Samurai with a 1.6l tuning issues (hey Giles!)

[bvanetten]

Well I am retarded but I don't run much.  

It's interesting that you bring this up.  I have a question for you in regards to timing a 1.6td without the original tranny.  

What I mean is this.  If all you had was a 1.6l td without the tranny or flywheel how would you go about finding tdc?

Obviously, without a proper tdc mark everything is off.  So I'm curious how others would find tdc without the original tranny and flywheel and then I'll tell ya what I did.

[bvanetten]

I believe the cold start lever is off.  It is all the way forward, toward the front of the vehicle (I have a north south install).

[jtanguay]

finding tdc with the head off would be pretty easy.  just need to watch the pistons and turn the crank and right before the piston starts dropping thats tdc.

[DVST8R]

I would do as recomended and drop the oil pan, find TDC, and then mark it on the new flywheel and block (or anything else that would remain consistant so you always have a reference in the future.

I just thought of this as I was on another board (dtr) and we were talking about the bennifts of advnaced timing, and your symptoms sound exaclty like the oppoiste of what advancing the timing does.

[bvanetten]

Ok,  this is how I determined TDC.  I'm running a toyota tranny and flywheel, below the starter is an inspection plate covering a portion ofthe flywheel.  I removed the inspection plate and fabbed a piece of steel with a "pointer" that bolts on in place of the inspection plate and runs close to the serface of the flywheel.

With the head off I turned the crank ccw until #1 piston stops moving upward then I marked the flywheel where the pointer was pointing.  I did this several times in the same direction and averaged them for a final mark.  This whole process was repeated turning the crank cw also.  I then split the difference between the ccw and cw marks.  This ended up being tdc.

It is amazing how much distance the flywheel moves when the piston is "hovering" around tdc.  I found it very difficult to preceive when the piston was really at it's top.  I hope my procedure is accurate enough, I couldn't think of another way to do it.

[bvanetten]

Libbybapa, I like your method.  It guarantes a fixed repetable stopping point in either direction.  I will verify what I believe to be tdc with your way later this week.

dvst8r, I've been thinking about your idea of timing being retarted from a "component" point of view.  It seems to me that it is almost impossible for the cam and pump to be "out of sync" because they are locked in place when setting timing.  The crank is a different story tho.  When I was adjusting belt timing it drove me nuts that the crank would move slightly when the belt was tensioned.  Could this be the possible cause of potential retarted timing issue.

Also, if this is the case, advancing the pump (like I did a few weeks ago while troubleshooting this) could bring the crank to where it needs to be but would then make the pump way to advanced and cause it to knock loudly.  Am I thinking right on this?

[itzdshtz]

An easy way to find TDC :

Make a pointer from wire from your block to your crank pulley.

On cyl #1, have both camlobes pointing upwards.

 Turn the crank counter clockwise away from #1 TDC about 45 degrees, put a spacer (a piece of 1/4" key stock) between the intake valve lifter and cam lobe of #1 cyl (push it down with a screwdriver) then rotate the crank clockwise until the piston hits the  intake valve.  Mark this position on the crank pulley.

Next, rotate the crank counter clockwise a bit so that you can take the spacer out between the valve lifter and the cam lobe.

Then turn the crank clockwise about 45 degrees after TDC, put the same spacer back in the same place between camlobe and lifter and turn the crank counter clockwise until it hits the intake valve again and mark this position on the crank pulley also.

Next rotate the crank clockwise a bit so that you can take the spacer out again.

Now all you have to do is to devide the space between the two marks, rotate the crank until the pointer hits this mark and that is your exact TDC.

Make a mark on your bellhousing and  flywheel.

Put your valve cover back on, take your temporary pointer off and you're done.
Now this procedure is for a solid lifter head, if you have a hydraulic lifter head, you will have to let the keystock sit in between the valve and lifter for 15 min. or so to bleed the lifter.
Also be careful when turning the crank by hand until it contacts the valve, you don't want to bend any valves.

