Samurai with a 1.6l tuning issues (hey Giles!)

[bvanetten]

Andy2 wrote"I noticed you said your aiming for 35 psi with a compound setup so building an engine that can handle 30+ psi "efficienty" and lots of fuel is the only other issue.You need a better intake manifold,stronger rods,bigger precups(to burn the extra fuel+lower CR) then you need to O-ring/fire ring the head and block and use a copper HG.I'm burning well over double the stock fueling and only 29 psi boost my EGT's are now not too far out of control and when I get my engine back together I'll run 35 psi and it may be enough to safely keep the egt's under control.  The only reason for using compounds is to be able to make lots of hp and have good spool up.If your aiming for less than 150 hp 30 psi max then I would reccomend using a single turbo!Over 150 hp be prepared for lots of engine issues ."

I'm not nessessarily aiming for 35psi or compounds.  If 35psi and compounds are required then so be it.  What I want is to get the most out of this setup and still be reliable.  I've done some rough figuring on HP requirements at 70mph.  I come up with 60 to 70 hp crusing on flat ground.  Lifted barn doors with big tires require a bit of power to move down the road!  

My goals are:

very little turbo lag
wide usable powerband (say 2000 to 5000 rpm)
egt's as low as possible
ability to maintain speed on a grade, lets say 60 or 65 at a 6% grade (I don't expect to accelerate up a grade much, just maintain it)

Now I don't know if all of this is acheavable with a 1.6 but it's worth a try and even if I come up a bit short I'll probably still be alright with it.  And if not maybe I sell this motor setup and go down the TDI-M road.  I think I have a good start and have done some of the foundational things that would be required.

Good stock rebuild
Giles pump
raceware head studs
big intercooler
big oil cooler (rx7 cooler)
metal HG
2 1/2 inch exhaust, from the turbo back
gauges (of course)
big radiator with evans coolent

I just need to make the big #'s now!  My T3 starts spooling at 2500 to 3000 and has peaked at 18 to 20 psi at 4500 (WG disabled).  At this point I am at 1200 to 1300 at the pyro.  I don't smoke bad at all,light haze at best but if I shift to 5th at 70 and my rpm's drop to 2900 I boost drops to around 3 psi and egt's start to rise past 1300.  Increasing fueling isn't going to help me, I can't get rid of the heat I have now.  The best turbo shop in Phoenix (Turbo Auto Diesel) says my T3 is in great shape.  

The rig runs nice, idles good, no obvious problems.  I feel like I'm just not moving enough air.  The troubleshooting and learning continues.

[jimfoo]

Andy2 wrote"
I just need to make the big #'s now!  My T3 starts spooling at 2500 to 3000 and has peaked at 18 to 20 psi at 4500 (WG disabled).  At this point I am at 1200 to 1300 at the pyro.  I don't smoke bad at all,light haze at best but if I shift to 5th at 70 and my rpm's drop to 2900 I boost drops to around 3 psi and egt's start to rise past 1300.  Increasing fueling isn't going to help me, I can't get rid of the heat I have now.  The best turbo shop in Phoenix (Turbo Auto Diesel) says my T3 is in great shape.  

The rig runs nice, idles good, no obvious problems.  I feel like I'm just not moving enough air.  The troubleshooting and learning continues.

I am far from a turbo expert, but I thought a T3 spooled faster than a K14. I had a K14, and while I had no tach, I know it made pressure way sooner than 2900 rpm. Are you sure you don't have an intake or exhaust restriction? Are you positive the WG is closed? Just some thoughts.

[bvanetten]

Man I wish it was that easy.  I've been through everything at least twice.

[DVST8R]

K14 is way smaller and spools way sooner.  :wink:

[deepmud]

hey Jim  - no, your turbo on the 1.9 is actually smaller and earlier-boosting than Bruce's 1.6 version - VW comprimised higher rpm when the designed the 1.9td - later, with the VNT15 for the TDI, they got to have their cake and eat it too. The VNT15 will make boost as low as the motor on the K14 (as I remember it would make 10 psi as low as 1200) while still flowing well at higher rpm.

Bruce, I think the VNT is the turbo for you - it does the thing you are looking for. Lots of VNT's were made without electronics. The only downside to the boost-controlled VNT is that the controller will fail to max-boost - keep a boost gauge in there

[bvanetten]

Deepmud, you are like that little devil on my shoulder!  "yeah, you can do it, get the VNT, you know you want it, heh heh heh"

Andrew, my gut tells me your right.  I'll go over everything one more time this weekend.  I'll get some compression readings also hopefully.

[phil_j]

Bruce, good luck this weekend. I hope you get everything sorted out, as I'm curious to see how built an engine you need to meet your goals.

