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#180 by moTthediesel on 18 Dec, 2005 08:23
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Remember that the R10 race engine is restricted by the rules to a measely 20 psi boost.
Without that boost restriction, I'm thinking 1k hp would not be unreachable, even for a 24 hr engine.
moT -
#181 by VWRacer on 18 Dec, 2005 09:37
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The ACO's website lists the "absolute supercharging pressure (mbar) for [5250cc to 5500cc] diesel Supercharged Engines" as 2940 mbar. That's...
2940 / 1013 * 14.7 - 14.7 = 28 psi of boost (42.7 psi absolute)
BTW, diesel engines under 4000cc are permitted 41 psi of boost! :shock: -
#182 by malone on 19 Dec, 2005 10:17
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Quote from: "jackbombay"
The race car MUST also make that HP smoke free :shock:
Sorry Audi, you lose 1 point - there's no cool factor without the smoke :roll: :lol: Seriously though, the V12 is impressive. I'm looking forward to seeing it perform in the Le Mans race. I hope their clutch holds up unlike the Caterpillar diesel at Le Mans.
My TD's 140nhp (Gtech) peak was smoke free. 188bhp (crank) is approximately 170whp and 150-155nhp. The camshaft upgrade, intercooling, and a more efficient turbo in my application should continue to suppress smoke with the power increase (to an extent).
Of course a 24 hour endurance race is out of the question. :lol:
Just out of curiosity; are there any other diesels that make more than 118HP/L smoke-free?
First I'll try for max. HP/TQ possible without smoke.. have it dynoed with a video.. then go for max. HP/TQ possible regardless of smoke (EGT & drivetrain strength are the limit).
The R10 can probably put out much more than 118HP/L smoke-free with over 20-28 PSI boost though.
5.5L R10 @ 28 PSI: 5.1 PSI per litre
1.6L TD @ 35 PSI: 21 PSI per litre :shock:
deepmud: Evans cooling - interesting.. I did some searching and IMO there's not enough VW testimonials to encourage me to make the switch. -
#183 by malone on 19 Dec, 2005 10:43
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Update on the low load white/blue smoke issue:
First off, some of you may recall that I've had smoking problems during low engine load or at idle. The smoke was bad enough to come out of both sides of the car and I can't turn on the vent fan or you'd see the news headline: Mark Malone Commits Suicide by Inhaling Smoke in Car :lol:
Thursday on the way to work I noticed something; there was no smoke at idle. 15 seconds of idling and there's still no smoke visible from the driver's seat. I checked the glow plugs to see if I left them on. They weren't.
Instead of doing a WOT acceleration from a stop I tried to accelerate as slowly as possible, which will usually induce shudder and lots of blue smoke due to misfire, but this time it was smooth as silk!! :shock: It feels soft & springy accelerating in 1st gear, much nicer.
I was surprised... but I did not want to jump here and announce that the smoke magically disappeared as I wanted to wait a few days to see if the new results are consistent. Yes, it's consistent.
Friday I pulled into a fueling station to wash my windows and I let my car idle (for approx. 30 secs). I walked to the back of the car and I could see a very tiny amount of blue smoke.. about 2 feet radius around the exhaust tip. There are many other gas cars that smoke more than I do due to cold weather.
How did this happen?? I can only scratch my head but perhaps the rings needed seating after all
The engine has 3k to 3.5k km (approx. 2,000 miles).
Yes, I still puff blue smoke when accelerating but not as much as before. Revving while in idle will still cause smoke (not significantly reduced from before) and I'm not sure if it's good enough to be Aircare complaint. But it's great now for daily driving!!!
I also noticed a slight improvement in power, but I also had to adjust my throttle cable so I'm not too sure. With the leaky NA pump my car seems to have more torque in the 1k to 3k RPM range than my MK2 TD :shock: I was told the NA pump is in its factory setting but I'm sure the fuel screw was turned up at some point as I'm boosting 15 PSI max .. the extra 5 PSI can't come from the GT20's efficiency alone, or the head work. No grey/black (overfuel) smoke in all conditions.
My water pump is from my retired 1.8L 8v gas engine and it's still leaking. A new water pump and some accompanying hoses will be ordered. It'll be swapped in once my Giles pump (currently shelved) is updated and ready to install. These along with intercooling & cam should be a significant step forward in performance & practicality. -
#184 by fspGTD on 19 Dec, 2005 11:14
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Quote from: "DVST8R"
"Most powerfull Diesel engine in the world"... as compared to what?
You left out an important part of the quote... "specifically most powerful diesel engine in the world." Presumably this is compared to any and all diesel engines (of any possible stripe) in the world.
Specific power is hp per unit of displacement. So if the Audi R10 TDI had 650hp, its specific power (power divided by 5.5 liters) would be 118.12 hp/liter.
But even in that metric, it seems ther are some diesels out there that might have a 650hp R10 beat. According to Hugh Mackinnes' Turbochargers, "As a result of high-pressure turbocharging with intercooling, tractor pullers are obtaining up to 800HP at 4000 rpm from a 400-CID [6.55 liter] diesel." [page 118] This is kind of an old book. But despite that, I don't know if the bar has really gone much higher. The engines he referenced were running triple-staged turbos and over 200psi boost pressure. Specific power of such an engine would be: 800hp / 6.55 = 122 hp/liter. Hmmm...
On closer look, audi actually claimed their R10 to have power "in excess of" 650hp. Since they won't reveal their exact numbers, there is no way to check the validity of their claim. We can determine that their R10 motor would need 671hp to match the 122 hp/liter that the tractor pulling diesels can reach. It certainly seems plausible that they could be making that.
