G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2

[HP]

1) VW OEM injector set (1,000km new, 155 bar)
2) VW GTD aftermarket set #1 (160 bar)
3) VW GTD aftermarket set #2 (155 bar)

OEM injectors are those that come stock in u'r 1.6TD's. OK!
What about the GTD injectors?? I usually read ppl here referring them as the RA/SB (Europe only..) injectors (or nozzles)! Is that?
I get a bit confused about that..   :?

[malone]

:shock:  :lol:  :!:

I expected you'd respond :lol:

Those Benz injectors look like "CHIP" center hole in pintle nozzles.  Are they DN0 SD 240?

The MB injectors are currently in Dave's possession. I'll verify the part # next time I see him or perhaps he could check it for us.

Thanks for the CHIP details and for the link to pintle lift specs, very interesting. Based on my brief impression with 300D injectors I found that they may be a nice alternative to GTDs (concerning performance) but they fueled less than I expected: I did not immediately notice an increase in max. boost and EGT.

If you are just looking for a very high flowing injector, I have been doing some experiments with modifying some conventional, narrow-tipped pintle tip injectors for higher flow and the preliminary results are very encouraging. If you are interested in trying out one of my modified sets, shoot me an IM.

I'm very interested in trying these

From the flow test results we'd have better information as to which injectors are worthy of the time and effort needed to to accurate, scientific in-car testing.  The flow test results would also be quite precise and repeatable.  Just a thought, and an offer.

That is the kind of information I (and some others) would really benefit from. I'd love to see flow test results

How is it done? Measuring fuel volume in a container after injection(s)?

[malone]

OEM injectors are those that come stock in u'r 1.6TD's. OK!
What about the GTD injectors?? I usually read ppl here referring them as the RA/SB (Europe only..) injectors (or nozzles)! Is that?
I get a bit confused about that..   :?

Yes the GTD nozzles I have are "RA" or "SB". My OEM 1.6TD injectors are not GTDs (they're from a non-intercooled 1.6TD) and it supposedly flows a bit less.

By the way my GTD nozzles are not OEM. They're aftermarket copies.  

from fspGTD:

Code: [Select]

Nozzle ID    Application                [VW Part #]   Lift
-----------  -------------------------  ------------  ------
DN0 SD 273   Hydraulic 1.6D&TD          068 130 211D  .024"
DN0 SD 274   Intercooled 1.6TD          068 130 211F  .0315"

[chrissev]

did you ever check the compression again on this engine?

[DVST8R]

Hey how about some pictures of the twin turbo setup??? I know its at least partially done  

[malone]

did you ever check the compression again on this engine?

Not yet.. the engine still has just under 10,000 km (6,200 miles) I believe. Next time I swap injectors I think I'll do a compression test.

Seeing as you're just curious about compression with a 1.9 head on 1.6 block, I don't think my engine will be a good reference point because my 1.9 head has an uniquely modified deck that lowers compression.

My cold start-up (around 0 degrees C) is instant (fires to life after 1 or 2 cranks) and it's very smoky. It also runs a tad rough although it idles fine on its own. I don't have the cold-start cable yet. About 2 minutes later it's smoke free and runs smoothly. It's an acceptable compromise for a daily driver, for me anyway.

DVST8R: What twin turbo??

Another update: fspGTD has a set of custom nozzles that flow more than GTDs. He will send these to me after I give him his due

[DVST8R]

Oh its a RUMOUR I have heard through the grapevine...  :wink:  Somthing about a kkk24 stacked with a t3/t4 hybrid... or somthing, but it is probably just hearsay. I mean who in there right mind would shove such a big turbo on a little 1.6L diesel   .

[chrissev]

Got your PM.

Here is my attempt at Paint, straight up KG style.



The Red circle is the the exhuast valve, the Blue one is the intake valve, the grey area's on either side are the area that has been relived. Of coures in real life they have uniform shape and size, as well as, they have a slightly differn't overall shape, size, ect..., but it will give you guys an idea. As Dave said earlier the relief is about .25mm-.5mm deep.

Could you do this to a 1.6/1.5 NA?

it'd kill your compression ratio.  

For compression differences between 1.9 and 1.6 heads on 1.6 block without deck mods, I'm still trying to figure out why everyone keeps saying that a 1.9 head will lower my compression.  The 1.9 and 1.6 pistons are identical in piston crown design, 1.9 and 1.6 head gaskets have the exact same thicknesses (verified on ETKA) for the exact same piston protrusions, 1.9 and 1.6 TD engines both are supposed to have around 490psi with a wear limit of 412 ish psi.  I can't see where the 1.9 engine picks up the extra compression from to compensate for the slighly increased air volume caused by the bigger precups in the 1.9 head, ie if this makes such a difference when the 1.9 head is installed on a 1.6 block then why does the 1.9 engine have 490 psi with the same 1.9 head?  It doesn't make sense.  At any rate, I will know for sure within the next few weeks because I have almost got all the parts together and will be swapping my rebuilt 1.9 head onto my 1.6 TD block shortly.

[HarryMann]

I can't see where the 1.9 engine picks up the extra compression from to compensate for the slighly increased air volume caused by the bigger precups in the 1.9 head, ie if this makes such a difference when the 1.9 head is installed on a 1.6 block then why does the 1.9 engine have 490 psi with the same 1.9 head? It doesn't make sense.

Because the 1.9 cylinders are bigger?

[chrissev]

I can't see where the 1.9 engine picks up the extra compression from to compensate for the slighly increased air volume caused by the bigger precups in the 1.9 head, ie if this makes such a difference when the 1.9 head is installed on a 1.6 block then why does the 1.9 engine have 490 psi with the same 1.9 head? It doesn't make sense.

