VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Gizmoman on February 26, 2014, 05:36:44 pm
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Figured I'd start a new thread as the previous one http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=34417.0 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=34417.0) ended up changing considerably over seven pages. Besides, the title is more relevant for those doing a search.
The new Cummins Holset HE200WE turbo I purchased through Alcaid http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=586 (http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=586) arrived today (actually 2 weeks earlier than predicted!). The K-14 just can't push enough air to keep up with the Giles IP and my goal is to keep the EGT temps below 1300F climbing the notorious grade out of East LA on the 15 towards Barstow. I believe it's nearly 6% for several miles. I'm hoping this will push the 4,000 lb+ van at 65 up that grade (I have a score to settle).
Here are some photos to drool over
Well packaged for the most part.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/g-TAQZ71Oja3dcn3-gmpf3FHS2OwK1Br7-R6hG3b9ms=w270-h202-p-no)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/KMc9J54RU9QuznzvSvMrdSFbqBTwDaWyFE2GWl308ZE=w270-h202-p-no)
Compared to the K-14
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-41iVEBhVIvE/Uw6Nj0TdfYI/AAAAAAAADEQ/ZGsb_hBVNog/w975-h731-no/DSC00898.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bjeaUUaDchs/Uw6NkvSlmOI/AAAAAAAADEY/wZNnyLhHPNU/w975-h731-no/DSC00897.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-u_qKCFsZX-0/Uw6NjM_vSQI/AAAAAAAADEI/e381os4ARDI/w975-h731-no/DSC00899.JPG)
Alcaid has been great through all of this decision making and has answered every question I threw at him.
Now the real work begins. I will have to make up a new drain line and connection. The oil feed line as well. I'ts a bit disappointing that the boost canister is hard mounted to the compressor housing as clocking is going to be a real PITA. Should have studied the photos better. Another obvious bit is a proper V-clamp and fitting for the compressor outlet.
I will also need to look into a new drain line. The fitting tig welded to the pan is a #8 and Alcaid recommends I go no smaller than #10 - Ugg.
As for the adapter to bolt this to my manifold - right now I am thinking I may need to make a short steel elbow (of some angle) with a 1/2" flange on each end so I can get this hunk clocked properly.
If anyone has installed one of these on an AAZ, please chime in.
I'll be working on it this weekend if the creek don't rise (not likely).
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Clocking the housing is cake...if you have a gigantic set of snap ring pliers. You have to take the snap ring off the cold side and remove the pin. Then when you reinstall the snap ring you can rotate it. Same thing with the exhaust side but it is much easier with the V band. Remove the v band and the locating pin in the housing, now it will rotate with no problems. At least on mine that is the way it was, 1 locating pin in each housing. The center section spins free of the 2 if you have it loose, so you can achieve many positions. Here is how mine looked from the wastegate standpoint.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1499906/Mk4%20TDI%204motion/IMG_0147.JPG)
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Thanks theman,
Sweet
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-qkCJJfiyRqA/Uw6m0VVvnII/AAAAAAAADFE/DpXOHOfzN50/w975-h731-no/DSC00900.JPG)
I'll bet HF has some big ones (snap ring pliers) for cheap.
I can understand that this will allow me to rotate the center section as needed. The problem will be rotating the compressor housing independently from the exhaust side housing as the boost pot is mounted on the compressor and the actuator rod to the exhaust dump valve needs to stay in line.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_WSfDjnoGhE/Uw6oWQZqtfI/AAAAAAAADFU/vk5WnaS22bI/w975-h731-no/DSC00903.JPG)
I'm pretty sure I need to have one housing rotated different (out of line) from the other to make things work and I don't know how I can do that without making a new mount for the boost pot somehow.
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For some reason I think that it is possible to do it, I cannot remember right now, but I know mine isn't pointed the same as it was stock. Once you rotate it, you may see quickly, but once the pins are out it should work for you.
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For some reason I think that it is possible to do it, I cannot remember right now, but I know mine isn't pointed the same as it was stock. Once you rotate it, you may see quickly, but once the pins are out it should work for you.
I'll give it a shot but the rod orientation is pretty specific and the can is going to move if the compressor housing needs to rotate. - and it will because right now it's pointed directly at the head with no room for an elbow. You mounted yours though and our engines aren't that different so I must be missing something.
Probably have to make snap-ring pliers to get that huge bugger out. The only one's I found that would be up to the task are quite spendy.
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you can remove the can from the cold side and rotate to where you need the exhaust to be.
then just use some thick steel and make a piece bolting to the original place and bolt the can to that piece.
it looks that the mounting on the charger are stong enough to do that
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you can remove the can from the cold side and rotate to where you need the exhaust to be.
then just use some thick steel and make a piece bolting to the original place and bolt the can to that piece.
it looks that the mounting on the charger are stong enough to do that
I won't know till I actually get a chance to dry-fit it but it looks as though the mount on the compressor housing is in the way as well. If I need to cut it off, I will do so and come up with a different mount entirely.
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Super snap-ring pliers - Took a cheap set of needle nose pliers and ground the tips down. Hmm, not enough leverage to squeeze the huge snap-ring closed enough. Add cheaters - perfect. The snap ring was easy to get to once I removed the exhaust side.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ROXsQJ6HNhs/Uw_xMwggJ0I/AAAAAAAADGE/bNvhdPSks04/w1270-h685-no/DSC00904.JPG)
Removed the pins as theman suggested and everything now rotates where it will need to be.
Here is a photo of a rough mock up ( hex nuts represent the spacer plate I will need to make)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_iH117GtS5Q/Uw_xQZnf2SI/AAAAAAAADF8/wiOmDT0PQCg/w975-h731-no/DSC00905.JPG)
As you can see in the above image, the aluminum bracket for the pot is nearly 180 degrees from the gate crank :(
Making a new bracket for the pot wont be a big deal but if my rough assembly is correct, the rod from the pot goes directly over the drain port when its clocked at 6:00 :( :(
We'll see how it works out once mounted on the engine.
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The other option is to build your own exhaust mani from tubes...
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The other option is to build your own exhaust mani from tubes...
Yeah, that's what Alkaid suggested via email.
I took tomorrow off so I'll do a quick check on the engine if it isn't pouring rain (although I really hope it is - direr than a popcorn fart here).
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Hi Jim, regarding downpipe you need to make a flange like in the CAD drawing I sent you, some 3" tubing and a 3" v-band set end you are good to go to make something like this:
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/Alcaid/Jetta/HE211W3in.jpg)
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/Alcaid/Jetta/E61D9844-A162-4ED0-BDFF-6FBAF5B2C226-25316-0000068EE429D9A3.jpg)
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/Alcaid/Jetta/HE211W3intoV-band.jpg)
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Regarding the compressor outlet, I have not yet found the correct v-band clamp as the ones I have ordered up until now have been too big :'(
I have one of these elbows and it fits the HE200 series turbochargers (90° transition to 2.5") so could get you some measurements to make your own straight adapter in a lathe. No need to go bigger than 2". But still needs a v-band clamp and an o-ring but the latter is easy to solve.
(http://svdavto.ru/d/277409/d/sam_0755_1.jpg)
Easiest thing to do is to just grind down the v-band flange on the compressor outlet somewhat and clamp on a silicone hose.
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SPD Exhaust has the exact same v-band flange OD on their 1.5" v-bands that there is on these small Holsets (2.24"): http://www.spdexhaust.com/VBK_B.html#
Remember that there needs to be an o-ring to seal a v-band on the air side of things. On exhaust heating the flanges will make them seal.
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This one might do the job: http://www.ebay.com/itm/V-Band-Clamp-High-Temp-Stainless-Steel-1-5-Aviation-Military-Grade-Manifold-/151219203086?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23355dec0e
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Wealth of info Alcaid - thank you very much!
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When I went through this the 1.5 was too small for mine. What is needed is something I haven't found 1.75" v band stuff.
This DOESN'T fit, but to get an idea of how to put the Vband to the hot side, I built something like it that the holes lined up. The one hole is inside the exhaust area :D
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TD04-H-Disco-Potato-GT28RS-GT2860RS-Turbo-Flange-3-Inch-Downpipe-Vband-Garrett/141164397008?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222008%26algo%3DSIC.MOTORS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D19852%26meid%3D5156125123339455325%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D8938%26rk%3D0%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D140791268625
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The HE221W 5cm you have do have another downpipe flange than this HE200WG 5cm.
V-band flanges you tried where from silicone intakes? They have different dimensions on their v-band connections compared to the company I linked to earlier. The only certain thing about a v-band connection is the tube dimension it is meant to be welded to. How they make the flange and clamps vary by who's making them
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When I went through this the 1.5 was too small for mine. What is needed is something I haven't found 1.75" v band stuff.
This DOESN'T fit, but to get an idea of how to put the Vband to the hot side, I built something like it that the holes lined up. The one hole is inside the exhaust area :D
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TD04-H-Disco-Potato-GT28RS-GT2860RS-Turbo-Flange-3-Inch-Downpipe-Vband-Garrett/141164397008?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222008%26algo%3DSIC.MOTORS%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D19852%26meid%3D5156125123339455325%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D8938%26rk%3D0%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D140791268625
Thanks for the input.
Is a V-band connection required? I was simply going to weld a plate to a 2-1/2" 180* bend - possibly the same one that came off the K14. My exhaust is quite short and is mounted to the engine entirely. The elbow itself is pretty short and connects to a glass-pack/muffler via a wide band clamp with two bolts that squeeze it tightly.
Here's a shot of the 180 attached to the K-14
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6r1dORfdKRY/Uvl0ZAta23I/AAAAAAAADAU/_dM8wqyhC0Q/w975-h731-no/DSC00876.JPG)
And the rest of it
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ulNP_MxaLMc/Uvl5a1hT7dI/AAAAAAAADAw/NqyCjVCngAM/w975-h731-no/DSC00881.JPG)
Here's the Holset temporarily mounted - nice short run to the IC but that's about the only good news.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-O3bQ_1iHcRI/UxCfWU9WfrI/AAAAAAAADGw/btbIVFFMsBA/w975-h731-no/DSC00909.JPG)
The cast tab for the pot mount will definitely interfere with the intake so it's going to get shaved off and a new mount made. I'd like to incorporate it into the spacer plate I need to build between the exhaust manifold and turbo but fear the heat translating through the steel could cook the seals in the pot.
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v-band is not needed but it is oh so nice to have if you ever need to take exhaust off and on again a few times, no need to fiddle with small nuts and washers in tight spots ;)
HX30W, HX35W, HX40W and even bigger all have wastegate actuators directly bolted onto the turbine housings, use stainless for a bracket as it doesn't conduct heat as good as mild steel
HX30W (turbine housing mounted actuator) vs. HE221W (compressor housing mounted actuator):
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/Alcaid/null_zps83f30bfc.jpg)
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You don't need a V band on the exhaust, but it makes it so nice to line it all up and take on and off. I can go out to the car right now in 13f weather with my 13mm gear wrench and take the exhaust off in about 60 seconds, start to finish out of car and in hand. Best thing I did while making the downpipe was the 2 vband connections.
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You don't need a V band on the exhaust, but it makes it so nice to line it all up and take on and off. I can go out to the car right now in 13f weather with my 13mm gear wrench and take the exhaust off in about 60 seconds, start to finish out of car and in hand. Best thing I did while making the downpipe was the 2 vband connections.
