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Problem with head studs
by
florigolf
on 27 Apr, 2009 03:21
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Does anyone know why this happened? After rebuilding my 1.6 hyd, looking to convert to turbo, I installed ARP studs thinking they would do a better job sealing the head under boost conditions. But after a week of running, before the turbo is even installed yet, the head gaskets are oozing a little oil next to the oil passages. I was going to retotque them to a higher torque (90-100ftlbs), but the assembly lube is gone at this point and the nuts tighten with a loud cracking sound like the stretch bolts do. So precise torque readings are impossible to obtain. I used a Beck-Arnley 1-notch gasket without any gasket sealant. I may have to go back to stretch bolts, the head wasn't leaking before I tried the studs...
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#1
by
Turbinepowered
on 27 Apr, 2009 04:05
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How warped were the head and block deck surfaces when you put the whole assembly back together?
Once you've relaxed the head by removing it, it won't flatten back out like it was before when you reinstall it. It may be slightly warped and not leaking yet, but once it's been allowed to relax it will go back down with all the warp present.
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#2
by
jtanguay
on 27 Apr, 2009 06:27
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its possible to install the head gasket upside down, just a thought... but it does sound like your head might be warped. are you sure the oil is from the head gasket though? the valve cover is very prone to leaking, especially if the cork gasket was never replaced after removing it. clean the area and drive around to make sure.
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#3
by
myke_w
on 27 Apr, 2009 06:39
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I haven't had great luck with large gaskets in any other brand than Reinz or Elring.
I'm not trying to blame that right off the top - but don't completely factor it out if you can't find any other obvious culprit.
I had a pal that recently bought a complete beck gasket set for a Subaru and every singe one of the larger gaskets spewed.
Very disappointing - anyway I'd recommend sticking to European made brand names if possible in the future.
Also - FYI - gasket sealant isn't needed, these should be installed clean and dry.
Good luck and let us know what you find
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#4
by
53 willys
on 27 Apr, 2009 07:14
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if it's a fiber gasket with ARP studs and NO retorque while warm WITH coolant pressure then yes your blown gasket does not surprise me one bit....I did the same thing and blew my fiber gasket on the test drive.
ARP studs do not "stretch" like the stock bolts and I think it really effects the initial gasket smash.
IMHO retorque on ARP studs is EVEN MORE important then on stock bolts.
if this is a MLS gasket then IMHO from my own experience is more TQ....and aviation gasket sealer is needed for a good MLS seal..yeah most say you do NOT need sealer...but that only holds true if the block and head have a smooth enough RA finish to even seal a MLS gasket.(witch most machine shops do not have a smooth enough final finish)
BTW my block and head where FLAT and TRUE...fresh from the machine shop and it still would not seal my fiber gasket.......
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#5
by
myke_w
on 27 Apr, 2009 08:11
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that only holds true if the block and head have a smooth enough RA finish to even seal a MLS gasket
True enough - if your surfaces aren't perfectly flat and smooth you might need some help.
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#6
by
saurkraut
on 27 Apr, 2009 09:47
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if it's a fiber gasket with ARP studs and NO retorque while warm WITH coolant pressure then yes your blown gasket does not surprise me one bit....I did the same thing and blew my fiber gasket on the test drive.
ARP studs do not "stretch" like the stock bolts and I think it really effects the initial gasket smash.
IMHO retorque on ARP studs is EVEN MORE important then on stock bolts.
if this is a MLS gasket then IMHO from my own experience is more TQ....and aviation gasket sealer is needed for a good MLS seal..yeah most say you do NOT need sealer...but that only holds true if the block and head have a smooth enough RA finish to even seal a MLS gasket.(witch most machine shops do not have a smooth enough final finish)
BTW my block and head where FLAT and TRUE...fresh from the machine shop and it still would not seal my fiber gasket.......
How's your custom made MLS holding up? Did you use sealer on it? What brand?