[deepmud]

I can't figure out why the TDC isn't obvious from the position of the crank when the pan is off - shouldn't the pistons at the bottom of their throw be exactly centered in relation to the block? Then you could measure from the block to the rod on both sides. The bottom of the block isn't machined at an angle relative to vertical is it?

[addautomotive]

yep yep, that's how I've done it in a pinch

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

Sump off for TDC check? That's 20 sump bolts [ish] x by 15 thread turns which takes about 2 1/2 wrist twists each... which is about 600 wrist twists :shock:  Add the other mounting bolts....

 :mrgreen: More forearm burn than a wrist-curl :mrgreen:
OR One injector thread :lol:

 ...EDIT and one fuel line nut...

[DVST8R]

Sump off for TDC check? That's 20 sump bolts [ish] x by 15 thread turns which takes about 2 1/2 wrist twists each... which is about 600 wrist twists :shock:  Add the other mounting bolts....

 :mrgreen: More forearm burn than a wrist-curl :mrgreen:
OR One injector thread :lol:

 ...EDIT and one fuel line nut...

When you put it like that it makes me all the more thankfull for airtools.  

[DVST8R]

dvst8r, I've been thinking about your idea of timing being retarted from a "component" point of view.  It seems to me that it is almost impossible for the cam and pump to be "out of sync" because they are locked in place when setting timing.  The crank is a different story tho.  When I was adjusting belt timing it drove me nuts that the crank would move slightly when the belt was tensioned.  Could this be the possible cause of potential retarted timing issue.

Also, if this is the case, advancing the pump (like I did a few weeks ago while troubleshooting this) could bring the crank to where it needs to be but would then make the pump way to advanced and cause it to knock loudly.  Am I thinking right on this?

That is exaclty what I was thinking, I have done a timing belt that it started dead on, tensioned it and it was far enough out that the piston would hit, the valve. There is actually a surprising amount of play in most cam locks, I normally shim them with feeler gauges till its snug.

This problem would be your crank locatioin relaitve to your pump and cam, as they should be fine. Yes you will have to check your pump timing, and probably have to adjust it as well. Shoot for that 1.05mm range.

The problem with just advancing the pump in this state, is that it now brings your cam timing into effect.

My next recomendation is: lock your pump and cam back in loosen off the timing belt tension, advance the crank (like 1 tooth on the flywheel, or like an 1/8th of an inch), mark this spot on your flywheel, so that your pointer has another reference. Re-time the pump to 1.05mm. Test, reapeat as nessacary. It will be tedious, but hopefully worth while.

Or

Drop the oil pan, rotate clockwise to TDC (find this as deepmud mentioned my mesuring the block to rod both sides till equal, make new mark) and retime pump from there. My problem with removing the injector and running a wire down the hole, is that I always have a tough time getting through the precup without rubbing and distorting my "feel".

[bvanetten]

Bunch of good info here.  It will be a few days but I'll post up results when I am able to carve out a few hours to work on this.

[DVST8R]

Wow libbybapa from that post I almost double checked to see if we were puting timing belts on the same engine. :shock:  :lol:  

Like slack in the timing belt, when ever I put a timing belt on they are always so tight that I have to pop the cam gear off put the belt on the gear and then slide it on the tapered cone, torque, then set the tensioner, which with the belt already taught always moves the flywheel some. Obvioulsly everyone's experiance veriy's.  :?

[deepmud]

Sump off for TDC check? That's 20 sump bolts [ish] x by 15 thread turns which takes about 2 1/2 wrist twists each... which is about 600 wrist twists :shock:  Add the other mounting bolts....

 :mrgreen: More forearm burn than a wrist-curl :mrgreen:
OR One injector thread :lol:

 ...EDIT and one fuel line nut...

When you put it like that it makes me all the more thankfull for airtools.  

ya or even cheapo Ryobi electric drill and adapter - tho my snap-on 12v impact is an easy fix too - remember this motor is in a samurai - it's way off the ground, the pan is easy to get to - and it's critical to get it EXACTLY right.

I went for the glow plug on my TDI, but it's easy, no pre-cobustion cup, I could drop a rod right onto the cylinder.

 - the injecter isn't too bad, but you need a new heat sheild then. great if you have one, not so good if you don't.