Sounds good but all the V-band adapters and clamps I find don't have enough detailed dimensions for me to shell out the bucks.
Hopefully, I won't be taking this off too many times once I get all the details done.
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You don't need a V band on the exhaust, but it makes it so nice to line it all up and take on and off. I can go out to the car right now in 13f weather with my 13mm gear wrench and take the exhaust off in about 60 seconds, start to finish out of car and in hand. Best thing I did while making the downpipe was the 2 vband connections.
Sounds good but all the V-band adapters and clamps I find don't have enough detailed dimensions for me to shell out the bucks.
Hopefully, I won't be taking this off too many times once I get all the details done.
I guess if you ever take it off you could add it then. I ran 3" turbo back. For you to do the same you would probably only need 1 v band assembly 3" or whatever diameter your pipe is. Weld it to your output flange and weld the other on your downpipe or exhaust. Done.
Here is a link to a cheap 3" one on ebay, if you ever decide to use this route.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-5-3-and-4-V-Band-Clamps-with-Flanges-NEW-CNC-Stainless-Steel-Exhaust-Turbo-/200934012277?pt=Apparel_Merchandise&var=&hash=item2ec899b575&vxp=mtr
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what about letting it clocked how it comes and then flipping it so the compressor is on the otherside?
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Here is a link to a cheap 3" one on ebay, if you ever decide to use this route.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-5-3-and-4-V-Band-Clamps-with-Flanges-NEW-CNC-Stainless-Steel-Exhaust-Turbo-/200934012277?pt=Apparel_Merchandise&var=&hash=item2ec899b575&vxp=mtr
Thanks for the link - good price. I ordered the 2-1/2" but will possibly save it for another time. If the rest of the weekend is productive, I should almost have this done by Sunday afternoon.
what about letting it clocked how it comes and then flipping it so the compressor is on the otherside?
I suppose I could try it but I think it would actually end up taking more work.
Here's the new adapter Sorry bout the blurr.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-iZ-LhpaNaWw/UxE3-TVbQdI/AAAAAAAADHk/3Zh_yJ9oSDk/w975-h731-no/DSC00914.JPG)
It mounts using two 8 mm SHCS into the original tapped holes on the turbo flange.
I slightly relocated the other two 8 mm holes (using the mill with a boring head) in the flange to line up with the manifold, re-bored them, and tapped them for 10 mm. The plate is made to let these two bolts go straight through and into the new threads on the turbo.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fpSlA_oxpLc/UxE3_vBz-YI/AAAAAAAADHs/QQW3l1snRXs/w975-h731-no/DSC00913.JPG)
Then I drilled and tapped the plate for the two 10 mm bolts (above) which are closer together.
It was a bit confusing getting it all worked out but it ended up working just dandy.
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Just for excercise, tap that for a drive pressure sensor....
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Just for excercise, tap that for a drive pressure sensor....
My dash is already so crowded with gauges to watch - I hardly have time to text!
I may tap it for a pot mount though if I can't figure out a way to line everything up properly.
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Here's an update on my progress
Exhaust plate:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-XHVDE5ecBLU/UxNpLGQNG9I/AAAAAAAADJ8/MKSgmgwzRSY/w975-h731-no/DSC00917.JPG)
Fit check
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-aTE97Y4TiX0/UxNpJjtdyWI/AAAAAAAADJs/ZnVJTmSbaHM/w975-h731-no/DSC00919.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-1XWOs7L8eVg/UxNpJOzzjEI/AAAAAAAADJk/9YAzd6a-y0E/w975-h731-no/DSC00920.JPG)
Steel fab for gate clearance
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jlnpl0mPJKU/UxNpGBjuCTI/AAAAAAAADI8/goC4sfutJ6c/w975-h731-no/DSC00925.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-10zEa_83DIY/UxNpFVXhsOI/AAAAAAAADI0/dU_gU_frdVQ/w975-h731-no/DSC00926.JPG)
Welded on the 180 after several more fit checks
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-iBrFa-kH_1c/UxNpCKUYNCI/AAAAAAAADIU/wb1qu7QbImg/w975-h731-no/DSC00930.JPG)
Blended the ID for good flow
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NIZOYQ1mJ-Y/UxNpC_qV_WI/AAAAAAAADIY/Vwjax-yAMC0/w975-h731-no/DSC00929.JPG)
I wish I could have tig-welded it all up but the 180 was too rusty (should have bought a new one but oh well, I'm done with this bit.
In case anyone is wondering, that port on the 180 is for an O2 sensor. My EGT port is in the manifold where it belongs. Also, that tab on the plate is for a possible support bracket I will install off the motor mount arm (or the block) to assist in supporting all this weight. My k-14 came loose twice and it's really annoying.
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-10zEa_83DIY/UxNpFVXhsOI/AAAAAAAADI0/dU_gU_frdVQ/w975-h731-no/DSC00926.JPG)
This is where the V band could go if you want next time. That makes it so easy to add another 180 section whenever this rusts off. You aren't in Ohio so you might not have to worry about that much.
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Man I wish I had the cash Id have you make me a downpipe flange and an adapter plate!
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Man I wish I had the cash Id have you make me a downpipe flange and an adapter plate!
Besides no time, the tough part would be the fit-up which needs the car, and the turbo mounted. Took about five crawls under the van to get it right. The bend just slips between the motor mount support bar and the frame - neither of which move with the motor. It took a few tries to get it centered. As I was too lazy to drag the welder out and re-connect everything, I just eye-balled it (probably took longer than moving the welder would have).
As it was, this took every bit of two days.
Next chore will be figuring out hoe to make/mount the new bracket for the boost pot.
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(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-10zEa_83DIY/UxNpFVXhsOI/AAAAAAAADI0/dU_gU_frdVQ/w975-h731-no/DSC00926.JPG)
This is where the V band could go if you want next time. That makes it so easy to add another 180 section whenever this rusts off. You aren't in Ohio so you might not have to worry about that much.
Yeah, the one I ordered will probably arrive tomorrow ;)
The 180 had one weak spot which I patched with some 10 Ga. Stainless would be the way to go next time (although I hope to never take it off once it's running again).
My wife keeps asking when the camping part starts ;D.
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Man I wish I had the cash Id have you make me a downpipe flange and an adapter plate!
Besides no time, the tough part would be the fit-up which needs the car, and the turbo mounted. Took about five crawls under the van to get it right. The bend just slips between the motor mount support bar and the frame - neither of which move with the motor. It took a few tries to get it centered. As I was too lazy to drag the welder out and re-connect everything, I just eye-balled it (probably took longer than moving the welder would have).
As it was, this took every bit of two days.
Next chore will be figuring out hoe to make/mount the new bracket for the boost pot.
I had about 20 hours total in the dp I made. I was in and out a ton.
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I had about 20 hours total in the dp I made. I was in and out a ton.
Well, now that the "huge ::)" rain storms are over and we are done with rain for another year, crawling under there a few hundred more times won't be too bad.
Sorry that we didn't warm this storm up a bit for you guys - brutal.
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Sorry that we didn't warm this storm up a bit for you guys - brutal.
Yes we have about 1inch of ice on the roads here in Kentuckiana... and Im supposed to fly out in the morning...
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something good happened with that storm, they were calling for 12-18" of snow for here in pa, last minute they changed the prediction to 4-6 and we ended up only getting about an inch. yay.
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Well, I didn't get as far as I'd hoped but thought I'd update this thread.
As I had suspected, the boost pot rod went directly through the center of the oil drain port. I did slightly tweak the oil tube to get everything to clear but generally, the oil should now leave the turbo with no restrictions. On my K-14 I used a banjo fitting on the drain and I think this contributed to my oil in the compressor because it just couldn't drain fast enough. A long time ago libby mentioned not using a banjo bolt on the drain - now I know why.
Here is a shot of the rod in it's full extended position (I have 40 psi on the pot) The rod is obviously not adjustable anymore but I took careful dimensions before I disassembled everything. I suppose I could have used a coupling nut on the straight section of the rod but this is pretty kludgy already. The center of the crank pin (EDIT - from the face of the boost pot) is the same as it was, with plenty of preload on the gate. I even machined a split spacer sleeve to hold the rod extended slightly for easy assembly.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-svOTX7w39SA/UxzjmDCpfmI/AAAAAAAADKo/5jnzgO6pjHk/w975-h731-no/DSC00998.JPG)
Another showing the machined aluminum bracket I mounted to the compressor. I was able to reposition the alignment pin hole for the compressor just to make sure it will never spin.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-JjcP6I4y5qI/UxzjkLseOQI/AAAAAAAADKQ/f4dsauPTzIk/w975-h731-no/DSC01001.JPG)
Here is the compressor housing showing the new pin location. I also machined down the v-band flange to accept a simple 1-1/2" silicone hose and band clamp. I have a brand new silicone 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 90 and it fits perfectly.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NyDO_WR9LZI/UxzjrCRHXiI/AAAAAAAADLs/q720v4M3Pxw/w975-h731-no/DSC00990.JPG)
The oil port is a 10 X 1.25 and my k-14 used a 12mm banjo fitting. i'd like to keep the oil line I have so I'm making a custom Banjo bolt with a 12 mm shoulder and a 10 mm thread.. Had a good start on it this afternoon till I realized I had one of the levers on the lathe in the wrong notch and cut some odd-ball thread pitch >:(. Got it figured out now but I'm done for the day.
This may be a silly question but what kind of boost should I expect from this turbo if I don't install my DIY boost controller? I built the controller to raise the boost on the K14 from it's stock 8-10 PSI to 15-16 psi and it worked fine.
I plan on keeping this in the 20-22 psi range so I don't hurt the engine but the pot doesn't even begin to move till it hits 30 psi (could be my cheap pressure regulator). Maybe I don't know how it's supposed to work but as it is now, it looks like it could easily hit 40. What am I not getting here?
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Drive pressure on the WG is a possible factor.
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Drive pressure on the WG is a possible factor.
Not sure what that means - are you saying that the pressure from the exhaust generates "additional" pressure and that it will assist in dumping the gate sooner than my rube goldberg set-up?
If so, is there any way to simulate that before I install it on the engine?
I guess my biggest concern is how to limit boost to 20 psi or so.
Somehow I get the feeling it's very simple and I'm over-thinking things (again).
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Wastegates do blow open at a a certain point, that is why the actuator is preloaded.
Exhaust Manifold Pressure AKA Drive Pressure is expressed as 'Pressure Ratio' in relation to boost PSI in turbo maps.
Ole school Turbos typically poop out around 2:1, but new stuff like this sometimes is rated for 4:1, and a lot of CR stuff peaks around 30 PSI... though PR is much closer to 1:1 in the efficiency range.
This might give you a general idea
(http://www.myholsetturbo.com/images/holset_compressor_map.jpg)
and there are more details here; http://www.myholsetturbo.com/modelinfo.html
I'll not be surprised if you have to keep your foot out of it,or slack the WG actuator spring a little
You could also defuel till you don't make more than 20, but that might be a bit disappointing.
Also it is possible to add an external gate.
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looks awesome, great work on everything. it sucks that the k14 may have been fine though. I am thinking the only way to adjust boost would be to adjust pretension/rod length, which now i guess u have to either mill down the mount or stack washers between it and the compressor housing.
