Is my pump timing retarded or something else? - page 1 - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• Is my pump timing retarded or something else? by wil892 on 04 May, 2009 14:24
• I put a new head and injectors on my 1991 GTD as the head gasket was leaking and the pre chambers had cracks. The car had a 3 notch gasket on before and ran fine so I quickly measured the protrusion and it was right on the border between 2 and 3 so I just got another 3 notch.
  
  Basically I put it all back together and towed it to a diesel shop to have the timing set up. When I got it home I started it up, it missed a bit until it warmed and then it settled into perfect idle. I then re-torqued the head bolts.
  
  On the first drive I was amazed at how the new injectors let it rev better and pull slightly better.
  However I noticed the turbo cuts in slightly later than normal.
  
  After using it a bit it seems that unless the cold start level is fully pulled out until it is a bit warm it smokes some white smoke on idle and doesnt idle as smoothly. If I pull out the lever when it is doing this the smoke dissapears completely and it idles fine.
  Also starting when hot takes a 2-3 revs whereas it used to start instantly before the head gasket. I have disconnected the glow plug sensor for now so it starts instantly when hot.
  
  Does this sound timing related? Seeing as the cold start lever advances the timing I'm guessing it could be a little retarded. I don't really want to annoy the diesel shop by questioning their work.
  
  Also could anyone give my the timing specs for the engine, its a 1.6 with engine code 'SB' and an output of 80bhp, it has 155 bar injectors (new bosch remans) and hydraulic tappets.
  
  Thanks
  Will
• #1 by rabbitman on 04 May, 2009 14:28
• Sounds retarded to me.
  
  "try advancing it half a pencil line."
• #2 by wil892 on 04 May, 2009 15:19
• I think i'll take it back to the shop if everyone thinks it could be retarded I'd rather not advance it too much and blow my new head gasket.
  
  In the meantime will I create any unnessecary wear to the fuel pump if I run it with the advance lever out all the time?
• #3 by burn_your_money on 04 May, 2009 15:52
• Quote from: "wil892"

  
  In the meantime will I create any unnessecary wear to the fuel pump if I run it with the advance lever out all the time?

  
  
  Yes you will if you are at a low RPM a lot of the time. The timing piston gets smashed up. If you are just pulling it out for starting then you won't have any problems.
  
  You might want to ring the shop and ask them what they set the pump to. It should be around 0.90mm if they are going by factory specs (I think)
• #4 by Rabbit TD on 04 May, 2009 18:49
• I would do what Rabbitman says also, just bump it up a little at a time and see if it helps.  It sounds definately timing related to me too.  Just go a little at a time doing this and you will be fine.  I don't think you can really go with the initial factory settings anyway as they are for a new engine and trying to comply with emission levels as well.  I've had the same pump and injectors on 2 different engines both of which have over 500 lbs compression and I had to set it higher on one engine than the other with everything else pretty equal.  Right now I have a 1.6 T/D with a N/A pump and rebuilt 155 Giles injectors.  The stock setting is around 1.0 and to get it to run and start like it did on the N/A engine I have it at 1.20 and it starts and acts just like it did on the other engine at 1.0 so a little experimmenting won't hurt but you really never know where you are without the indicator gauge for future reference, I'd be lost without it.  But just bump it up a little without going nuts with it and you'll be fine.
• #5 by wil892 on 06 May, 2009 03:10
• Thanks for all the help. I'll adjust it myself and see where that gets me.
  
  Before I move the pump does it have to be at TDC or can I just adjust it as it is. (the Cam-Cranktiming have been set properly and tension set properly as well)
  Do the pumps turn freely once the bolts are loosened or will I have to use some force
  Should I move it 1/2mm or so to start with. (Advancing is toward the towards the head?)
• #6 by arb on 07 May, 2009 07:31
• Quote from: "wil892"

  Thanks for all the help. I'll adjust it myself and see where that gets me.
  
  Before I move the pump does it have to be at TDC or can I just adjust it as it is. (the Cam-Cranktiming have been set properly and tension set properly as well)
  Do the pumps turn freely once the bolts are loosened or will I have to use some force
  Should I move it 1/2mm or so to start with. (Advancing is toward the towards the head?)

  
  
  Setting it to TDC is for doing the timing with a dial indicator. If you are just going to adjust it a little "by ear", you don't need TDC. Every pump I've timing required a bit of force to rotate. I always use the dial, so I don't loosen the bolts too much as slop will affect the timing a little. Be sure to get all the bolts. The one on the injector line side of the pump is easy to miss.
• #7 by Rabbit TD on 07 May, 2009 16:47
• If you are just going to bump it up a little without the indicator first make yourself a set of reference marks with a scribe or something that will make as small a mark as you can see at the mating surfaces so you know where you started at.  It's very sensitive making a change of just .05mm, I've found it easier to just tap it with a mallet watching the indicator as it doesn't take much movement to make a noticible change.
  It's times like this that makes the indicator worth it's weight in gold.  I thought, "I hate to lay out that much money for something I'll probably only ever use once or twice" but if you like these little diesels and want to tinker with them you definately need one to acurately know where things are each time to diagnose and compare changes you have and will make. It seems like I use mine as much as the 17 m/m socket.
• #8 by wil892 on 08 May, 2009 03:41
• Thanks for the advice. Would you not recommend advancing it slightly without the indicator. I have thought about buying the tool but to be honest this 'should' be the last time I tamper with the timing until it needs a new belt.
  
