G-Teched my 1.6TD - Baseline Runs - page 5 - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• #60 by malone on 08 Jun, 2005 22:43
• Quote from: "QuickTD"

  The #4 cylinder has the poorest coolant flow around it so it appears to have sustained the most damage while #1 appears relatively unscathed.
  
  When you get the next one built I would suggest that you get the pyrometer installed before you do too much 160km/h cruising...

  
  
  Good info. As for your suggestion, I'm pretty sure I already know that :?
  
  The pyrometer is the reason why my older Jetta 1.6TD is still alive. A pyrometer was also installed in the Golf the first day it started but unfortunately I did not install a thermocouple early enough (so no pyro reading), as already stated earlier in this thread. I also used to unplug the Golf's LDA so it doesn't overfuel much at all (low EGT). However, since the boost problem was partially solved after the exhaust upgrade that Sunday, the LDA was reconnected and I then got too excited with the new found power. For only fifteen minutes. It's my first engine failure as well. Lesson learned.
  
  May I suggest not street racing a police cruiser again like you did a few weeks ago? Getting busted for that here could result in a license suspension for a year. I wish I got off as easy as you did.
  
  Sorry, I just felt like kicking myself or not having installed a thermocouple earlier for the Golf, and since the engine failure I'll feel peeved if someone suggests using a pyrometer like I've never heard of one before.
• #61 by fspGTD on 08 Jun, 2005 23:31
• Malone - looks like good progress.  Bottom end damage $uck$ man, sorry to hear.
  
  I think I spot a headgasket leak!  The "blackened" area of the headgasket fire ring between problem cylinder and water jacket on the back side (opposite of prechamber) between cylinder and water jacket opening that is towards the inside of the block.  Looks like a classic overheat related cylinder pressure to water jacket head gasket leak.  [Edit:] here I added a circle to your pic around the spot that looks to me like a headgasket leak:
  
  
  Blow-by out the dipstick is a separate problem...  and yes, I think it sounds reasonable that the pistons expanded from excessive heat enough to seize with the cylinder walls.  An interesting thing to note about the scoring is that it couldn't possibly come from the rings, because it extends upwards to the top of the block beyond where the upper ring travels.  The scoring must have been caused by the piston itself.
  
  The interesting thing is, your piston tops look fine - I don't see any melted or missing aluminum areas, etc as I have seen on some other engines.  Maybe this engine had relatively tight piston-bore clearances, so the excess EGTs caused the pistons to seize before the piston tops melted?  Interesting...
  
  Hate to say something perhaps smart-alec, but 22 psi is a LOT to run without an intercooler!  (regardless of compressor efficiency.)  I'll bet your intake air temps were pretty high up there... maybe they surpassed 300 deg F.  (I have measured over 200 deg. F at 14 psi out of a Garrett 1.6lTD turbo... 22 psi is quite a bit more!)  Combining those kinds of intake air temps with copious fueling levels sounds to me like a recipe for some pretty exessive combustion chamber temps.
• #62 by QuickTD on 09 Jun, 2005 06:11
• Jake might be on to something with the head gasket leak. The combustion gasses may have temporarily displaced the coolant and caused the overheating, the end result is the same either way though. Pistons got too big and seized...
  
   I don't think the bore is all that bad on the #4 cylinder. First oversize pistons would easily clean that up. It would be difficult to install 1.9 pistons in a 1.6 due to the difference in pin diameters. 1.9 pistons are crazy expensive anyway.
  