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I forget what Alcaid told me on the opening of the wastegate. For some reason I think that 30 number is accurate. This is all I have in my messages and doesn't say much...
copied from Alcaid.
Only preload on the wastegate is adjustable (putting more preload on it gives more resistance to being opened by exhaust pressure and vice versa). Run a ball and spring boost controller as you normally would do and don't touch the wastegate adjustment for now.
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I forget what Alcaid told me on the opening of the wastegate. For some reason I think that 30 number is accurate. This is all I have in my messages and doesn't say much...
copied from Alcaid.
Only preload on the wastegate is adjustable (putting more preload on it gives more resistance to being opened by exhaust pressure and vice versa). Run a ball and spring boost controller as you normally would do and don't touch the wastegate adjustment for now.
only thing is, if the can won't open till 30-40psi then the ball and spring won't do anything, but i'd wait till its on the car to worry about it too
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Thanks for the detailed explanation 745 turbogreasel.
I may be wishing I had some adjustability on that actuator rod afterall. If I understand correctly, I shouldn't need a boost controller at all. If I were to adjust the rod (change the preload) I should be able to "tune" it to dump at 20 psi.
Let me know if I'm missing something.
Thanks for the compliments RabbitJockey. It was scary stuff hacking off the cast mount from the compressor and drilling and tapping two holes between the edge of the housing and the snap ring groove. I like your idea of adding washers under the pot. The studs are barely long enough as it is so I may need to mill a bit off the tabs as you mentioned.
The adjuster that came with it was pretty slick and I think I can weld the bit I cut off into the straight section of the "U" bend.
Here's a shot of my new drain pipe. I actually had this in a box-o-bits left over from a turbocharged suby swap I did into a 72 bus many years ago. I cut a groove in the face and inserted an O-ring. Hopefully it can live with the heat.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-OJ8HrK86wEQ/UxzjtRyTSmI/AAAAAAAADMM/U88Xbk_o5mU/w975-h731-no/DSC00986.JPG)
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I missed your informative post theman - thanks. It seems having the rod adjustable is the ticket. Besides, those welds look terrible and this would give me an opportunity to tidy them up a bit. I can't see as good as I used to, that's for sure.
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I think you want to work on the spring rate more than the rod length. Either adding some external spring to your linkage, cutting open & altering the boost can, or using a boost can off something else.
Since the WG opens gradually, even at lower settings, you MBC will help spool, as the WG instead of being 10% open at 5 PSI (#s straight pulled out of my butt), it will see no signal till 9 PSI(or wherever you set it) then open abruptly when needed.
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I think you want to work on the spring rate more than the rod length. Either adding some external spring to your linkage, cutting open & altering the boost can, or using a boost can off something else.
Since the WG opens gradually, even at lower settings, you MBC will help spool, as the WG instead of being 10% open at 5 PSI (#s straight pulled out of my butt), it will see no signal till 9 PSI(or wherever you set it) then open abruptly when needed.
Wouldn't changing the length of the rod (making it adjustable - again) essentially do the same thing? As the spring has a "rate", it gets stiffer the more it is compressed therefore making it harder to open (or increasing boost pressure required to open it).
It seems to me that a MBC is just another spring. I admit though, it is definitely easier to adjust.
I suppose the ideal would be to use the pot to resist the exhaust pressure only, then when the boost pressure went to 20 psi, the MBC would push the valve open and add pressure to the pot opening the valve.
As was suggested, I need to get this on a running engine before I worry too much about it. However, making the rod adjustable is pretty simple while it's on the bench.
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Wouldn't changing the length of the rod (making it adjustable - again) essentially do the same thing? As the spring has a "rate", it gets stiffer the more it is compressed therefore making it harder to open (or increasing boost pressure required to open it).
It seems to me that a MBC is just another spring. I admit though, it is definitely easier to adjust.
I suppose the ideal would be to use the pot to resist the exhaust pressure only, then when the boost pressure went to 20 psi, the MBC would push the valve open and add pressure to the pot opening the valve.
As was suggested, I need to get this on a running engine before I worry too much about it. However, making the rod adjustable is pretty simple while it's on the bench.
Changing the rod is good to adjust against it blowing open, or a couple PSI change, then the arm is just in the wrong place.
Your MBC may be a spring... mine is an adjustable spring loaded pressure relief valve as sold by Graingers.
With it set below factory boost setting, I reach full boost about 500 RPM earlier, but I do get more PSI than I need at cruise, somewhat more EGT and less MPG. I imagine a 2 stage setup would be better on a daily.
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Wouldn't changing the length of the rod (making it adjustable - again) essentially do the same thing? As the spring has a "rate", it gets stiffer the more it is compressed therefore making it harder to open (or increasing boost pressure required to open it).
It seems to me that a MBC is just another spring. I admit though, it is definitely easier to adjust.
I suppose the ideal would be to use the pot to resist the exhaust pressure only, then when the boost pressure went to 20 psi, the MBC would push the valve open and add pressure to the pot opening the valve.
As was suggested, I need to get this on a running engine before I worry too much about it. However, making the rod adjustable is pretty simple while it's on the bench.
Changing the rod is good to adjust against it blowing open, or a couple PSI change, then the arm is just in the wrong place.
Your MBC may be a spring... mine is an adjustable spring loaded pressure relief valve as sold by Graingers.
With it set below factory boost setting, I reach full boost about 500 RPM earlier, but I do get more PSI than I need at cruise, somewhat more EGT and less MPG. I imagine a 2 stage setup would be better on a daily.
My MBC is a ball and spring and doesn't vent - just sends air to the gate when the set pressure is reached. On my k-14, I had adjusted it to open at 15-16 psi and it seemed to work just fine. I suppose I could add a slightly stiffer spring (or stretch out the one that's in it now) and get it to go to 20.
What kind of turbo are you running?
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A stock 1983 vintage T3 on a 2.4 6 cyl.
My MBC is the same as yours. 15-16 is probably fine, the last few PSI happen a lot faster than the first 5 or 10
I wonder if your actuator bolts up the same as a Dodge WH1c or HX35?
Those range from 17-23 pretty much based on how old the truck is, and you should be able to find someone who put on an aftermarket can ~$160.
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Trying to move this project along, I am futzing with it after work instead of weekends only (daylight savings probably has something to do with it).
Here are some shots of the custom banjo bolt and aluminum sealing washers - I even made two spares. This will allow me to use the existing oil feed line that went to the K-14. The K-14 threads are 12 mm, the Holset is 10 X 1.25. The original oil feed line banjo body is 12 mm. All the holes in the bolt match the original that fed the K-14.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-KXtK2f2v59M/Ux_A7y_WMlI/AAAAAAAADOo/XaGZlpJh5CA/w975-h731-no/DSC01002.JPG)
Here's the bolt and seal rings. It is black (except where I polished the journal) because I oil tempered it. Now it's strong enough to put some torque to it without fear of it snapping.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ztKxwANIYLY/Ux_A6iHAebI/AAAAAAAADOc/1XJ5N3FQn68/w975-h731-no/DSC01003.JPG)
Here it is installed on the new Holset.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UjVaW2uhNZM/Ux_A5Vg1lxI/AAAAAAAADOQ/1vlU5D-rMCs/w975-h731-no/DSC01005.JPG)
Now all I need to do is work out a new drain line. The previous one was a #8 JIC and I need to bump it up to #10 as suggested by Alcaid. I may cap off the tigged-in one to the pan (#8 as well) and make a fitting for the original drain location on the side of the block (if there's enough elevation).
Am I proud of it? Darn tootin!
Tomorrow I will re-do the boost pot rod so I can adjust it again ;)
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Haven't seen your updates since just now, great progress :)
This specific wastegate actuator is used in 27-29psi setups, depending on preload. Boost pressure will NOT be this high as exhaust pressure will also try to push the wastegate flapper open and at specified pressure the wastegate flapper is open by 0.50-1.04mm and there is lots of turbine bypass happening at even this low lift. Don't remember exactly what they do stock as we always hook up a boost controller and run at least 30psi from these :P
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Thanks for the info Alcaid.
I went back and inserted the adjustable portion into the rod. Too ugly to post ;D but it works.
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Function before fashion ;)
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Alcaid can chime in but on my turbo the return said it should be something like .55" which is in between 8 and 10 JIC as 8 is .5...being that it already has a weird drain angle you probably want it draining as good as can be, but maybe an 8 would work for you?
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Alcaid can chime in but on my turbo the return said it should be something like .55" which is in between 8 and 10 JIC as 8 is .5...being that it already has a weird drain angle you probably want it draining as good as can be, but maybe an 8 would work for you?
It's a tough call for sure. After getting oil past the K-14 and into my IC, I'm a bit gun-shy. At lest my Laminova intake drained any oil while it was running - the Frozen Boost IC would become a big oil filled box over time - nasty!
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.55"/14mm is correct, we have good results with AN10 oil drains, never dared going for AN8, just measure the ID through the actual connectors, restrictive! :(
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You said your MBC doesn't went? I hope there is a small hole somewhere between MBC and boost can so pressure can leak off? Otherwise you would open the wastegate once and it will stay open since pressure is trapped! :o
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You said your MBC doesn't went? I hope there is a small hole somewhere between MBC and boost can so pressure can leak off? Otherwise you would open the wastegate once and it will stay open since pressure is trapped! :o
It is a ball and spring, it vents, but not unless it is open. It would be better maybe to say it doesn't bleed pressure all the time like other types.
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?? the ones i have seen all only bleed between the can and the boost controller, so they can only bleed when the wastegate is open, and its such a tiny hole it wouldn't matter anyway. although i have seen people use some weird *** to control boost haha.
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Ball and spring type controllers work great! (NXS boost controllers on ebay etc.) but if there isn't a pinhole to bleed pressure between ball/ballseat and boost can somewhere (normally a smole hole drilled in the MBC) the pressure will be trapped between the seated ball and the boost can and wastegate will stay open. Just something to note for those who make their own MBC.
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You said your MBC doesn't went? I hope there is a small hole somewhere between MBC and boost can so pressure can leak off? Otherwise you would open the wastegate once and it will stay open since pressure is trapped! :o
You do make a good point but there's no vent on my DIYMBC - worked fine on the K-14. The boost pressure increased/decreased dead-on with my right foot when I was above 2K, and stopped climbing around 15-16 psi which is where I had it set. Keep in mind, it's a simple ball and spring seating against the surface of a drill-seat
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mmOPEOOCXms/Uan77h8UNgI/AAAAAAAAByA/vXT7IhlXp6M/w975-h731-no/DSC00497.JPG)
Possibly the air leaked out between the jam nut at the adjustment screw or it didn't seal perfectly.
(EDIT) Also, not shown in the photo is a "T" in the pressure line that goes up to the IP. Possibly it vents that way.
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Some of the integrated ones bleed air by the valve for cooling.
I dented my ball seat a tiny bit, and it was enough.
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It would vent to the IP if it is what is controlling your LDA. The LDA has a vent to atmosphere, as long as it isn't plugged or something
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It would vent to the IP if it is what is controlling your LDA. The LDA has a vent to atmosphere, as long as it isn't plugged or something
Thanks theman - that splains it
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Pretty sure that LDA vent is on the other side of the diaphragm, just so the LDA is free to move....Some of them even have a sealed can on the atmospheric vent side as part of some altitude compensation scheme.
