1984 Jetta 1.6 N/A Diesel Problem. - page 1 - Troubleshooting - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• 1984 Jetta 1.6 N/A Diesel Problem. by Ceepo88 on 19 Nov, 2012 19:05
• Main points:
  HAVE NOT CHECKED TIMING AND COMPRESSION YET, WAITING FOR TOOLS, ALSO ORDERED A BENTLEY MANUAL.
  Car is getting fuel
  Glow plugs work
  Battery good
  Grounds are good
  Battery cables brand new
  New Starter
  Car starts and runs good with a pull/rolling start
  Car wont start using starter or cranking over under its own
  
  Okay where to start...
  
  A little background story/info on the car. I just bought this 1884 Volkswagen Jetta Coupe, 1.6L N/A Diesel, 5 speed, 137k original miles about 2 weeks ago, car would start and drive but had cold start issue(would crank and crank hot or cold and would take about 10-30 seconds to start, even if i cycled glow plugs, or had it plugged in, and cold start handle pulled out). Previous owner replaced injection pump(supposedly/supposedly rebuilt), new head gasket, new glow plugs, and said he rebuilt injectors along with new plug in block heater. Also previous owner added a small 1-5 psi fuel pump to pull fuel from tank and help feed the injection pump.
  
  Okay so about a week ago I parked the car and went to start it and it just cranked and cranked no starting to the point the battery died. Seemed like it wanted to start but wouldn't (whiting/grey smoke out exhaust pipe). Charged battery and tried again nothing, hooked the car up to my 02 Dodge Ram 2500 Diesel and still would crank slow and not start(stater died). Using the cold start handle in side the car doesn't help either.
  
  1.) I checked the fuel lines as I read I could be losing fuel injection pump prime. Replaced the fuel line going from the filter hosing to the injection pump and the injection pump return line, started car and bled lines. Previous lines on the car were to big for the barbed fitting and he had a hard plastic hose to fill in the space between barbed fitting and new hose(kinda ghetto and looked like it would leak air). Also checked fuel solenoid voltage and its getting 11.89 Volts and clicks when I run a jumper from batter positive to it.
  
  2.) Replaced starter because the one on the car took a crap on me. When i replaced the started I also went ahead and cleaned the grounds for the motor/battery negative on the transmission and frame of the car as I remember reading a members quote of Volkswagen owners club forums said "What do Divorces, Great Coffee and Cars all have in common? They start with good grounds." - briano1234. Also replaced the battery cables with new ones just for peace of mind. Car cranks awesome now, really fast where before on the old starter it wouldn't engage or would have a loud whining noise coming from starter. Also tested batter and it is rated at 650cca and was putting out 580 and passed the test at auto part store.
  
  3.) I pulled number 4 glow plug and checked to see if it got glowing red/orange hot in 7 seconds with some jumper cables hooked up to it and they worked. also check to make sure they are cycling by testing voltage going to them when key is first on and they are in fact getting voltage with key on. Previous owner must bus fuse on the firewall and just bolted the wires together(got a new fuse ordered).
  
  4.) Last thing that really confuses me about all of this. When I tow the car behind my dads pickup with me in the car and I put it in 3rd/4th gear and let the clutch out while rolling(15mph or so) it will start and run awesome! Plenty of power, does shoot black soot clouds out when floored or under a load(seems odd to me for a Volkswagen diesel to do this). Drove the car about 10-15 miles after pull/rolling starting and it didn't die, bog, or run bad. In fact it seemed to run awesome, and have no issues of over heating, no fuel problems(other then soot clouds under a load). My next test is to barrow a injection pump timing gauge and Volkswagen timing set and compression tester and see whats going on their, previous owner used the redneck back woods way of setting injection pump timing. I have a feeling it could be the injection pump timing is off and that's why it had the cold start issue along with now it wont start when using the starter. But why in the heck would it start and run awesome when pulled behind my dads truck?
  
  Sorry for the long post and any help or ideas to try and track this problem down are greatly appreciated.
  
  Pictures of the car:
  
  
  
  
  For future searchers this is posted on three separate forums linked below:
  http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5888405-1984-Jetta-1.6-N-A-Diesel-Problem.&p=79763556#post79763556
  http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=32432.0
  http://volkswagenownersclub.com/vw/showthread.php/31023-1984-Jetta-1.6-N-A-Diesel-Problem.
• #1 by TylerDurden on 19 Nov, 2012 20:06
• You need clear lines, in and out, to see if any air is in the lines (If you don't have them already). Air will keep the IP from reaching proper internal pressure.
  
  Many folks use a bottle of clean fuel and clear lines to/from the IP to rule-out (or verify) upstream fuel supply restrictions.
  
  White smoke often indicates the need for timing advance, which can help significantly. That is the effect of CS lever, add ~5degrees advance, but proper advance for running is pre-requisite.
  