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#7
by
gigaz2
on 27 Apr, 2009 10:40
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Does anyone know why this happened? After rebuilding my 1.6 hyd, looking to convert to turbo, I installed ARP studs thinking they would do a better job sealing the head under boost conditions. But after a week of running, before the turbo is even installed yet, the head gaskets are oozing a little oil next to the oil passages. I was going to retotque them to a higher torque (90-100ftlbs), but the assembly lube is gone at this point and the nuts tighten with a loud cracking sound like the stretch bolts do. So precise torque readings are impossible to obtain. I used a Beck-Arnley 1-notch gasket without any gasket sealant. I may have to go back to stretch bolts, the head wasn't leaking before I tried the studs...
the stretch bolts only make that sound when there is something in the hole, when assembling an engine, if the bolts make that sound, I take everything apart again and make sure the holes are REALLY clean.
blocks get cracked by this
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#8
by
53 willys
on 27 Apr, 2009 10:55
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if it's a fiber gasket with ARP studs and NO retorque while warm WITH coolant pressure then yes your blown gasket does not surprise me one bit....I did the same thing and blew my fiber gasket on the test drive.
ARP studs do not "stretch" like the stock bolts and I think it really effects the initial gasket smash.
IMHO retorque on ARP studs is EVEN MORE important then on stock bolts.
if this is a MLS gasket then IMHO from my own experience is more TQ....and aviation gasket sealer is needed for a good MLS seal..yeah most say you do NOT need sealer...but that only holds true if the block and head have a smooth enough RA finish to even seal a MLS gasket.(witch most machine shops do not have a smooth enough final finish)
BTW my block and head where FLAT and TRUE...fresh from the machine shop and it still would not seal my fiber gasket.......
How's your custom made MLS holding up? Did you use sealer on it? What brand?
my MLS is hold ing well....altough I'm still building my new exhaust manifold to fit my turbo so I only have 1000 miles on it and 25 pounds of boost.
other members on here have pm'ed me and said they have ordered and are running the same gasket with 20+psi and no issues.
I used the "permatex aviation gasket sealer"....after it did not seal the first time!
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#9
by
53 willys
on 27 Apr, 2009 10:59
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Does anyone know why this happened? After rebuilding my 1.6 hyd, looking to convert to turbo, I installed ARP studs thinking they would do a better job sealing the head under boost conditions. But after a week of running, before the turbo is even installed yet, the head gaskets are oozing a little oil next to the oil passages. I was going to retotque them to a higher torque (90-100ftlbs), but the assembly lube is gone at this point and the nuts tighten with a loud cracking sound like the stretch bolts do. So precise torque readings are impossible to obtain. I used a Beck-Arnley 1-notch gasket without any gasket sealant. I may have to go back to stretch bolts, the head wasn't leaking before I tried the studs...
the stretch bolts only make that sound when there is something in the hole, when assembling an engine, if the bolts make that sound, I take everything apart again and make sure the holes are REALLY clean.
blocks get cracked by this
I had this same problem with retorqe...I used the block heater and heated mine up all night (full with coolant) and then re TQ'ed my studs to 110ftlbs with a snap-on digital wrench.
doing it this way stops the oil from washing all the ARP moly lube off the threads and makes for a REALLY smooth retq...I'm not saying it's the best or only way to do this....i'ts just what worked for me.....
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#10
by
rallydiesel
on 27 Apr, 2009 11:12
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My MLS HG with ARP studs seems to be weeping a bit of oil. However, it could be from one of the other numerous oil and coolant leaks I've had going. I just replaced the main bearings and used gasket seal on all my other leaks so we'll see if it is fact my HG. Even so, it doesn't affect my coolant pressure or the performance. Next time I take my head off, I will get another new MLS gasket and use some type of sealant.
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#11
by
saurkraut
on 27 Apr, 2009 12:33
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I used the block heater and heated mine up all night (full with coolant) and then re TQ'ed
Wow, Nice idea! Essentially a full heat cycle with no combustion stress on the gasket.
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#12
by
jtanguay
on 27 Apr, 2009 13:06
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I used the block heater and heated mine up all night (full with coolant) and then re TQ'ed
Wow, Nice idea! Essentially a full heat cycle with no combustion stress on the gasket.
yea thats a really good idea, but i wonder if the combustion stress is the reason for the re-torque? as in, if the head deforms a little from all the stress?
but if it worked good for you, then job well done.
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#13
by
53 willys
on 27 Apr, 2009 13:15
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it worked VERY well....I easily went to 110ftlbs....maybe I was lucky?? or maybe it was a different squish rate on my Thailand gasket..but it's worked well so far....110"felt perfect...every stud felt the same as I came to a stop.
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#14
by
florigolf
on 30 Apr, 2009 03:07
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Thanks for the ideas.I will check for warpage and try a better quality gasket later. The question is, does aviation gasket sealant help or not?