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Ball and spring type controllers work great! (NXS boost controllers on ebay etc.) but if there isn't a pinhole to bleed pressure between ball/ballseat and boost can somewhere (normally a smole hole drilled in the MBC) the pressure will be trapped between the seated ball and the boost can and wastegate will stay open. Just something to note for those who make their own MBC.
Right, thus the use of a reverse biased check valve that only opens when pressure is greater on the side of the wastegate actuator.
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How about a light ball and spring valve going the other way in parallel? It would not let air by while building or under boost (since pressures would be either against the ball or even on both sides so the ball wouldn't move anyway), but would let all the air back when letting off due to its light spring. That way we would not have to bleed boost control air to atmosphere; a true closed system!
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I believe my MBC works because the ball does not seal perfectly.
The air fills the can and if the ball were perfectly sealed against the seat it would never retract. I just proved it by hooking up quality blow-nozzle to the boost can and when I pressurize it, it stays extended even when I let off on the lever and disconnect it from the air hose. As soon as I touch the lever on the blow nozzle, the rod retracts.
I just tested my MBC and no matter how tight I make the spring by turning in the adjustment screw, it leaks a teeny tiny amount.
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How about a light ball and spring valve going the other way in parallel? It would not let air by while building or under boost (since pressures would be either against the ball or even on both sides so the ball wouldn't move anyway), but would let all the air back when letting off due to its light spring. That way we would not have to bleed boost control air to atmosphere; a true closed system!
You've basically described a check valve?
The plumbing becomes complex but what i am referring to is a 1 or 2 psi cracking pressure check valve oriented opposite the MBC and connected to the same lines. Whenever the pressure on the compressor side is lower than the pressure on the WGA side, it would vent back to the compressor side.
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The morning starts with resolving a possible exhaust flow issue.
Here is a shot of the adapter plate which matches to output port on the exhaust manifold.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-gy8KXjagkSc/UyRuCQYHwDI/AAAAAAAADPI/U4Px27Y62GM/w548-h731-no/DSC01007.JPG)
Now the turbo will get every bit of exhaust flow possible.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-KbI6sRmVum4/UyRuBkPwhfI/AAAAAAAADPA/VVY17wSfUVA/w975-h731-no/DSC01008.JPG)
Time to go mount it on the engine and start figuring out the WAIC mount, water and air plumbing.
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Pretty sure that LDA vent is on the other side of the diaphragm, just so the LDA is free to move....Some of them even have a sealed can on the atmospheric vent side as part of some altitude compensation scheme.
Correct. It can not bleed through the LDA, but it could force the boost pin down, possibly enough to close the wastegate. This would make for smoke and high EGTs when off boost though since the pump thinks it is seeing boost.
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Pretty sure that LDA vent is on the other side of the diaphragm, just so the LDA is free to move....Some of them even have a sealed can on the atmospheric vent side as part of some altitude compensation scheme.
Correct. It can not bleed through the LDA, but it could force the boost pin down, possibly enough to close the wastegate. This would make for smoke and high EGTs when off boost though since the pump thinks it is seeing boost.
So, should I drill a tiny pin-hole in my MBC? It bugged me that it wasn't seating so I took it apart and found a small piece of something on the seat which I blew out with air. Now it seats (and seals). I'm having to re-do it anyway as the hose barbs need to be larger to accommodate the barbs on the Holset.
On another note, I had noticed this oil stain under the engine several weeks ago and cleaned it up - figuring it was from my disconnected oil feed line. It was back again and was coming from the aluminum fitting the PO had welded to the pan - a tiny crack had developed.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hBn99ceQhQg/UyWmhur6cyI/AAAAAAAADQM/jRuX9KCMHKg/w975-h731-no/DSC01011.JPG)
Here is the fitting - a tiny crack at the weld
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-CQRdCvZmGGA/UyWmgLnPguI/AAAAAAAADQA/GnqWiaBCJTE/w975-h731-no/DSC01012.JPG)
I took it off and found that the hole in the pan was way too small for a drain line - even for the K-14. No wonder I was getting oil in my charge air!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Y1MDPOtbOxs/UyWmfvTOQDI/AAAAAAAADP4/Ok_3HHyIL-Q/w975-h731-no/DSC01013.JPG)
I drilled and tapped it for 1/8" NPT and inserted a brass plug smeared with red Loctite (that's how small it was).
The three new holes to the right are for the new feed line fitting
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bjP0LhzAsoc/UyWmenTDfGI/AAAAAAAADPw/aL-Zw3FbK54/w975-h731-no/DSC01014.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Gier2fEJ14s/UyWmc7WOQ2I/AAAAAAAADPo/BcoxlDvfwWY/w975-h731-no/DSC01015.JPG)
I will use red-loctite on the two attachment bolts as well. I wish I could have removed the pan for this mod but I can't get to the screws at the transmission without pulling the engine (not gonna happen). I did remove the oil filler tube on the end of the pan and used a small vacuum tube attached to my shop vac to get out the aluminum shavings. Actually there wasn't much to vacuum out - one of the benefits of working upside down - most of the shavings fell into my eyes ;).
The new drain hose is 5/8" ID - Gates automatic transmission hose, single braid. FWIW, the previous #8 fittings had an ID of .38" - too small for a turbo drain line.
Anyhoo, let me know your thoughts on the air bleed for the MBC and thanks for clarifying that the LDA won't vent this pressure.
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Ball and spring type controllers work great! (NXS boost controllers on ebay etc.) but if there isn't a pinhole to bleed pressure between ball/ballseat and boost can somewhere (normally a smole hole drilled in the MBC) the pressure will be trapped between the seated ball and the boost can and wastegate will stay open. Just something to note for those who make their own MBC.
Right, thus the use of a reverse biased check valve that only opens when pressure is greater on the side of the wastegate actuator.
Just so I could get my head around the concept, I made this diagram. No doubt it would work perfectly.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dU95lM8etF4/UyW8wMvaO1I/AAAAAAAADQg/qNpd4G5H5f8/w617-h641-no/MBC+W_BLEED.JPG)
It would be a bit of work though and I do think a tiny bleed hole would perform the same function (and take a lot less time). However, I don't know how many CFM the boost hose can transfer at boost pressure but the hole would need to be small enough to not bleed much of it, or it wouldn't move the pot diaphragm.
A quick calc using an online flow calculator says that at 20 psi a 1/16" diameter hole will bleed .66 CFM of 72 degree air. A 3/16" orifice (my hose diameter) will flow 5.96 CFM.
The orifice is dumping 11% of the pressure so if I adjust the MBC to 21.7 psi, it will send 20 psi to the pot (while bleeding off 11% through the orifice).
Therefore, as my MBC can be adjusted to easily hold even 60 psi, I think a small bleed hole will work just fine unless I'm missing something.
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i would just drill a hole, u can go much smaller than 1/16", it will only be leaking at full boost.
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My MBC has a very tiny bleed hole on the wastegate can side and works fantastic. I fear you may be over thinking this. :-)
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
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My MBC has a very tiny bleed hole on the wastegate can side and works fantastic. I fear you may be over thinking this. :-)
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
Yea, I usually think about it till I get it wrong ;D.
I was amazed at how the conversation about bleeding the air took off but I had some time to kill this morning over coffee (don't want to start making noise to early on a Sunday morning).
I'll just drill a hole - certainly much smaller than 1/16
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Just buying a NXS Boost Controller on Ebay would have saved you a lot of time, posts and thinking ;)
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Drill 0.020 is enough
http://www.gusmahon.org/html/boostcontrol.htm
but I just put a ding in the ball seat.
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Yea those nxs boost controllers work good just take a lot of test runs to get dialed in to the exact psi you want.
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Just buying a NXS Boost Controller on Ebay would have saved you a lot of time, posts and thinking ;)
And where's the fun in that ;D
Here is the 10 gauge WAIC bracket. Still needs mounting holes and a good coat of paint.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bLP5O2xHsCg/UyYqv-VEK_I/AAAAAAAADRI/9dXlGx7OxgE/w975-h731-no/DSC01016.JPG)
The assembly (upside down)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2UEMDE_xDdw/UyYqsSZzcUI/AAAAAAAADQw/gV3X5aduIWg/w975-h731-no/DSC01019.JPG)
In position
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kBnNJRius6s/UyYquMlT0ZI/AAAAAAAADRA/lEwobG9nEi4/w975-h731-no/DSC01017.JPG)
The plan is to do another silicone 90 and a very short straight to the left port of the cooler. The right cooler port will 90 into the intake I still have to build. About as short as it can get without doing the "direct intake mount" mentioned earlier.
Oh well, there goes another weekend. At least I have a turbo drain that will actually drain ;D
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6x0TQPcVKnA/UyYuXZ_iVQI/AAAAAAAADRU/Wrp_qkaBlog/w975-h731-no/DSC01020.JPG)
(Edit)I know I post a lot but I guess this is the only place I can exchange ideas on this project which has consumed most of my free time over the last year+. No one I know locally would have a clue what an AAZ diesel engine is (or most any engine for that matter). As I'm doing this in the VW diesel vacuum of San Diego, this forum is my only source of knowledge, inspiration and acknowledgement and I appreciate every response.
JW
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The fitting you say is #8 measures .38 doesn't make sense. A #8 JIC should measure .50 as 8/16 =1/2 and the 8 number is how many 16ths the id is supposed to be according to what the hydro guy seminar I took a while back. #6 would be .375" as it would be 3/8 or 6/16 and I could see if you had one of those in there what kind of problems it could be. #10 should measure .625" and be plenty.
Also, glad you went to the drill a small hole idea. I would think that if you didn't and went with that 2lb spring setup it would bleed off too much boost so your wastegate wouldn't see it and not open right. I could be wrong, but that is how I saw it.
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I really hope you get a better clamp on there than that squeezee clamp. :)
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How about a light ball and spring valve going the other way in parallel? It would not let air by while building or under boost (since pressures would be either against the ball or even on both sides so the ball wouldn't move anyway), but would let all the air back when letting off due to its light spring. That way we would not have to bleed boost control air to atmosphere; a true closed system!
You've basically described a check valve?
The plumbing becomes complex but what i am referring to is a 1 or 2 psi cracking pressure check valve oriented opposite the MBC and connected to the same lines. Whenever the pressure on the compressor side is lower than the pressure on the WGA side, it would vent back to the compressor side.
Actually that's what I meant to say. Apologies for the incorrect wording.
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The fitting you say is #8 measures .38 doesn't make sense. A #8 JIC should measure .50 as 8/16 =1/2 and the 8 number is how many 16ths the id is supposed to be according to what the hydro guy seminar I took a while back. #6 would be .375" as it would be 3/8 or 6/16 and I could see if you had one of those in there what kind of problems it could be. #10 should measure .625" and be plenty.
Also, glad you went to the drill a small hole idea. I would think that if you didn't and went with that 2lb spring setup it would bleed off too much boost so your wastegate wouldn't see it and not open right. I could be wrong, but that is how I saw it.
I agree with everything you posted as well as the 8/16ths value applied to hyd fittings. I think this was some tubing the PO's tig welder had handy so he used it. The way I wrote it made it sound like #8 wasn't big enough, my mistake.
Regarding the reverse check concept, the boost is also hitting the backside of the ball so it has boost pressure (+ 2 lbs) on it during boost, so it's gonna stay shut for sure. It only allows reverse flow when there's no boost at all. As soon as boost begins (even .5 psi) it shuts again.