   Back in my motorcycle wrenching days we would have used muriatic acid to dissolve the aluminum "deposits" off the bore, gave it a quick hone and installed a new piston and rings. Did it countless times. Performance 2 stroke engines were bad for this kind of damage. We used to joke that they were "gasoline cooled". A few seconds of lean mixture is all it takes to run up the temps and seize them...
• #63 by shox75 on 09 Jun, 2005 07:49
• Hey malone, since you live in BC, correct me if im wrong, parts shouldnt cost all that much for a 1.6td.
  When i did my rebuild it cost me $700 in parts and $about $700 for machining.
  $700 parts from VM Autohaus (http://www.vmautohaus.com/include):
  -.020" over piston and rings
  -crank bearings, intermediate shaft bearings
  -top end seal kit and bottom end seal kit
  -front gas engine mount
  -valve guides for head and some other things i cant exactly remember
  
  and machining for $700 was at dunrite performance in langley. $25 a hole boring, polishing crank, cam, intermediate shafts journals, plain deck, and rebuild head
  the guy there did an awesome job, and is one of the only shops i found close to me that had the right size boring bits for vw blocks at a low price.
  I remember Canada Engines quoted me $2000 for this job.
  
  anyway i know my parts list is not exactly complete and the prices are approximates, but VM will give you a quote, and they are the cheapest supplier of vw/audi OEM parts around, and so will dunrite.
  
  also since you didnt mension anything wrong with the head, the head was the majority of the machining cost. So you'd get away with it cheaper then me.  When i looked around for an engine i was in ur feet, either buy a used one or rebuid mine and get a new engine, so choice 2 ruled in this case.
• #64 by malone on 09 Jun, 2005 11:40
• Wow, nice observation Jake. As always, I find your posts informative and enjoyable to read.
  
  Thanks guys for the great info.
  
  I had a brand new ALH TDI intercooler sitting in the back of the Golf during the failure I was also thinking of getting a good FMIC instead.
  
  On the bright side, this problem will improve my awareness for the TDI project, which can be more expensive to fix.
  
  A 1.9L piston costs $40 CAD more than a 1.6TD oversized piston. It does add up a little when you count 3 more cylinders though. Should there be any concerns with cylinder wall strength after boring 3mm+ for 1.9L pistons? QuickTD, you're right about pin diameters... something to talk to the machinist about. Thanks
  
  Sabi: When did you get your engine rebuilt? e.g. this year? Did they put the block back together after the machining process for you (probably important to check tolerances), and was it included in the $700 cost you mentioned? Or did you reassemble the block yourself?
  
  I was leaning towards a used engine, but you're right.. new's nice.
  
  
  As for my 1.6L TD head, I didn't really check its condition because I have a 1.9L head coming.. or if I were to buy a used engine in good condition, it'll almost always come with a head attached.
  
  However, after looking at the rebuild cost which isn't too bad; if I can re-use my existing 1.6TD head I might go for a block rebuild. Then get the 1.9L head fully done another time, especially after selling the Jetta TD.
• #65 by shox75 on 09 Jun, 2005 11:58
• he checked al the tollerances for me. He had the head assembled ready to go.
  And the block partially. Only thing i had to do myself was install the pistons, which he would have done for me, however there was a problem with the getting the lower con rod bearings, so it was left to me. But that was easy. oh and ofcourse i did all the bottom end seals myself.
  So when I took it in to him the bottom end was not dissassembled, still had oil pan on, and ofcourse i took off the mounts and other exterior block parts.
  So if your question is did he measure everything, yes. That is what the cost was for!
  Only one confusing thing was he told me to use largest gasket size available which is the 3rd one to be on the safe side because he did not find measurments for the gasket thicknesses, but looking at my compression now, i could have used the second one.
• #66 by greggearhead on 09 Jun, 2005 12:28
• I am a relative newbie to Diesels, but in Gas VW stuff, you can't just swap a 1.8 piston for a 2.0 to get the bigger bore, because the strokes are totally different so the pin heights are way off.  I don't know if that is the same for the 1.6TD vs. 1.9 TD, but I would expect so.
• #67 by malone on 09 Jun, 2005 12:36
• I'll still go for 1.6TD overbore pistons if 1.9TD pistons are too much work to adapt.
  
  Sabi: Quick question; how long did it take him to work on your block? Just the block, not the head.
  