As far as power required to maintain speed, my near stock 1.9 (75hp?) was only good for about 100kph ~63mph. (don't know the instantaneus speed, but that was consistent average highway speed over a few dist/time checks in an afternoon)

 That was somewhat limited by my foot for egt reasons. That was across the flats, don't know what the wind was, which makes a HUGE difference in this thing (enough to go from easy cruise in 5th to foot on the floor in 3rd with a strong headwind across the praries)

That's 4.1s in the diffs, 35s (real world ~34), 10-11 psi k14, no intercooler

I don't have a tach yet, but by math that's at ~ 2500 rpm in 4th
Top speed didn't change in 5th, but egts dropped about 300 as soon as I downshifted. It's been about 8 months, so I could be wrong, but I want to say about 8-900 preturbo in 4th, and 11-1200 in 5th.

ps, DVSTR, if you remember that samurai on 35s at Dave's last summer with the holes in the floor/tunnel, that was mine, and it made the trip just fine  :lol:

[deepmud]

w/5.29 equivalent Samurai gears, 35" Bajas that measured about 33 1/2", a turned up 1.9td was "holy-crap". My friend in his 4.3 pickup had to stomp on it to keep up - I think he would actually be faster in a drag race, but he has to romp on it to keep up. 1100 EGT on one steep hill on the way to work - my heat issues were coolant at rising towards 220 when maintaining 75mph (Dodge Omni radiator at the time) at ambient temps above 75F, so I would have to back down to 65mph - mornings at 60F I would easily run at 75mph and I did 90 a few times for fun - redline would be about 104-105 mph but I didn't try.


Same engine in Jimfoo's Rover was somewhat less peppy - more weight, different gearing, more steep hills at high altitude so a direct comparison is difficult. I was corresponding about swapping in a VNT with him when the rig got taken out in traffic - he's still getting it back together - the 1.9td in that Rover engine compartment looks TEENY!

[jimfoo]

But I am working a VNT 15 and IC into the mix, along with the governor mod, and changing the timing from the pathetic stock setting. Gapless rings and ARP studs will top it off. I did have high egts with the k14, although I also had high water temps, especially on passes. I had a stock Rover rad, which was probably too small. I think it will do much better once I get it back together. I am going to dyno it when it is done, although with a transfer case and separate overdrive, I will have more drivetrain losses than most of you.

[DVST8R]

ps, DVSTR, if you remember that samurai on 35s at Dave's last summer with the holes in the floor/tunnel, that was mine, and it made the trip just fine  :lol:

I do quite well... I am glad to here it, I was a little sketched out by the big trip you had planed, but I am glad it worked out. You are in good hands with Dave.

Are you planing on doing any motor upgrades?

[phil_j]

Are you planing on doing any motor upgrades?

Ya, I'm just about ready to pull the engine again (building the frame and suspension around it right now) at which point it's going back to Dave - if he's got time - for some tuning, likely a new turbo, giles pump, a nice intercooler an possibly some different manifolds.

I don't want to go too crazy and compromise reliability, but at the same time...well,  :twisted:

[bvanetten]

I just thought of something.  What if the spring that holds the wastegate valve closed is weak or broken?  Weak or broken enough to allow exhaust pressure to open it.  It would still work when I test it with compressed air to open it but while driving down the road all of my precious exhaust gasses are bypassing the turbine.  This could possibly cause the issues I'm seeing.  What do you guys think?

[zukgod1]

I just thought of something.  What if the spring that holds the wastegate valve closed is weak or broken?  Weak or broken enough to allow exhaust pressure to open it.  It would still work when I test it with compressed air to open it but while driving down the road all of my precious exhaust gasses are bypassing the turbine.  This could possibly cause the issues I'm seeing.  What do you guys think?

Remove the back half of the turbo and tack(weld) the waste gate closed.

Take for ride and report.

There is a turbo problem here, the exhaust housing is to freekin big or the turbo is just not spinning from the waste gate blowing open or worn out center.

dan

[foxracer1]

Have you checked your fuel supply to the pump? My car acted the same way when it had a clogged fliter. It smoked alot, high egts, etc. Now I know my car is non turboed but that would just affect the turbo the same way.  Just something to think about. Throw a small 5-7psi pump on it down by the tank and a new fuel filter.

[bvanetten]

Pulled a known good T3 turbo off of a friends 1.6 (he's out of town on travel  :twisted: .  Removed intercooler and went back to stock elbow...

25 lbs boost at 4500, doesn't start building boost till about 3k.  1200 degrees at 3000 rpm in 4th with 7 lbs constant boost.

Took my intercooler to a buddies house today and had him re-tig all of the joints that could possibly be leeking (if at all), just to be sure.   Reinstalled.

25 lbs boost at 4500, doesn't start building boost till about 3k.  1200 degrees at 3500 rpm in 4th with 12 lbs constant boost.

Looks like the intercooler is doing it's job, 3500 in 4th was impossible without it.

The motor runs great.  Very little smoke, light haze under full load.  No exhaust leaks.  No charge side leaks.  Boost gauge working correctly.

I tried this on my turbo, not my buddies: I took off the WG inspection plate and welded a nut just deep enough to block the opening of the WG valve.  This did not change the symptoms.

I know that my valve lash is on the loose side of the acceptable range but it should'nt affect things this much.  I will be tightening up this next weekend.

This is getting rather depressing.  I'm looking for a VNT-15 with manifold now, I just can't find any other problem with this setup other than having the wrong turbo.  Not a bad turbo, the wrong turbo.  I have done the sizing calculations for my motor and compared them to a compressor map for a T3-40 which I think is a bit bigger than the one on 1.6's.  3000 at 15lbs is just left of the surge line and 3500 is just right of it.  I gotta tell ya this thing drives just like the plot looks.  Does anyone have the correct map for our T3?  

This isn't a pride thing for me, I'm perfectly willing to screem at the top of the mountain that I'm an idiot because I forgot something or didn't set something up right.  I just want my baby to run right.  Does anyone know of a mechanic in the Phoenix area willing to tackle a modified 1.6 like mine?