I suppose the pressure in the can would lift the ball and dump the pot pretty quickly as soon as boost let off though but possibly not as quickly as the hole will. Either way, I'm still just going to drill a tiny hole. I had never planned on building this anyway, just sketched up a concept that was mentioned earlier as I couldn't work it out in my head entirely.
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I really hope you get a better clamp on there than that squeezee clamp. :)
Yeah, I'd like to find a good full 360 clamp like I had for my Gee Bee silicone coolant hoses. All they have here at the FLAPS are the cheap ones.
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AN fittings have less ID through the fittings themselves than what their size predicts unfortunately :(
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AN fittings have less ID through the fittings themselves than what their size predicts unfortunately :(
Good point Alcaid.
Here is the bit I removed - actually even smaller than 3/8".
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-m_VYmFiM2ZQ/UyblA7GB2KI/AAAAAAAADRk/P5iTyDJCpCM/w975-h731-no/DSC01021.JPG)
Also, I found some good hose clamps with a full ID band
(http://www.delcity.net/images/photos/236704_primary.jpg)
http://www.delcity.net/store/Shielded-Hose-Clamps/p_798727 (http://www.delcity.net/store/Shielded-Hose-Clamps/p_798727)
I really hate to bring this up, especially after all this work, but that photo I shot earlier makes me wonder if the turbo is simply too low for a 50 degree engine. There was a line drawing of the engine somewhere and if I were to draw in the oil level in the crankcase, I'll bet it levels off half-way up the drain-line. The only solution would be a custom exhaust or flipping it upside down - OMG :o
As it is, I think I will add a steel brace from the block to the tab I have on the exhaust flange I made. It would be designed to parallel the drain hose and protect it from getting caught on something. A big chunk of re-tread flipping up and catching it would take it out in a hurry.
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Don't look like a proper text book oil drain, is it even above the oil level in the pan?
You might actually need a scavenging oil pump on the oil drain as Porsche has done, some good reading here: http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/oilsystems.htm
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Don't look like a proper text book oil drain, is it even above the oil level in the pan?
You might actually need a scavenging oil pump on the oil drain as Porsche has done, some good reading here: http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/oilsystems.htm
No, it's not above the oil but if you do a search on the topic, the discussion goes on forever.
It's not looking good based on this drawing. Heck, I even think my turbo is lower than the one shown as I have a 3/4" spacer between it and the manifold.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-bG_K65izO08/Uybt3_xc1HI/AAAAAAAADR0/_QwaWKISXeg/w1023-h722-no/Drain+Line+-+50+degrees.jpg)
Thanks for the concept of a scavenge pump Alcaid but for $800+ I think I'd flip the manifold first (or build one).
This is turning into a very bad dream.
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if your turbo is oriented the same as the k14 was then ur turbo is sitting much higher than the one in the diagram, you can see thats a picture of a tdi too.
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I guess the issue with using the stock drain location on the block is that it would make the oil drain almost horizontal, if not uphill?
In the drawing, the red line is in the wrong place. It should be higher up, at the height of the oil drain tube inside the pan.
What if inside the pan you added an extension to the oil drain that had it emptying right beside the oil pump pickup? You'd be sucking hot oil back into the engine but considering the quantity of oil that comes out of the drain in relation to the rest of the engine it may not be that much?
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tis an afn in the pic.
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I took out the dipstick and measured the distance from the stop to midway between the two marks. Assuming this is the proper fill level, I transferred that dimension to just below the fill tube and made a mark
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-aEwocQ7xtY8/UyeQqpWYQWI/AAAAAAAADSc/pMtw_F7nLDo/w975-h731-no/DSC01022.JPG)
Then I took a digital level and re-set it zero to match the bottom of the pan (transverse) as it's not sitting perfectly level right now. Using the level and straightedge aligned with the mark, I have 6-1/4" of drop from the bottom of the Holset center section - so about 6" fall in 18 inches of run - a lot better than I had thought.
I would still rather drain into a void (above the oil level) but it's a tough call. Hot oil should flow fairly easily and from what I can tell in the Holset documentation, there is a seal behind the compressor wheel.
Here is a shot of what it would look like if I were to drain to the original location (red line)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ZSNK5TFQwTs/UyeUJOd6p6I/AAAAAAAADSo/aRBdR2uKqP0/w975-h731-no/DSC01023+markup.jpg)
I measure roughly 2-1/2 to 3" of fall while using the same level as before.
Here is a shot of what I have now
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--qp6PLPe6Bc/UyeQo9wIxTI/AAAAAAAADS8/wOSP5oOxoUA/w975-h731-no/DSC01024.JPG)
I have ordered new band clamps to replace the squeeze clamp you see ;)
An online flow calculator says gravity alone will carry water at 79 inches per second and 6.2 GPM through a smooth 5/8 tube at the current slope I have. Sounds adequate to me. There may be a bit more resistance as it's having to merge with oil that's already there but It's not like it's running into molasses.
Does anyone know the GPM of the pump?
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Looks like it will work a lot better.
Given your fabrication skills it'd probably be a good idea to build some sort of protection for that hose. Would suck to drive over something and damage it as you'd be out of oil in no time.
I drove over a chunk of frozen snow once in my old Dodge van. It managed to snap the vent tube off the top of the rear axle. End result was a lot of winter sandy salty slushy water getting in to the axle and chewing up the gears within about 200km.
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
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Looks like it will work a lot better.
Given your fabrication skills it'd probably be a good idea to build some sort of protection for that hose. Would suck to drive over something and damage it as you'd be out of oil in no time.
I drove over a chunk of frozen snow once in my old Dodge van. It managed to snap the vent tube off the top of the rear axle. End result was a lot of winter sandy salty slushy water getting in to the axle and chewing up the gears within about 200km.
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
Thanks for the excellent tip - already part of the plan (page 6 of this post) As it is, I think I will add a steel brace from the block to the tab I have on the exhaust flange I made. It would be designed to parallel the drain hose and protect it from getting caught on something. A big chunk of re-tread flipping up and catching it would take it out in a hurry.
A shot of the "5th" hole for a steel protector/brace chingus. There's several tapped holes on the side of the block for the other end.
Edit forgot to add photo
see two posts down :0
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When doing drainage in another lifetime the leader of the crew would always say "if you have a 4" pipe sitting level you have 4" of fall." While I see his point, the liquid will not fill one end of the pipe completely then continue to the other side before draining, it will not evacuate as fast as a pipe that has good fall. I guess my point is you should be fine.
Also, it won't matter what the pump can put out as much as if you have a 10mm feed or the smallest hole in the feed line will limit it. You should be able to figure 10mm or whatever size by the length of the line and pressure to get you a volume of oil you need to get rid of. The 5/8 should take care of it.
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Here's a shot of where one end of the brace can attach
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NIZOYQ1mJ-Y/UxNpC_qV_WI/AAAAAAAADIY/Vwjax-yAMC0/w975-h731-no/DSC00929.JPG)
When doing drainage in another lifetime the leader of the crew would always say "if you have a 4" pipe sitting level you have 4" of fall." While I see his point, the liquid will not fill one end of the pipe completely then continue to the other side before draining, it will not evacuate as fast as a pipe that has good fall. I guess my point is you should be fine.
Also, it won't matter what the pump can put out as much as if you have a 10mm feed or the smallest hole in the feed line will limit it. You should be able to figure 10mm or whatever size by the length of the line and pressure to get you a volume of oil you need to get rid of. The 5/8 should take care of it.
Understood, it should drain fine
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Unless. . . ;D
(http://www.club80-90syncro.co.uk/pics/Devon2005/satdscn0917.jpg)
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Unless. . . ;D
What the?
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In my admittedly limited understanding, part of the reason for the >30* fall requirement and relatively large drain tubes is not only are you evacuating hot oil, but it can significantly foamed, adding to backup of the tube. conceivably you could build a small de aeration chamber with an anti slosh baffle that bolts to the unused motor mount spot just above your existing fitting.
I'm starting to wonder if this is why the Bank$ setup on my 6.2 pukes oil out the turbo under load, it has to drain through the lift pump drainback hole.
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A turbo can be mounted at the oil level. The drain should feed above the oil level in the sump to avoid hydraulic back-pressure, but because the oil is pressure fed, the return can flow slightly uphill. If the return line is too large in diameter, the crankcase pressure might overcome the feed pressure.
Back to the boost controller: why would you make it so complicated? The excess pressure doesn't need to feed back into the intake. It could much easier vent to atmosphere. I've attached a (crude) diagram of basically what I've built. I haven't tested it in car, but I've tested it with compressed air, a regulator, and a couple gauges.
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A turbo can be mounted at the oil level. The drain should feed above the oil level in the sump to avoid hydraulic back-pressure, but because the oil is pressure fed, the return can flow slightly uphill. If the return line is too large in diameter, the crankcase pressure might overcome the feed pressure.
Back to the boost controller: why would you make it so complicated? The excess pressure doesn't need to feed back into the intake. It could much easier vent to atmosphere. I've attached a (crude) diagram of basically what I've built. I haven't tested it in car, but I've tested it with compressed air, a regulator, and a couple gauges.
ah, that is clever.
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A turbo can be mounted at the oil level. The drain should feed above the oil level in the sump to avoid hydraulic back-pressure, but because the oil is pressure fed, the return can flow slightly uphill. If the return line is too large in diameter, the crankcase pressure might overcome the feed pressure.
ah, that is clever.
But also not true.
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That is really similar to the ball and spring controller I have.
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In my admittedly limited understanding, part of the reason for the >30* fall requirement and relatively large drain tubes is not only are you evacuating hot oil, but it can significantly foamed, adding to backup of the tube. conceivably you could build a small de aeration chamber with an anti slosh baffle that bolts to the unused motor mount spot just above your existing fitting.
I'm starting to wonder if this is why the Bank$ setup on my 6.2 pukes oil out the turbo under load, it has to drain through the lift pump drainback hole.
Very interesting thought. So I assume the oil gets aerated as it pushes through the turbo bearings - possibly air from the compressor? I would hope that the turbo is sealed against that but I suppose a bit could leak by and it wouldn't take much. Here's some interesting reading on areation of hot oil http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/690/aerated-oil (http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/690/aerated-oil). In short, aerated oil is not good. I thought oils these days had additives to reduce foaming but if compressed air is pushed into it, that's another story.
The defoaming concept looks pretty simple:
(http://media.noria.com/sites/archive_images/Backup_200111_foam_fig_6.gif)
Option four looks very doable. . . great, another contraption to build, yey! From what I've read, defoaming the oil before it gets into the block would certainly be of benefit. However, it does seem that the defoaming would need to happen the instant the oil left the turbo to offer any improvements in flow down the drain and it's already a bit crowded there. In all honesty, I think the 5/8 ID hose (and matching port in the pan) will get-er-done.
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A turbo can be mounted at the oil level. The drain should feed above the oil level in the sump to avoid hydraulic back-pressure, but because the oil is pressure fed, the return can flow slightly uphill. If the return line is too large in diameter, the crankcase pressure might overcome the feed pressure.
ah, that is clever.
But also not true.