  Thanks,
  Mark
• #68 by shox75 on 09 Jun, 2005 16:11
• oh like 2/3 days if i recall right for both head and engine. Thats not including the first day on which he threw it in the hot tank for cleaning, pulled it apart, and inspected it to tell me what it needs. Not long at all if you have the parts ready for him. It was in the middle of winter, so maybe he wasnt that busy.
  
  ok so i dug up some stuff to be more accurate:
   
  Dun-Rite Performance
  6-8100 Capstan Way, Richmond (i donno why i said langley)
  Tel: 604-278-5199, can remember the guys name.
  
  so total price for all machining & head rebuild $768
  
  And the parts:
  pistons w/rings $80 each/$320 all
  main bearing set $44
  con rod bearing set $32
  engine block kit $55
  head gasket kit $58
  head gasket $32
  valve guide $3/$24 for all
  exhaust valves $10/$40 all
  timing belt $20
   total - $710 with taxes
  
  not a bad deal to me! Where are you getting your parts?
• #69 by 92A2VWJTD on 09 Jun, 2005 18:44
• Quote from: "QuickTD (from another post)"

  If you are trying to keep costs low, 1.9TD pistons are not the way to go. I haven't been able to find them for less than $250CDN each... The 1.9TD pistons won't bolt in either, the piston pins are 2mm larger than the 1.6 pins. You will need some custom machining on the connecting rods to make it work.

  
  
  Seems a bit more hassle than you prolly wanna deal with.
• #70 by Giles@PerformanceDiesel on 09 Jun, 2005 18:57
• hey
  
  having just water in and pushing the engine with more boost and no IC
  will i think have overheated the engine temp and then blow the head
  gasket.
  
  once all the water was burned and or leaked out (at 160 km/h)
  then the engine block would over heat and start to seize the pistons.
  
  pls do put in the IC right away. never...never.... never run your engine
  without at least 35-50% gylcol and rest water. redline water wetter is
  also a good idea, it improves the rad efficiency.
  
  Giles
• #71 by Zeitgeist on 09 Jun, 2005 21:25
• I'll concur with others who strongly suggest you add an IC or water injection BEFORE you turn up the fuel load or boost pressure.  Over in the Mercedes diesel world, we've seen some huge EGT/coolant temp differentials between IC and non IC engines, even when operating under stock fuel load settings.
  
  BTW:  I'm a longtime VW diesel guy, but have almost no experience with turboed VW's--what is the stock boost pressure range for the turbo IDI engines?  Our Mercedes OM603 engines rarely exceed 16 psi, even when the wastegate signal line is blocked.  I'm amazed at the boost pressures the VW engines can generate.
• #72 by shox75 on 09 Jun, 2005 23:52
• stock boost pressure is 9-12 psi, correct me if im wrong.
• #73 by malone on 10 Jun, 2005 08:48
• Guys, you can bet an intercooler will go in.
  
  

  Quote from: "shox75"

  so total price for all machining & head rebuild $768
  
  And the parts:
  pistons w/rings $80 each/$320 all
  main bearing set $44
  con rod bearing set $32
  engine block kit $55
  head gasket kit $58
  head gasket $32
  valve guide $3/$24 for all
  exhaust valves $10/$40 all
  timing belt $20
   total - $710 with taxes

  
  
  These are in CAD currency, correct? The prices look decent. Here's my first list (not complete):
  
  1) 1.6TD overbore pistons w/ rings, $110 each.
  2) main bearings $44
  3) lifters and valves - $10 ea/$160 all
  4) con rod bearing set $24
  5) head gasket kit $76
  (already have a main head gasket)
  
  Your price list looks better overall. Definitely not a bad deal! And thanks for the contact info
  
  935racer is helping by getting machining/parts quotes today.
• #74 by malone on 10 Jun, 2005 08:49
• My stock peak boost on both 1.6TDs (with Garrett T3s) was 9 to 10 PSI.