So the bar is apparently higher than I previously though. A 1.6 liter VW turbodiesel would need to put out about 195hp to reach the world record setting 122 hp/liter mark for a diesel. Keep working at it guys. If we can get even close, with smoking, and on an engine less reliable, it's still a major accomplishment IMO competing against the resources of an OEM, to beat them in their own claim, emphasized in a public press release.
A 1.9 liter IDI TD or TDI would need 232hp to be at the possible world record 122 hp / liter mark, by the way. -
#185 by dubCanuck1 on 19 Dec, 2005 11:27
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So I guess my 57 mini-horses has a ways to go
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#186 by Audi80 on 19 Dec, 2005 12:56
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Quote from: "malone"
Just out of curiosity; are there any other diesels that make more than 118HP/L smoke-free?
http://x502.putfile.com/videos/d7-22011333026.avi
That local Volvo has a Nissan 2,8 diesel engine ~350hp. Not too much smoke... Best times for Volvo 12.8 and Mercedes with smoke and 350-400hp 12.7 -
#187 by deepmud on 19 Dec, 2005 13:13
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Quote from: "malone"
deepmud: Evans cooling - interesting.. I did some searching and IMO there's not enough VW testimonials to encourage me to make the switch.
That's what my friend Mike (in Colorado) said
If I could buy it off the shelf, I'd have done it already for ya' a couple years ago:D
Maybe this summer.
1.9td, big intercooler, up to 15 to 20 psi (still have the little turbo) and a lot of constant load (39.5 x 18 Boggers and a roof height near 7 feet) works it pretty hard. The scary part is going to be living with a possible sustained high temp, and considering that "normal". The coolant doesn't cool better, it's actually LESS able to trasfer heat - it just makes high temps safer - at least in theory. It's the theory part that's a little scary. My rig will be completely reconfigured in it's drivetrain and cooling/intercooling as compared to the last time I drove it, so the coversion, if I do it, won't be a good scientific before/after comparison. I would be report results anyway if/when I make the switch. -
#188 by jwspin on 19 Dec, 2005 19:41
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not to be pessimistic but you cant really judge your horsepower very well with a g-tech. i would def like to see the car on a dyno to prove me wrong. my friend owns a dyno and you will be suprised how low numbers cars actually put out.
im not trying to be a bugger though, i would just like to see some dyno charts. would be nice to see how flat the torque curve is.
-jared -
#189 by DVST8R on 19 Dec, 2005 20:13
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Well as far as smoke free power and power per psi, the R10 definatly has everything that I can think of beat, however....
http://www.cumminsracing.com/
Though they do not tell you howmuch power it makes "cummins experts" agree it is well over 1100hp... Which would be 186Hp/L
Next, I know that current pulling tractors make 3000+Hp out of approx 6.6L, converted Diesel to Alcohol run in excess of 5000hp. As we are talking diesel we will stick with the 3000hp which would bring the Hp/L too...~455HP/L
Now stop and think of a 1.6td with that Hp/L ~ 730ish. What you have to keep in mind is that these tractors are prepped for this event and that is it, they run cemented blocks, no coolent, custom everything. Last I heard a IP for a contending tractor was running in the neighbohr hood of 20K USD. They will only run for about 5min at a time, as they have no way to cool the motor, and are torn down after every event. Finally they smoke like a freight train hauling a tire fire. The reason they do this, as they could easliy run a clean, but they don't want the chance to leave any possible power in the pump.
Jake pulling tractor's today while closely garded on the exact psi they are running, it is known that it is in excess of 300psi. I have a relitive in Alberta that does the NW pulling circut with an Alcohol 2wd truck class. While he does not build diesel prostock or promod tractors he is around them week in and week out, and does wrench on them frequently. -
#190 by jackbombay on 19 Dec, 2005 21:31
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What is a cemented block? :oops:
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#191 by DVST8R on 19 Dec, 2005 21:36
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A cemented block is when you fill all of the coolent passages with cement to increase the strenght of a block, it is very common in pure drag cars, or pulling vehicals. Were the event is so short that they don't need a cooling system.
I should adress that it is nolonger cement that they use but a "block cement" formula of some sort. However at one point it was cement that was used. :wink: -
#192 by jwspin on 20 Dec, 2005 06:00
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the alcohol tractors run real clean, there was one alcohol tractor on our circuit this year and it was pretty amazing. no one voted for him to set the sled.
-jared -
#193 by fspGTD on 20 Dec, 2005 08:40
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Quote from: "DVST8R"
"cummins experts" agree it is well over 1100hp... Which would be 186Hp/L
...
current pulling tractors make 3000+Hp out of approx 6.6L, ...which would bring the Hp/L too...~455HP/L
That's amazing. :shock: And I guess Ulrich Baretzky was smoking crack. -
#194 by DVST8R on 20 Dec, 2005 09:16
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Quote from: "jwspin"
the alcohol tractors run real clean, there was one alcohol tractor on our circuit this year and it was pretty amazing. no one voted for him to set the sled.
-jared
Yeah Alcohol, has even a higher energy per which ever unit you choose to use then diesel, as such the diesel guys are really starting to struggle to "keep up" with the monster alcohol guys these days. I'm still a sucker for a pro stock or pro mod diesel tractor though, I have loved them since I was knee high to a duck. :wink:
Jared where are you from? What pulling circut?