I was referring to the mbc
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From that last picture drain looks OK, I'd say run it and see. Yes there is an o-ring and a piston ring sealing the oil from the compressor housing but piston ring will leak with too high oil pressure so check for oil on compressor wheel after first test runs.
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u drive it yet? ;D
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In all honesty, I think the 5/8 ID hose (and matching port in the pan) will get-er-done.
if you find you do have issues, its an easy experiment with some 5/8 clear tube and a camera.
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Thanks for checkin in. No, I spent the weekend fabing up an intake canister out of 16 ga for a huge filter and finishing the WAIC mount. I'm still waiting for some silicone elbows from Ebay before I can run piping. As usual, I'll post plenty of pics as soon as I have something worth showing.
As for the clear drain hose - good thought, I also thought the same and found some high temp stuff at McMaster - too spendy though. Besides, it would be black in no time. I really think the drain will do fine. The Holset is made to boost to 30 psi bone stock so I believe the seal and ring affair Alcaid mentioned earlier should hold the oil in check at 20. I don't recall the K-14 having a seal on the compressor side and I was pushing it past it's limits.
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I was very disappointed to receive my 2-1/2" elbows on Thursday only to find that they sent 2-1/2 to 2" reducer L's >:( I have a new set on the way (from a different vendor) and added two 45's as well just to make sure I have everything I could possibly need to pipe this up.
In the meantime, I finished fabbing an intake cannister from 16 gauge for a huge round filter I picked out at the local AutoZone - this way I know it will always be in stock when I need one.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KyX2niSGUtI/Uzc8pu_EllI/AAAAAAAADT8/nCbX3aYTBeg/w975-h731-no/DSC01028.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7MSbaph6s0g/Uzc8pNktzwI/AAAAAAAADUA/ekxz0gMoI_8/w975-h731-no/DSC01029.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dKeycUv1VsU/Uzc8om6M-pI/AAAAAAAADTw/Ftx4JMZyrU4/w975-h731-no/DSC01030.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-mmQJUHxcL0c/Uzc8mazVEzI/AAAAAAAADTY/_ePwIAGw958/w975-h731-no/DSC01033.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-84oF08j5zhE/Uzc8l6DMpZI/AAAAAAAADTQ/eVzpKouvnLU/w975-h731-no/DSC01034.JPG)
I welded two cam latches that pull the two halves together nice and snug.
I still need to build the new intake manifold but with no elbows, I don't want to chance making it wrong.
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I have 1/2 a garage of parts for this reason. I ordered x part and they send y or I ordered a 45 and I get a 90...so frustrating, especially when I was building most of the car it was a 20 minute drive away. I would lose the time going over and finding the wrong parts there. At least you could get something done.
It is like eating an elephant, you just have to do it one bite at a time.
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I did some searching locally and theres no place to get the elbows so I am stuck relying on the web (and the wait for shipping).
I heard Amazon was going to start delivering by drone :o
I had to make the filter anyhoo so there's no time lost actually. I'd just really like to get this thing running.
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Well, there goes another weekend.
It took all of it to make this ugly contraption. Good thing I don't tig weld for a living or I'd starve to death. The casting stayed flat which amazes me with all the heat I poured into it.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CVCR84tmsPY/U0HoPhZhBzI/AAAAAAAADVU/9ASCtsOrZEA/w957-h718-no/DSC01042.JPG)
Here it is mounted while I locate the intake port from hump hose off the WAIC. In the photo, it looks like the silicone elbow goes to the end of the pipe but actually, it goes under it.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hCrA6CZwNKQ/U0HoQY4pA6I/AAAAAAAADVY/ATC4CvJKXoU/w957-h718-no/DSC01041.JPG)
A shot from underneath
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-BHsh1ZFDrZo/U0HoQ0qrYpI/AAAAAAAADVk/YKmfqOZxOhg/w957-h718-no/DSC01040.JPG)
The WAIC tucked into the pillar
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-tnoPtcaCcjQ/U0HoRtzLcGI/AAAAAAAADVs/wx87DNtIOrE/w957-h718-no/DSC01039.JPG)
The pipe to the new air cleaner
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fY1CRT4Rarg/U0HoTPtXvmI/AAAAAAAADV8/OrHghJwxyNs/w957-h718-no/DSC01037.JPG)
That's it. Hopefully I'll make some real headway next week.
Still have to run new water hoses to the WAIC, install the new intake for the last time, install the exhaust manifold for the last time, the silicone adapters and pipes, finish piping to air cleaner, tighten everything up good, fab a brace to the turbo/manifold, install new oil and start it up.
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Couldn't stand the ugly welds. Besides now that it looks better I'm certain I added at least 8 HP
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ScpTE0nq7Gk/U0PyabAnQ9I/AAAAAAAADWc/r01WQVfdDKM/w957-h718-no/DSC01044.JPG)
So, theman, do you think I'll get more torque out of these tubes? They are 1-1/4" ID. The main tube is slightly angled making the runner length vary from 9-1/2 on #1 to 8-1/2 at #4.
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It will definitely be an improvement. I could not believe what it did for me. I would have tried to keep them equal, but just like mine, no matter what you do it will be better than stock.
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Things seemed to work out today and I actually drove it around a bit.
Here are some shots. . .
Overview
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-eOYfNgoTxa4/U0nfiQgMFWI/AAAAAAAADYM/yStr_gPOX9c/w957-h718-no/DSC01055.JPG)
Piping is about as short as it can get without mounting the IC to the engine
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-c7OY9UB7ybg/U0nfj4gFAYI/AAAAAAAADYc/Jbldc2rfXTo/w957-h718-no/DSC01052.JPG)
The run to my new air cleaner worked out well. I used up all the 45 pipe bends or it would have been cleaner.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-isS2xKb6w50/U0nfhAaXzyI/AAAAAAAADYE/RIfqZqAEcOc/w957-h718-no/DSC01056.JPG)
Had to remove the tail light to mount the IC. Inside the bracket on one of the mount bolts, I have a rubber lined clamp holding the rear water line so it doesn't get kinked. The mount itself is also mounted on rubber. When the engine is running the IC is ice cold - whoo-hoo!
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-kLOql0Ie7ZQ/U0nflFeFeNI/AAAAAAAADYs/0mYCOqvModg/w957-h718-no/DSC01050.JPG)
I re-did the MBC and had to make a fitting to match the fairly large ones on the turbo.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-EMrasY3tSMU/U0nfmPeeBzI/AAAAAAAADY4/LMu8QH_Y3W8/w957-h718-no/DSC01049.JPG)
Then I welded an attachment to the steel fitting and mounted it so I can get to it easily. Once I slowly work it up to 20 psi I doubt I'll adjust it again.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-JflXZABNnsk/U0nfgolqBcI/AAAAAAAADYA/Vg_cXjCzl6I/w957-h718-no/DSC01057.JPG)
Took it for a quick spin - maybe a mile, and brought it home to check for leaks - sure enough, I have one around the 900 plastic mount for the block vent. I changed the O-ring on the base (it was pretty hard and flat) and the one to the transfer tube as well which appeared to have a nick in it. Still leaks and there's so much going on in that area, it's hard to tell from where. If anyone has some pointers, please chime in.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-1f-MPkpZOXs/U0nfeu_2VcI/AAAAAAAADXk/siHx31HxA6g/w957-h718-no/DSC01060.JPG)
I wish I could say how great it runs but I never got it opened up. The EGT's do seem much lower than they were and the boost comes on every bit as quick as the K-14. I never went over 7 psi though and till I can get it on the freeway, I'm not sure of the improvements yet - but it feels good.
I was tempted to drive it for a bit anyway but I'd rather not fog everything up with oil from the leak. I hope it doesn't take all day tomorrow to find/fix it.
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Excellent. looking forward to hearing how it performs when you get that leak figured out!
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Looking good :) now fix that leak and turn up the boost :D
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I re-did the MBC and had to make a fitting to match the fairly large ones on the turbo.
Took it for a quick spin - maybe a mile, and brought it home to check for leaks - sure enough, I have one around the 900 plastic mount for the block vent. I changed the O-ring on the base (it was pretty hard and flat) and the one to the transfer tube as well which appeared to have a nick in it. Still leaks and there's so much going on in that area, it's hard to tell from where. If anyone has some pointers, please chime in.
Don't use plastic :D
Get nice plump orings form Ace.
Could one of the bolt holes go all the way through, making you need a thread sealer?
Check that plastic fitting real good for cracks too.
What is the cooling air path to the IC?
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Don't use plastic :D
Get nice plump orings form Ace.
Could one of the bolt holes go all the way through, making you need a thread sealer?
Check that plastic fitting real good for cracks too.
What is the cooling air path to the IC?
Thanks - good suggestions - the bolts do go through so I'll seal them up. I'll also inspect the elbow for cracks. Gotta be careful taking it off - it would be easy to drop a bolt or washer into the block :o. The new o-rings are fatter than the ones I took out and theres little to no pressure so I can't see why it would want to leak.
There's alot going on in that area. I tapped the end of the turbo feed-line banjo bolt and installed the pressure sender and temp probe (now I wish I hadn't). Oil is on both sides of the elbow though so I doubt it's the issue but we'll see. Based on the amount of flow it must be coming from the pressure line to the turbo.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eOYfNgoTxa4/U0nfiQgMFWI/AAAAAAAADZc/kq54U1Dp9S4/w849-h655-no/DSC01055.JPG)
Not sure what you mean by cooling path. I have a radiator and fan mounted under the frame rails. The fittings and hoses you see are now 1" and straight instead of 90s
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_ggdCk-vyhU/UlP_OgMu9xI/AAAAAAAACJ8/EXdZoUARUtM/w957-h718-no/DSC00649.JPG)
Here's a shot of the air flow through the IC
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QZ3KTKDdw7Y/U0qaArIzc3I/AAAAAAAADZw/uE7HhIVj82A/w957-h718-no/DSC01052+air+flow.jpg)
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If you didn't put thread sealer on the oil filter flange to block I have had them leak there.
Also, the kink in the tube on top of the valve cover maybe sending everything down to the bottom where you see your leak.
I am just throwing out stuff to look at, not saying I have all the answers :D
Great getting it going.
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If you didn't put thread sealer on the oil filter flange to block I have had them leak there.
Also, the kink in the tube on top of the valve cover maybe sending everything down to the bottom where you see your leak.
I am just throwing out stuff to look at, not saying I have all the answers :D
Great getting it going.
Thanks for the ideas - I'm open to all of 'em.
The oil filter flange is gasketed and I used hylomar so it's pretty much ruled out. The kink in the breather hose is a possible suspect and I have rigged it to be a smoother transition. It's a rube goldberg catch-can of sorts with a loop (like a P-trap). I have big a sintered bronze breather at the end to let out the air. When the loop fills with oil, I lift it up and drain it back into the valve cover ;D. Hopefully once I get some miles on it, the blow-by will be much less.
I have removed the elbow and inspected it with a magnifying glass - no cracks. I also inserted the tube that goes up to the hockey puck, capped off one end with my hand and blew through it to check the o-ring seal on the tube (mmm-oil on lips goood) - it holds pressure. I should mention that the bolt holes do not go through to the block.
So just to be sure the elbow seat o-ring is working, I cleaned up all the surfaces with lacquer thinner and coated everything with permatex Hi-tack (out of hylomar).
I'll let it sit for a few hours and see what gives. While I had it out, I checked all the fittings around the banjo and its all oil free so it has to be this (I hope).
