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Different looking injectors bleeding lots of air into return line
by
fatmobile
on 13 Sep, 2012 22:14
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I've been troubleshooting a friend's diesel Jetta project for him while he tunes a gasser Jetta of mine.
The mainshaft seal on the pump was bad after replacing it and installing a new belt it starts and runs but still has a bunch of foam leaving the pump.
Small clear line from the injectors shows some air in that line so I pinch it off and the foam stops.
The air is coming from the injectors.
They don't look like other injectors:
There is a built-up area around the small barbs on top. Usually it's tapered around it.
Has anyone seen these before?
Who sells them?
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#1
by
Dakotakid
on 14 Sep, 2012 21:13
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Are those CAV's?
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#2
by
fatmobile
on 16 Sep, 2012 19:15
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I'll check for writing on them when I pull them out.
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#3
by
burn_your_money
on 16 Sep, 2012 19:38
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I've seen that style before. I think it's quite early. I think there are 3 different body styles of injectors for the 1.6
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#4
by
fatmobile
on 17 Sep, 2012 10:31
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Are those CAV's?
Hmmm, yes,... yes they are.
Does that mean something?
I've heard of Lucas/Cav pumps are these injectors for the VW diesel?
Anyone have an idea why they are shoving air into the return line?
I got 2 of them out and tested; the breaking pressure is around 1900psi the spray pattern is good. They chatter nice.
There was some fuel in the bottom of the injector holes, pretty wet.
They might have reused heat shields without reshaping them.
The other 2 injectors are in scary-tight and I don't have an impact wrench.
Whoever worked on them last put antisieze on 1 of the two I pulled out.
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#5
by
Dakotakid
on 17 Sep, 2012 11:26
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There MUST be at least one hungry trash can nearby....ain't there?
Yes, CAV provided components to VW in the earliest Rabbits. They were in the 1.5's.
However, it may be a matter of injection lines which have been formerly overtightened (regarding the reverse leak).
The two injectors fighting release may NOT have heat shields below them. Seen it before....just last week actually on a car recently picked up.
In that car, I had a royal (tip of hat to Lucas point of origin....quality stuff....remember the old Triumphs and BSA's....ahh ya....) terrible time getting the injector to back out. I baptized the seam with lots of Free All (right Lucas?) multiple times and did a lot of praying (humor, humor) and see-sawed the injector with more baptizisms until it eventually came out. I think it took 1.5 hours to accomplish. I would have used a propane torch if I would have had it.
I lucked out, as this head did not sustain any erosion under the injector.
Looks like you are going to have to break into your secret stash and provide your pal with some good injectors......that's what pals are for!
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#6
by
mystery3
on 17 Sep, 2012 23:02
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Lucas mechanical parts are fine, it's the electronics that were bad.
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#7
by
fatmobile
on 19 Sep, 2012 14:53
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I heard the lucas pumps didn't like vegy much either.
I did dig into my stash of used injectors. I have tested many of them and have the breaking pressure written on them.
That solved the problem, it was only the # 1 injector that was shoving air toward the pump.
The only other injector I could get out was #3 and it was set close to 1900psi too, luckily I had an injector close to that so I didn't have to change the shim.
Both of the CAV injectors sprayed and chattered real nice.
I'm going to let him try getting the other 2 injectors loose with an impact wrench.
There's still a lot of white smoke.
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#8
by
Dakotakid
on 19 Sep, 2012 21:10
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Does an impact tend to spare the vulnerable threaded portion?
I would be REAL tempted to use some heat around the injector prior to the job. Along with lots of holy water.
Personally, I would also heat the crap out of the injector and let the heat soak multiple times. Who cares if the injector is ruined? He's got a lot more to loose if he breaks off that boss.
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#9
by
fatmobile
on 23 Sep, 2012 20:49
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I once had a hard time getting one of the small bolts out, the ones holding the upper rad coolant hose flange to the head.
I put heat to it and as I was heating it the head gasket started leaking coolant in that area.
It sealled back up when I took the heat away but I worry about head warp when using heat.
I think these will need an impact wrench because using a breaker bar with a cheater bar makes it hard to hold the socket straight up. I don't want to push the injector sideways and risk putting stress on the thin aluminum surrounding the injector. I just know if I put any more stress to it the whole injector would be shoved sidways hard if it ever did break loose.
The impact wrench will remain straight up.
I'm having a real problem timing it. I tried timing it by ear but it didn't start to clack and run poorly until around .070".
It shouldn't even run at timing that advanced.
I moved it back to .039"; clattery and white smoke.
I figure there is another bad injector or 2.
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#10
by
Smokey Eddy
on 28 Sep, 2012 09:24
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Remember that a cold IDI diesel will commonly smoke a little white until it warms up at least a little.
I would be very careful heating the injectors. The head is made of aluminum and actually does melt really easily. However, i also must agree that heat is the best way to make aluminum and steel let go of each other. When you turn the injector out just make sure you are PUSHING NOT PULLING on your breaker bar and brace the socket against the head with your other hand.
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#11
by
fatmobile
on 02 Oct, 2012 23:36
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I don't think pushing or pulling has anything to do with the top of the injector being pushed sideways.
Holding the top of the socket/extension in line with the injector while pushing or pulling hard on the cheater bar on the end of a breaker bar is going to cause the top of the injector to get shoved to the side when/if it ever breaks loose.
There is just no way to keep the injector from getting forced sideways with that much leverage.
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#12
by
theman53
on 03 Oct, 2012 04:49
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Your not getting it. Yes the socket will put a force on the head. That is why you want to have it so that if you are loosening the breaker bar is to the right of the injector and you are pushing toward the head. That way, when the force on the side of the injector is present you are pushing into 5" of aluminum. If you pull away, the force is put onto the 3/8" of boss on the front.
Also, like he said, brace the socket with your hand to minimize that force. You said it as holding it to keep it inline, which is the same thing.
Main point for readers: Be careful when taking out the injectors.
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#13
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 03 Oct, 2012 09:54
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Your not getting it. Yes the socket will put a force on the head. That is why you want to have it so that if you are loosening the breaker bar is to the right of the injector and you are pushing toward the head. That way, when the force on the side of the injector is present you are pushing into 5" of aluminum. If you pull away, the force is put onto the 3/8" of boss on the front.
Also, like he said, brace the socket with your hand to minimize that force. You said it as holding it to keep it inline, which is the same thing.
Main point for readers: Be careful when taking out the injectors.
push the torque towards the head, then it loads the BEEFY side of the threaded boss..
if you PULL torque away from the head, then it can crack the injector boss..
ive seen my grandpa do this before.. he pulls towards the front, i push towards the firewall (when i dont use an impact.)
always loosen and tighten with the torque rotation towards the head casting..
main point: just do it right the first time
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#14
by
Dakotakid
on 03 Oct, 2012 19:27
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This is like reading War and Peace....
Tell you what, let's try a new strategy here: see if you can unscrew the top portion of the injector and see if that will relieve the stress on the bottom portion. I thought of this the other day when I was driving along....and then promptly forgot to tell you.
Heat it up first and give 'er the wood.