  Realisticly could I completely destroy it if I use a very thin scribe and go from there.
  
  I could go to the diesel shop again and have it advanced properly with the dial indicator but they may charge me, and if its not necesserally needed then it may be a waste of money.
• #9 by gigaz2 on 08 May, 2009 03:53
• my engine ran 180º out of timing... in another build I got so pissed I advanced timing one tooth at the time all the way around.
  it still works fine
• #10 by vanbcguy on 08 May, 2009 08:20
• Quote from: "wil892"

  Thanks for the advice. Would you not recommend advancing it slightly without the indicator. I have thought about buying the tool but to be honest this 'should' be the last time I tamper with the timing until it needs a new belt.
  
  Realisticly could I completely destroy it if I use a very thin scribe and go from there.
  
  I could go to the diesel shop again and have it advanced properly with the dial indicator but they may charge me, and if its not necesserally needed then it may be a waste of money.

  
  
  You can pretty safely advance it without the dial indicator, it's just a pain in the butt to know WHAT you've done.  
  
  That's the big thing really - it's not reproducible.  You get the car running perfectly, then one day you need to move your pump for some reason and can't get it back to where it was before!
  
  The dial indicator is great to suggest a starting point for tuning (ie if you have the pump off all together) but what it's really for is being able to record what you did in the end.  Once you know your particular pump and engine likes to run at 1.07 you can make sure you set it to 1.07 every time.  Plus over the years as the car gets older you get some clues - oh hey, now it doesn't run right unless I set it to 1.09... Guess my pump is wearing down some more...
• #11 by rabbitman on 21 May, 2009 20:12
• I never use a dial indicator and usually get it good enough every time.
• #12 by wil892 on 22 May, 2009 07:59
• Thanks for all the replys, I started adjusting the timing a fraction at a time last week, and now i've got to a stage where there is no smoke at all when cold and the turbo starts to boost at 2k rpm which is soo much better.
  There seems to be absolutely no black smoke at all even when flooring it so I may turn up the boost fueling soon to a point where the smoke is slightly visible. Plus its doing over 50mpg which is excellent.
  
  Couple of  questions though, when its cold I pull the cold lever out slightly to increase the idle speed which isnt nessesary but I prefer faster idle when cold. For the first minute or so if I have the window down and I accelerate a bit it sounds kinda more diesely . Nothing I'm worried about but almost as if it was a little too advanced. However after a minute or so when there is a bit of warmth in the cylinders this dissapears and makes its usual diesel but not diesely noise, if that makes any sense at all.
  
  Also, i've done about 400 miles since new head gasket, head and injectors. Do I need to retorque the head bolts at 1000 miles as I have heard mixed opinions, also the VW engine shop I bought the head off told me not to.
  
  Anyway, im really glad the forum is running again. When its down it made me realise how much I use it and that it has saved me quite a bit of money (garage advice and bills). Thanks
• #13 by Rabbit TD on 22 May, 2009 17:17
• I'm glad you got it running better by playing with the timing little by little.  It sounds like you have it doing pretty good now with that MPG and all.  That's the thing about the indicator like Vanbcguy said, it's not reproducable and knowing what your engine likes unless you experiment and know exactly what and how much you have done.  The mechanic probably just set it to what the sticker said,  If I set any of the ones I've had to the factory setting they smoke like crazy and have no power at all.  To me if it starts good, quiets down after it warms up, doesn't smoke excessivly and doesn't get hot what could be wrong no matter where the timing is and especially the good MPG you have.   But it would be nice to know where you are now to be able to get there again if need be and with these things there will probably be one
• #14 by burn_your_money on 23 May, 2009 08:24
• Quote from: wil892 on 22 May, 2009 07:59

  Couple of  questions though, when its cold I pull the cold lever out slightly to increase the idle speed which isnt nessesary but I prefer faster idle when cold. For the first minute or so if I have the window down and I accelerate a bit it sounds kinda more diesely . Nothing I'm worried about but almost as if it was a little too advanced. However after a minute or so when there is a bit of warmth in the cylinders this dissapears and makes its usual diesel but not diesely noise, if that makes any sense at all.
  

  
  I think that is caused by the sudden temperature change in the combustion chamber as the fuel ignites in the cold engine