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WOW< WOW< WOW!!!
Wish I could shake hands with Alcaid and everyone who has helped with the decision to go for for the Holset - this is just what I was hoping for!
Spools as quick (or quicker) than the K-14 and really makes some serious CFM. I used to cruse at 15 psi, now it sits at 7 ;D ;D. EGT's hit 1200 once with the engine cold and tromping on it getting on the freeway. Once it warmed up, EGT's stayed below 950F - even when I pushed it to 20 PSI. The power delivery is very smooth which my transmission appreciates I'm sure. The K-14 was punchy - this is just pure, consistent power. I also want to thank theman53 for the intake tube concept and strongly suggesting I try it. As I did the turbo and intake at the same time, I don't have a clue as to the improvement but the low end is strong and I definitely think it's the tubes ;D
Sadly, I still have some oil leaks. First, the new intake pushes the hockey puck sideways and breaks the seal on the valve cover so I'll need to figure out some sort of chingus to replace it (the puck). This seems to allow oil to leak along the edge of the valve cover. Then, there's still oil leaking from somewhere on the RH side of the engine (facing the back of the van). I can't seem to find the source and there's so much stuff in that area it's difficult to tell.
Here is a shot of the dipstick - can anyone tell me if I have it over-filled (again)? In case you can't tell, the oil is dead on the second ring
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-rOO6eLUk9v8/U0rELNykZCI/AAAAAAAADaI/lK0ezZva9_g/w957-h718-no/DSC01064.JPG)
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Well, the good news is I found the oil leak - the bad news is the pan is cracked.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-BGg5qaeWpds/U0rPwokBmGI/AAAAAAAADag/QUaijpAGx0s/w957-h718-no/DSC01065.JPG)
Here's what it looks like as soon as I start the engine
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yhEFVUgcGwA/U0rPv383wlI/AAAAAAAADac/Xx8XtsVuN70/w957-h718-no/DSC01066.JPG)
Man, this sucks!
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Yeah, I told you that the holset will spool fine if mine is slightly bigger and spools fine.
What I was saying was the bolts that hold the filter flange on, not the gasket. I had mine loosen up when I didn't use thread locker on them.
Hopefully you will be able to fix your pan all up. At least that should be an easy fix comparatively to the rest of the quest :D
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Yeah, I told you that the holset will spool fine if mine is slightly bigger and spools fine.
What I was saying was the bolts that hold the filter flange on, not the gasket. I had mine loosen up when I didn't use thread locker on them.
Hopefully you will be able to fix your pan all up. At least that should be an easy fix comparatively to the rest of the quest :D
Thanks about the threadlocker advise - I'll check 'em.
Removing the pan would be easy if I had taken libby's advice - something about clearance holes/slots in the tin IIRC. There are two bolts in the pan at the transmission I can't get to without separating the engine from the tranny. It wasn't clear at the time what he meant and I was excited to get it together - mistake.
At the time I was contemplating leaving out the bolt going through the transmission and into the pan as it seemed like trouble - wish I had stuck to my gut feeling. That casting can in no way assist with holding the stresses of the engine. Once I fix it, I am going to leave it out.
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Told you it would be a nice turbo for you :) congrats getting it up and running and at least you found the oil leak and that is much better than eternal searching and head scratching without results.
I am compounding that turbo in my build with a very capable home built Holset hybrid if you ever feel like going loco with this build ;)
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Told you it would be a nice turbo for you :) congrats getting it up and running and at least you found the oil leak and that is much better than eternal searching and head scratching without results.
I am compounding that turbo in my build with a very capable home built Holset hybrid if you ever feel like going loco with this build ;)
Big thanks to you Alcaid!
No reason to go more - this is just perfect, perfect, perfect - highly recommended for anyone running a K-14. Yeah, I'm glad to have found the obvious leak - just wish I had provided clearance for those two bolts on the back-end of the pan. I may try to see what I can do with a die grinder to assist with access. Plan B would be to remove all the bolts and slide the tranny 1/4" apart.
I'ts amazing how hot things get though. When I was under the van looking for leaks, I noticed the steel spacer block I made had already turned blue.
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Not sure what you mean by cooling path.
I somehow missed the part where the new intercooler is water cooled.
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Not sure what you mean by cooling path.
I somehow missed the part where the new intercooler is water cooled.
Yup - water cools off hot stuff pretty quick ;D Air to air is simpler for sure but water is the way to go if cold is what your after. I only mounted it in the rear pillar cause its close to the intake and I wanted really short piping. On my last run ambient was 68-70 and the intake was running at 63F. Had it not been for the cracked pan, I'd be one happy guy - this thing scoots - well, for a 4000 lb brick.
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Just thought I'd offer an update. . .
The cracked pan is off, cleaned and waiting on the bench for welding when I get home from work tonight. I made a custom 5mm allen wrench and with all the patience I could muster, slowly turned out the two bolts between the transmission and the back of the block. As it turns out, the flywheel has a ring that protrudes away from its back-face towards the block and essentially covers up bolt access. The only way I could have avoided this when I put the engine together would have required milling two slots through that ring (aligned with the bolts) - and another set of slots at 180 to keep it balanced. IOW, the tin was not the issue. The only other solution was to remove the flywheel (NOT).
For the record, most of the engine to transmission mounting bolts were loose :o (except the one going to the pan) - easy now to see why it cracked. I will be using loctite on all of them when I get to putting the pan back on and possibly leave out the ones going to the pan. I suppose I'm glad the pan cracked - could have been a lot worse out on the road. While I have the pan off, I will also inspect the squirters for sealant underneath each. I have heard they need it or could leak a bit - lowering oil pressure in the system.
Now I will be able to remove the brass plug I used in the PO's turbo drain port and weld it shut. I may even add some more aluminum around the new port I made and re-tap the flange mount holes as the casting is actually quite thin.
Goal is to be running by Saturday afternoon. My last project will be rigging a catch can and something to replace the hockey puck. I'm not returning the vent to the intake so no worries on "running away".
If anyone has any other suggestions of things to check while the pan is off (or want to diss me for what I have mentioned) - please speak up ;).
By the way - I really miss libby and 8-V
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If you have good oil pressure now I wouldn't mess with the squirters. You have to disassemble the bottom end to get to them IIRC.
Don't use the red, use the blue if you are going on the trans bolts with them, red will be no fun later
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Thanks for the response theman53. My pressure when hot is around 15 with 5-40 Rotella T6 - high end is 75 when cold. I was hoping it would be closer to 25 hot at the lowest with a new bottom end but I spoze 15 is OK. It was too dark to see by the time I got the pan off last night and I thought the squirters were right there (my memory is getting worn out).
Got the pan welded up tonight - turned out OK and I'm confident it won't leak. As for the bolts and loctite, I plan on using the blue. I must not have torqued them initially cause they were all loose except the one in the pan. I'll be checking them for the first few hundred miles or so now. :o
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Unless you have like 7,000 miles on that get the T6 out of there. The synthetic will not let the engine break in properly. It is great oil, but I use brad penn 10w-30 diesel rated for the first 6 or 7 thousand. It will run but it can have increased oil consumption and poorer compression than normal. I thought you only had a few hundred miles on it, is why I posted...
I think the aaz oil pumps have a little less oil pressure when hot idle. I have one in my 1.6 and with the 10w-30 I run right now I get a tad over 20, read 22-23 at hot idle, and the last engine did the same thing. This reading is at the head, but still, it will peg the gauge cold around 100psi. I think that the spec is 29 psi at 2,000 rpm at the filter flange anyhow.
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Back to dino on the re-fill - thanks
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Sorry if I missed it previously, but are these turbos T3-flanged on the hot side? There's an interesting manifold on Ebay that might work well with 50-deg installs;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/181367036928?_trksid=p2055120.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#ht_965wt_1363
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzQ3WDQ3Mg==/z/RtgAAOxyjxlTOali/$_12.JPG)
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They are T25 flanged
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Pan welded up nicely. I had to make a custom allen to get the two rear bolts out, but lots of patience and it's done.
Something somewhere is still leaking oil a teeny amount but nothing too concerning for now. Also, My intake temps are hotter than I expected - around 125F.
Overall though, I consider the all work a success. Wife and I took a jaunt of 50 miles today up some long steep grades. I was able to keep it at 65 MPH easily while holding EGT's below 1100. Turbo is maxing out at 17 psi (I swear I hit 20 on my first run). A simple tweak of the MBC and we'll see what 20 PSI does.
Oh, I also refilled the pan with dino oil instead of the synthetic.
Thanks again to everyone here for the assistance.
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Good to hear you are back up and running!
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Good to hear you are back up and running!
Thanks, you had plenty to do with the success, especially all the bits you found for me.
I still need to check the bolts in the oil filter flange for thread sealant as suggested by theman53. And my vent is sort of rigged for now but all in all it seems pretty stable. Hopefully I'll be ready for a road trip over the Memorial Day weekend.
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Here is a shot of the modified allen wrench. I get a bit over a sixth of a turn, so between letting the blood run back into my arms and finding the proper angle to get another bite, it was about 30 minutes for each of the two bolts. Still beats removing the flywheel ;D
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-u_9HlUpPwds/U1PNjPZFSjI/AAAAAAAADbU/kjIjP2jwMNY/w539-h719-no/DSC01072.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ewiJhVCw9CQ/U1PNj8-nexI/AAAAAAAADbY/-cqwj4TuG-w/w959-h719-no/DSC01071.JPG)
I used a piece of tubing on the short leg to do the final torque.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-IBpyJxrxPA4/U1PNhjhT-WI/AAAAAAAADbA/uYUMWW3x-fc/w959-h719-no/DSC01074.JPG)
There was a gap between the face of the pan at this bolt location- probably from welding up the crack. I left this bolt out but did install the other one that goes to the pan. I could have slipped a thin washer in between but I figured it'd be best to let it float.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wsRxx2NxxyA/U1PNhON0SLI/AAAAAAAADa4/cLXJwh-17-E/w959-h719-no/DSC01075.JPG)
Here is the pan welded up (did the inside as well). I used a die grinder to "V" out the crack and doused it with lacquer thinner and wire-brushed it with a SS brush several times. It still took a lot of heat to overcome the oil-soaked casting.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ssClAWtGxeA/U1PNnJYh5uI/AAAAAAAADb4/bGioxi9dVVs/w959-h719-no/DSC01067.JPG)
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Because I couldn't use the hockey puck any longer due to a 1 degree error when I made the intake, I built a catch-can of sorts to finalize my block and valve cover vent.
I put 2 stainless steel scrubbers inside.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-EOx9Mn5lza4/U1Rv7caN3RI/AAAAAAAADcg/idNSH-xOKOU/w959-h719-no/DSC01078.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Y-cpQ9-8wSM/U1Rv8EeARVI/AAAAAAAADco/L8zgam88ldM/w959-h719-no/DSC01077.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6R6At2VPSPg/U1Rv6ohZB9I/AAAAAAAADcU/MnOw1K8kEzo/w959-h719-no/DSC01079.JPG)
Theoretically, the scrubbers catch the oil and drain it back into the valve cover.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3w1ETG2SHRk/U1Rv5wdaqFI/AAAAAAAADcc/YUpyQZCYfss/w959-h719-no/DSC01080.JPG)
I wanted to make one end bolt-on but I figure if I need to clean it, I can just take it off and soak it in some paint thinner.