Because the 1.9 cylinders are bigger?

would that not give it less compression?  I would think that the top of the piston would be larger, so more air space, so less compression.  I would have thought that VW would have had to compensate somewhere for the bigger cylinder in the 1.9 in order to maintain the same compression ratio, but it seems they did the opposite, made the precups bigger.  Makes no sense to me.

[neverdieidi]

So what part of your mods are giving you basically twice the amount of torque right from low rpms too high rpms? Down at 2400 your boost cant be making too much of a differance. Maybe your larger exhaust and better flowing head? Curious as to what you think.

*edit: I combined the existing 1.6TD plots for a nice comparison. The power differences are pleasant :
Stock 1.6TD (black) vs. Current 1.6TD (red)
[/quote]

[jtanguay]

I can't see where the 1.9 engine picks up the extra compression from to compensate for the slighly increased air volume caused by the bigger precups in the 1.9 head, ie if this makes such a difference when the 1.9 head is installed on a 1.6 block then why does the 1.9 engine have 490 psi with the same 1.9 head? It doesn't make sense.

Because the 1.9 cylinders are bigger?

would that not give it less compression?  I would think that the top of the piston would be larger, so more air space, so less compression.  I would have thought that VW would have had to compensate somewhere for the bigger cylinder in the 1.9 in order to maintain the same compression ratio, but it seems they did the opposite, made the precups bigger.  Makes no sense to me.

there is more volume in the 1.9 cylinder so it basically means there is more air to be compressed, which gives the high compression.  I'm really interested in deck mods to convert to 1.9  

[malone]

So what part of your mods are giving you basically twice the amount of torque right from low rpms too high rpms? Down at 2400 your boost cant be making too much of a differance. Maybe your larger exhaust and better flowing head? Curious as to what you think.

Likely from the following:

* Larger exhaust
* Better flowing head (big mound of aluminum shavings after 935racer finished the headwork)
* Better flowing PD130 intake (also port-matched to head)
* Better flowing exhaust manifold
* The GT20 turbo does spool QUICK
* Both turbine housing and exhaust manifold were cermachromed
* Higher camplate lift in fuel inj. pump
* New injectors
* Retained short intercooler plumbing (no FMIC)
* Maximum 1.6 piston OEM overbore size
* Lightened flywheel

I think that's most of it.

I did a little research on the deck mod that 935racer did to my head. I found a site that is dedicated to notching the deck of the head where the edges of the cylinder meets. For all types of cars. Notching is just that, imagine sticking a knife straight into a butter, that's what the narrow notch looks like. It's not exactly the same style as mine, but people have reported that it broadens the torque curve; more torque down low and more torque up top. That was a while ago and I don't have the URL now, but I'll search for it.

I can't say 100% if 935racer's deck mod actually worked in my case as all the modifications were put together at once, but I'd do the deck mod again as it also lowers compression, which is what I need for mucho boost. Better than pushing the whole cylinder head further from the cylinders via a thick flimsy headgasket.

I believe the Giles pump also played a big part in that low RPM torque. I am currently running a NA pump and I did a Gtech a while ago, it reported HP in the 50's. This is with the same calibration and on the same stretch of road. I forgot what the torque was, but 50HP!! :roll: I had turned up the fuel screw a little bit and it is still very driveable on streets & highway.. no grey/black smoke whatsoever and no problem accelerating to ~140km/h either. I could probably go faster but haven't bothered. Max boost is a slow 16 PSI due to limited NA fuel.

I will be sending my Giles pump (currently sitting on a shelf) + upgraded plunger parts back to him soon for an upgrade. I'm really looking forward to being able to rev past ~5,100 RPM (along with intercooling, 935racer's race cam), and I definitely need the extra fuel as I was smoke-free above 25 PSI or so (with LDA and fuel screw fully turned up in Giles' original pump).

[malone]

I remember discussing transmission options earlier in this thread, so I'll update on that: DVST8R is selling his VW 2.0L 02J transmission + shifter, which I will happily purchase soon. A taller 5th gear is considered.

I'll be saving up for a Peloquin LSD. It's better to have the transmission put together right before installing it in my car.

Stock driveaxles may be retained.. I don't think I need to worry about them unless I plan to run slicks, in which case it'll be a lot cheaper to just replace stock driveaxles a few times. I won't be running slicks all the time, just during some Friday night 1/4mi races (street legal tires may be required though). If the stock axles are that *bad* then I'll consider getting stronger aftermarket ones.

[malone]

Here's a Gtech plot of my current NA pump (black lines) vs. my most recent run with the TD pump (red lines).



I did three Gtech runs with the NA pump using the same Gtech calibration I used with the TD pump. The numbers were 52.9HP, 52.4HP, and 50.7HP so I chose the average.

My max. ungoverned boost with the NA pump is 16 PSI. I had the fuel screw turned up a slight bit above stock.

If you wondered; don't NA 1.6s make 52HP? shouldn't mine perform a little better with the additional fuel & perhaps boost? Answer: Some people still tend to overlook the fact that Gtech numbers are not brake or wheel horsepower numbers,  so I'll reiterate: Gtech numbers are net. Based on 52nhp I'm guessing I have about 65-69bhp.

On the first page there's a graph of my stock Jetta 1.6TD that's factory rated at 69HP, and it reported 54nhp in Gtech. That's normal.

The Gtech numbers with the NA pump in my car is quite realistic if not conservative (I expected slightly higher numbers) and it also enforces that the consistent 140nhp numbers (estimated 160whp or 175bhp) with the TD pump are not inflated. That said, I cannot wait to run Giles' new pump update . I desperately need more fuel and I honestly believe 200hp will be a piece of cake.  :twisted: