Cannot time the injection pump, WTH is wrong? - page 1 - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• Cannot time the injection pump, WTH is wrong? by Black Smokin' Diesel on 24 May, 2007 08:01
• I had the Jetta TD (87) towed to a vw shop this morning so I could get the timing properly done. As it turns out, the pump cannot be timed. The dial gauge reads nothing, zero, niet, nada. This shop has a pretty good reputation and with the amount of VW diesels in quebec, I have no doubt they know how they work.
  
  Here's a short resume of what work I did on the engine. I replaced the head, injectors (mercedes, known to be good) and heatshields, new glowplugs, new lifters and used a 1.9TD headgasket. Replaced the crank, intermediate shaft and cam seal, new timing belt and tensionner, aluminum thermostat housing and non-tracked IS pulley were used. There's a bit more but you get the idea.
  
  I got the engine running yesterday. It smoked badly, had little power and the injectors were loud as hell (big rig loud). After three to four minutes, the engine shut off and never started again. I replaced the head because one of the injector boss was cracked. The HG was due for along with the TB. Prior to all this, the engine had started to develop a loud injector knocking. This was the breaking point for me and decided to get dirty. The only thing the engine does is crank and crank and crank. Sometimes it starts for one or two seconds but dies immediatley even when giving it gas. My guess is that fuel accumulates in the cylinder and ignites briefly.
  
  Now the car is sitting docks, with an injection pump that can't be timed. Any ideas as to why the IP can't be timed?
  
  Here are some pics of the car, just for kicks.
  
  
  
  
  Who can tell me what the sensor located on the crankcase vent tube near the intake tube is for?
  
• #1 by jimfoo on 24 May, 2007 08:12
• If the dial indicator shows nothing, I'd guess the pump is hosed. You sure the pully isn't slipping on the shaft?
• #2 by Black Smokin' Diesel on 24 May, 2007 08:17
• Quote from: "jimfoo"

  If the dial indicator shows nothing, I'd guess the pump is hosed. You sure the pully isn't slipping on the shaft?

  
  
  Pulley is on tight, I torqued it at 33lb-ft like the bentley says, with a locking washer.
  
  

  Quote from: "libbybapa"

  If it starts at all, then the plunger IS moving and the reading of "0" on the dial indicator is an error.
  
  Andrew

  
  
  So the dial would be faulty? Could bad injectors cause this?
• #3 by jimfoo on 24 May, 2007 08:25
• Maybe they don't have the correct dial indicator, one long enough to contact the plunger? What if you loosen the bolts on the IP enough to be able to move it, have someone try to start the car, and try rotating the pump?
• #4 by Black Smokin' Diesel on 24 May, 2007 08:46
• Quote from: "libbybapa"

  As Jimfoo suggested, you are sure the key is installed in the pump shaft and that the sprocket is not spinning on the shaft, right?
  
  Andrew

  
  
  100% positive. I check it, and the shop did too.
  
  

  Quote from: "jimfoo"

  Maybe they don't have the correct dial indicator, one long enough to contact the plunger? What if you loosen the bolts on the IP enough to be able to move it, have someone try to start the car, and try rotating the pump?

  
  
  I already tried that but to no avail.
• #5 by Black Smokin' Diesel on 24 May, 2007 08:50
• Quote from: "libbybapa"

  Bad injectors won't cause a "0" reading on the dial indicator.  The dial indicator shows the movement of the plunger in the pump.  If the dial indicator is giving an accurate reading of "0", then the plunger would not be moving.  In that case no fuel would be injected at all and there would be no signs of life with the motor.  If is starts at all, even for brief spurts, then the person using the dial indicator is not doing it correctly.
  
  Andrew

  
  
  Well the guy there told me how they time the pump and it was the same as described by the bentley. The gauge didn't seem broken, it moved with slight pressure on the needle.
• #6 by jimfoo on 24 May, 2007 09:22
• If that's the case, then it sounds like the pump is hosed. Maybe something snapped inside and allowed it to turn somewhat, but the more it turned, the more it wore down until now it just slips?
• #7 by Black Smokin' Diesel on 24 May, 2007 09:26
• Quote from: "jimfoo"

  If that's the case, then it sounds like the pump is hosed. Maybe something snapped inside and allowed it to turn somewhat, but the more it turned, the more it wore down until now it just slips?

  
  
  Maybe. Prior to replacing the head, the injectors started to knock a lot and the car lost power. After the swap it was extremely loud, had no power. Now it just won't start.
• #8 by jimfoo on 24 May, 2007 09:31
• Well hopefully it isn't to bad to fix. Maybe time for a Giles pump.  :wink:
• #9 by rallydiesel on 24 May, 2007 09:33
• I believe the sensor on the CCV tube is not a sensor at all, but a simple heater so ice doesn't form and clog the CCV tube in cold weather.
• #10 by Black Smokin' Diesel on 24 May, 2007 09:46
• Quote from: "jimfoo"

  Well hopefully it isn't to bad to fix. Maybe time for a Giles pump.  :wink:

  
  
  I'd love to but my budget is low. I'm just a poor student
  
  

  Quote from: "rallydiesel"

  I believe the sensor on the CCV tube is not a sensor at all, but a simple heater so ice doesn't form and clog the CCV tube in cold weather.

  
  
  Interesting. Thanks for the answer.
• #11 by Black Smokin' Diesel on 24 May, 2007 11:54
• Quote from: "libbybapa"

  I would pull the timing plug bolt out and use a small screwdriver as a feeler while I rotated the engine by hand.  The end of the plunger (which the screwdriver should be touching) should move in and out 1/8" twice per crank rotation (4 times per pump rotation).  If it does, then the dial indicator was not used correctly.  If it doesn't, then the pump is toast.
  
  Regardless, if the plunger was not moving you would not even get a sputter from the engine.
  
  Andrew

  
  
  If the pump is good and the plunger is moving, why won't it start? The pump is timed approximately using the marks on the pump and pulley, shouldn't it at least idle?
• #12 by mk2diesel on 24 May, 2007 19:41
• its not qiute that simple  with diesels ....   the pump has to be timed in a certain range ( for proper fuel dispersion ... etc) or the engine won't fire at all ... a couple of mm either way will make it impossible to even start it .... spec for 1.6 na  is .89 mm - .96 mm      either side of this and its a no go situation ....
• #13 by jtanguay on 24 May, 2007 19:53
• Quote from: "mk2diesel"

  its not qiute that simple  with diesels ....   the pump has to be timed in a certain range ( for proper fuel dispersion ... etc) or the engine won't fire at all ... a couple of mm either way will make it impossible to even start it .... spec for 1.6 na  is .89 mm - .96 mm      either side of this and its a no go situation ....

  
  
  i've my 1.6TD set to around 1.06 or so...
• #14 by burn_your_money on 24 May, 2007 21:00
• Crack the injector lines open and crank the car over, see if you are getting any fuel. I'm sure you are familiar with the checks if you aren't.
  
  I agree that you should try the screwdriver method