Here is the exit for the air and it appears to be working (no oil).
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WJKf3u00WPk/U1Rv5Cn4_GI/AAAAAAAADc8/EHObMFLSj4c/w959-h719-no/DSC01081.JPG)
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that vent could clog with ice in the winter, in which case you'd probably just have a hose come off of the can.
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that vent could clog with ice in the winter, in which case you'd probably just have a hose come off of the can.
I spoze it could if I had cold air coming out of the engine ;D. Actually, I did have the exit hose come off on my test run but found no oil film on anything. I may just take it off entirely or shorten it by 6" or so. At first I didn't know what to expect so I hung it below the body.
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The issue is more cold air rushing past it plus the condensation in the blowby.
Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk
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Huge problem in San Diego, even a gust of cold air raises all kind of hell ;D
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Huge problem in San Diego, even a gust of cold air raises all kind of hell ;D
True, you should see what a drop of rain does!
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that vent could clog with ice in the winter, in which case you'd probably just have a hose come off of the can.
I spoze it could if I had cold air coming out of the engine ;D. Actually, I did have the exit hose come off on my test run but found no oil film on anything. I may just take it off entirely or shorten it by 6" or so. At first I didn't know what to expect so I hung it below the body.
yeah i guess in sandy eggo it's unlikely to be an issue.
But people do have problems with ice-clogged catch cans in places that freeze.
Anyway, i admire your build and maybe, some day, when i have money to burn, i may try one of these holsets.
for now the k03 will have to do.
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that vent could clog with ice in the winter, in which case you'd probably just have a hose come off of the can.
I spoze it could if I had cold air coming out of the engine ;D. Actually, I did have the exit hose come off on my test run but found no oil film on anything. I may just take it off entirely or shorten it by 6" or so. At first I didn't know what to expect so I hung it below the body.
yeah i guess in sandy eggo it's unlikely to be an issue.
But people do have problems with ice-clogged catch cans in places that freeze.
Anyway, i admire your build and maybe, some day, when i have money to burn, i may try one of these holsets.
for now the k03 will have to do.
Thanks, the goal (almost two years ago) was to have this engine move the 4000 lb brick at a reasonable speed - I didn't have much choice but to upgrade the turbo. I wouldn't have done this for a smaller vehicle unless I was racing it.
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As I was pulling in the driveway last night from work, I heard this terrible metal-to-metal sound.
Here's what it was
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ilfPOXbYZAA/U1wfeO5R1MI/AAAAAAAADd4/U4kk4w3fl9E/w959-h719-no/DSC01082.JPG)
Amazing how quiet the turbo makes the exhaust - the muffler hardly does anything.
Here's my fix
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-zTQXL7Vz5G8/U1wfcTkr-fI/AAAAAAAADds/G4LSzczY9Pc/w959-h719-no/DSC01084.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lWYtFImnxrM/U1wfb25eaSI/AAAAAAAADdg/BX0ttESC_5U/w959-h719-no/DSC01085.JPG)
I also added a rubber support bracket about mid-way in the system to dampen some of the vibrating mass. Hopefully this will do it - or it will simply crack somewhere else. If that happens, I'll need to rethink the entire system - possibly using a flex section.
Driving to work every day to ring out stuff before my upcoming road trip has been a wise move. I found out that the yellow hose (I believe it's silicone) I bought from McMaster Carr to pipe the injector overflow, is too soft when it gets warm. I blew one off and really made a mess of the bay - no telling how long I drove it like that.
I replaced it with some pinkish fuel hose I got at Home Depot (in the lawnmower maintenance section) which seems to be holding up nicely. I had to warm up the ends with a heat gun to put it on and it's much stiffer than the yellow stuff.
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I found out that the yellow hose (I believe it's silicone) I bought from McMaster Carr to pipe the injector overflow, is too soft when it gets warm. I blew one off and really made a mess of the bay - no telling how long I drove it like that.
Sounds to me like you have a restriction on your fuel return side. There shouldn't be any pressure on that part of the system.
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I found out that the yellow hose (I believe it's silicone) I bought from McMaster Carr to pipe the injector overflow, is too soft when it gets warm. I blew one off and really made a mess of the bay - no telling how long I drove it like that.
Sounds to me like you have a restriction on your fuel return side. There shouldn't be any pressure on that part of the system.
I'll have to check that out. The previous hose was definitely the wrong type though and it got pretty mushy when warm. The way I wrote it "blew-off", may have been an exaggeration - should have said, slipped off.
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Do you run the 82 or the 83 carrior bars . The 82 have the double shear mot or mounts and rubber bushings at both ends and move around a lot more than the 83 bars which are single s hear andsolid atboth ends.I found out the hard way I needed a flex pipe. And mount supports only off alluminum motor mounts and not the bars or body as they move with engine. Great job GLEANERDAWG
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Do you run the 82 or the 83 carrior bars . The 82 have the double shear mot or mounts and rubber bushings at both ends and move around a lot more than the 83 bars which are single s hear andsolid atboth ends.I found out the hard way I needed a flex pipe. And mount supports only off alluminum motor mounts and not the bars or body as they move with engine. Great job GLEANERDAWG
Not sure. I'll bet they are the stock bars though and the van is an 82,
I doesn't vibrate that much, I just think the pipe needed a bit of help. Besides, the 180 bend is nearly paper thin
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Driving to work every day to ring out stuff before my upcoming road trip has been a wise move. I found out that the yellow hose (I believe it's silicone) I bought from McMaster Carr to pipe the injector overflow, is too soft when it gets warm. I blew one off and really made a mess of the bay - no telling how long I drove it like that.
I replaced it with some pinkish fuel hose I got at Home Depot (in the lawnmower maintenance section) which seems to be holding up nicely. I had to warm up the ends with a heat gun to put it on and it's much stiffer than the yellow stuff.
The yellow stuff i bought from mcmaster is Tygon Fuel & Lubricant, which is "vinyl" but obviously a polymer specified for fuel and lubricants.
And yes, I kicked myself when i saw the pink "micro fuel hose" at the hardware store for a fraction of tygon. But i have no intention of using the old black hoses or the water-spec vinyl the PO installed. So i have 10 foot lengths of 2 sizes of tygon F&L.
fwiw I am a belt & suspenders guy, so don't be surprised when you see little spring clamps installed on my fuel return hoses that shouldn't need to be there at all.
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Driving to work every day to ring out stuff before my upcoming road trip has been a wise move. I found out that the yellow hose (I believe it's silicone) I bought from McMaster Carr to pipe the injector overflow, is too soft when it gets warm. I blew one off and really made a mess of the bay - no telling how long I drove it like that.
I replaced it with some pinkish fuel hose I got at Home Depot (in the lawnmower maintenance section) which seems to be holding up nicely. I had to warm up the ends with a heat gun to put it on and it's much stiffer than the yellow stuff.
The yellow stuff i bought from mcmaster is Tygon Fuel & Lubricant, which is "vinyl" but obviously a polymer specified for fuel and lubricants.
And yes, I kicked myself when i saw the pink "micro fuel hose" at the hardware store for a fraction of tygon. But i have no intention of using the old black hoses or the water-spec vinyl the PO installed. So i have 10 foot lengths of 2 sizes of tygon F&L.
fwiw I am a belt & suspenders guy, so don't be surprised when you see little spring clamps installed on my fuel return hoses that shouldn't need to be there at all.
Belt and suspenders guy - I like that. I bought a "kit" of spring clamps at the FLAPS cause I saw the kit included some small ones for the same reason. They turned out to be junk so I didn't install 'em. I also bought various types of tubing from McMaster to try. I don't recall exactly but the vinyl (I believe it was Tygon) had a liner inside that kept pushing up inside the outer cover when I tried to install it - ugg.
Reliability is my #1 goal and it seems to be a moving target. Honestly, I got pretty deep (maybe too deep) into the R&D side of things with this vehicle and I am looking forward to traveling down the highway without a care in the world. I wonder sometimes if that day will ever come. After I fixed the exhaust yesterday, I started it and noticed my alternator belt was very loose. Hmmm, grabbed a 13mm and a pry-bar and attempted to lift and tighten it -- it WAS tight. Turns out the lower bracket bolt was gone.
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Never posted a video before. Testing 1, 2 . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XForzkX1X_g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XForzkX1X_g)
BTW, Is there such a thing as an AAZ that doesn't leak oil?
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From your photo it looks like you have a full flow oil adapter that goes to filter and then possibly a cooler,then back to engine . I would install a filter in stock location to see if oil pressure improves. It possible you have a restriction GLEANERDAWG
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From your photo it looks like you have a full flow oil adapter that goes to filter and then possibly a cooler,then back to engine . I would install a filter in stock location to see if oil pressure improves. It possible you have a restriction GLEANERDAWG
Thanks for the suggestion. The circuit has a thermo-valve that only allows HOT oil to head off to the cooler. I have 80 PSI when I start it in the morning. After it's fully warmed up it idles between 8-12 PSI which is lower than I'd like it but fine from what I've read. Less than 5 would have me worried. At 3200 RPM (cruising at 70 MPH), it runs around 35-40 psi (gauge is digital)
I have a few things that may be causing the low idle pressure like a "custom" ball bearing IM shaft. The outer races of the dual ball bearings blocked the original oil port (to the stock sleeve bearing) so I cross-drilled it to flow oil into the front side of the bearings behind the seal/cover -- should have used a much smaller diameter drill bit.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-abMpNcwPfpw/UWCyaxemboI/AAAAAAAABow/jA8GuMt9zSM/w959-h719-no/DSC00329.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ctrdI_MvJrI/UWCyasueBzI/AAAAAAAABoo/0iI3tzYODXw/w959-h719-no/DSC00328.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6brzUP5eWAo/UViV8dg4Q4I/AAAAAAAABlo/JCtV7jjFMi4/w959-h719-no/DSC00383.JPG)
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Here's a shot of where one end of the brace can attach
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NIZOYQ1mJ-Y/UxNpC_qV_WI/AAAAAAAADIY/Vwjax-yAMC0/w975-h731-no/DSC00929.JPG)
Did you cut that flange by hand with a torch? Pretty good result I would say.
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Thanks for the kudos - simply many years of doing it (back in my sawmill days).
A few tricks; no more oxygen or gas pressure than needed, preheat a tad, a super clean tip (you should see a long perfect line of oxygen when you pull the trigger), and use a straight-edge guide whenever you can.
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Just finished reading this thread. Lots of great information in here. I picked up an aaz out of a 97 Jetta that I am looking to put in my daily MK2 golf, and this has given me something to consider. How do find the drivability?
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The vehicle it's in weighs about 4800 lbs and is as far from aerodynamic as it could be.
All I can say is it is much better than the NA 1.6 that was in it before ;).
Currently I'm not driving it much - saving for a new 5 speed transmission.
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Hi, I have read through your thread a few times, specifically in regards to the he211 turbo. I have the same turbo on an AHU TDI in an audi 90 quattro. I have a similar oil drain issue, where the drain is below the oil level. I have good fall on the line, but holset claims the oil should not drain below the sump level.
Has your drain as last pictured continued to work without oil getting forced past turbo bearings?
I was pleased to read how much you like this turbo. I cannot wait to try it out on my car.
Thanks,
-Dana