums that the vw injectors(not sure which  motor but it would have to be an IDI motor) are an upgrade for his motor. I believe his are 135 bar(?). Are you running 300D/SD injectors in your car? Cause im definently looking for an injector upgrade, and there are tons of 300D and 300SD at the junkyards here.

  
  
  Yes I'm running merc injectors rated at 135bar, pump timed at 1.05. IIRC, the nozzle on the mercs are bigger and flow more, they were quite noticeably larger when I swapped them.
• #11 by vw_jason79 on 18 Nov, 2007 03:31
• Ah, I gotcha. So its the flow that is the important part not the breaking pressure. Just curious what is the setup your running as far as the motor, IP head, turbo?
• #12 by Black Smokin' Diesel on 18 Nov, 2007 10:16
• Quote from: "vw_jason79"

  Ah, I gotcha. So its the flow that is the important part not the breaking pressure. Just curious what is the setup your running as far as the motor, IP head, turbo?

  
  
  Yep, breaking pressure isn't that important. In fact, with a smaller breaking pressure there are less pumping losses and better MPG. We don't have any hard data on vaporisation but it seems that there isn't much difference between 135 and 155 bar.
  
  I've got a 1.6TD with a 1.9TD metal headgasket, light port and polish on the head, deleted bypass valve, stock injection pump with increased fueling and redline and tweaked LDA. The turbo is a rebuilt K24 with a stuck wastegate blowing 23psi at max. It's still non-intercooled, the heat soak is pretty bad.
  
  It pulls really nice but the turbo spools way too late at 3000. A bigger DP will hopefully help.
• #13 by vw_jason79 on 18 Nov, 2007 22:59
• Quote from: "Black Smokin' Diesel"

  
  I've got a 1.6TD with a 1.9TD metal headgasket, light port and polish on the head, deleted bypass valve, stock injection pump with increased fueling and redline and tweaked LDA. The turbo is a rebuilt K24 with a stuck wastegate blowing 23psi at max. It's still non-intercooled, the heat soak is pretty bad.
  
  It pulls really nice but the turbo spools way too late at 3000. A bigger DP will hopefully help.

  
  
  Interesting about the head gasket. Did you still go by the dimple numbers on the head gasket while using the 1.9TD? What is the difference in using the 1.9TD head gasket, raised CR or lowered CR?
  
  Ive got an extra G60 intercooler that I was planning on using in this car when I get the chance to piece the plumbing together. I guess Im gonna try out the k14 for a while but do you know how much psi it can run efficiently? So you are using the stock plunger head?
  
  Well Im going to the junkyard tomorrow to snag some of those MB injectors and Im gonna keep an eye out for a pump since Im going to about 3 yards tomorrow. I just want a core for a rebuild shop. And one more question to pick your brain with Is it possible to change the nozzles from the MB injectors to the VW ones or will this have no effect or at least no positive effect or not even possible? And do the injectors thread right into the VW head?
• #14 by Black Smokin' Diesel on 19 Nov, 2007 14:23
• Yes I used the dimples to get the right HG. The 1.9TD headgaskets are of the same thickness as the 1.6 engine. You get a very slight decrease in compression because the 1.9 has a bigger bore.
  
  I'm not familliar with the K14's efficiency range. My guess would be below 20 psi. Yes my pump is 100% stock.
  
  The MB injectors are EXACTLY the same as the VW ones, it's a direct fit. Only the nozzles are different.