  Best to do the compression check (replace or re-form the injector heat shields afterwards), then set timing on cam and IP.  More tuning tips, once the basics are covered.
• #2 by Ceepo88 on 19 Nov, 2012 20:33
• Okay I will get the clear lines as well as get the timing and compression figured out before we go any further. Just waiting for the tools to get here before I can go any further ha ha ha.
• #3 by burn_your_money on 19 Nov, 2012 20:57
• You should replace the bushing for the starter and also do a voltage drop test for peace of mind. New means nothing these days.
  
  Likely it is a timing issue though.
• #4 by CarlosA on 19 Nov, 2012 22:08
• I replied on another forum with this:
  
  I had the exact same problem, and after changing about as much as you have I was horrified to find out that it was a $12 electrical switch inside the ignition. The contacts were worn and I assume the only reason it eventually started was because the paper thin copper contacts warmed enough to expand and start. If you want an easy test that I didn`t know about - have someone hold a test light on the stop solenoid while cranking, if the light goes out you`ll know immediately whats up. I eventually made this realization when using a hand/thumb starter directly attached to the starter with the key on. Car would start instantly every time.
  
  The light will be on with the key on, but not with the key turned all the way to start/crank position.
  
  Here is a pic of the part which requires disassembly of the clamshell, remove steering wheel and eventually the metal part that wraps the steering column, there is a screw hidden inside:
  
  
  
  BTW, this seems like a miracle problem but it actually happened again on my second car.
• #5 by TylerDurden on 19 Nov, 2012 23:48
• I wonder if there would be much smoke if the cutoff were closed...
  
  But I will concur that those switches go bad. I replaced two on my first rabbit (gasser).
• #6 by Ceepo88 on 20 Nov, 2012 01:26
• I'll give those a try and see what happens, never hurts to eliminate a possible culprit. Thanks for that ideas guys. Getting the timing tools tomorrow.
• #7 by 745 turbogreasel on 20 Nov, 2012 03:14
• When does the lift pump run?  Can you run it a few minutes, and look for a drip of fuel behind the pump drive pulley?   That one can keep you from priming even when fuel is readily available.
• #8 by Ceepo88 on 20 Nov, 2012 18:38
• Just finished resetting the injection pump timing, my dial gauge displayed .25 at top dead center, and I adjusted it to .95. Got car back together cranked and cranked and cranked and nothing, car seemed like it wanted to start more, gonna try and re-bleed the lines again and see what happens. Next is compression test but I didn't have the right size wrench or socket to remove injectors so that will have to wait.
• #9 by R.O.R-2.0 on 20 Nov, 2012 19:09
• i vote for an air leak/losing prime at the pump..
  
  thats the only time i see crank times that long..
  
  unless all of my glow plugs go tits up..
• #10 by Ceepo88 on 20 Nov, 2012 19:54
• Just went and pull started it, fired right up. Shut it off and tried to start it up again after it got warm and nothing, just cranks over and over and over and over sputters a little bit but nothing... makes no sense to me...
  
  Video of car running after pull start.
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2TKORcqoeY&feature=youtu.be
  
• #11 by burn_your_money on 20 Nov, 2012 20:07
• Is it still smoking when you are cranking it over?
  
  What were the voltage drop test results?
• #12 by TylerDurden on 20 Nov, 2012 20:59
• Not shtiitng you, clear lines are a must.
  
  
  
  Tygon or polyurethane. Vinyl kinda sucks, but it can work with good clamps.
  
  
  A couple other tips:
  
  Bottle feed the sucker (send and return) to see if the IP can even pull fuel from a short distance.
  
  It the IP can't draw from a bottle, the vanes in the lift section may be stuck. Filling the IP with ATF or Diesel-Purge for a day or two may help free-up the vanes.
  
  If the IP can run with lines to/from a bottle (with no air bubbles), there is likely an air leak or restriction in the lines from the tank. There may still be a "water separator" by the right rear wheel - bypass it (most folks totally remove it), as it is prone to admit air or leak fuel and leave you stranded.
  
  
• #13 by Ceepo88 on 20 Nov, 2012 22:26
• I'm gonna get a video of cranking it in the morning with some light, ill keep testing things. I refuse to take this to a mechanic lol...
• #14 by CarlosA on 21 Nov, 2012 04:18
• Quote from: Ceepo88 on 20 Nov, 2012 22:26

  I'm gonna get a video of cranking it in the morning with some light, ill keep testing things. I refuse to take this to a mechanic lol...
  

  
  Did you end up testing the stop solenoid?
  
  I have a leaky pump that is sucking air when running but not leaking when off - and my crank times are zero. I do get the smoke, etc as a result of the air going into the injectors. And with the bad switch I did get the smoke as well, not really sure how but it happened.