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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Derekxj on December 13, 2013, 08:40:46 am
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So, I recently had half my engine apart.
I did a timing belt, tensioner, pass. side motor mount. Pulled the pump off and changed a few seals that were leaking.
Head gasket. 8V dual outlet manifold. All new intake and exhaust gaskets. etc. etc. etc.
Upon reinstalling, i got the timing on the engine nailed down perfectly ( yes ive got all of the fancy tools ).
Then, i moved on to timing the pump. This was my first time attempting anything like this at all, and additionally
my first time actually using a dial indicator. I went through Vince waldens post several times, and followed his directions to the "T".
I was a bit confused by the values on the dial indicator. around the main part of the gauge, there are bigger numbers that range 10-90 and smaller numbers underneath them than go the OPPOSITE way, 90-10. With the base timing set perfectly between the pump and bracket, and those marks aligned perfectly i was at about .90 ( according to the smaller scale number ).
Then what i did was, adjusted the pump so it was at roughly .97
To double check myself, i then went through the proccess again to double check my setting, and the second time when i stopped at TDC,
the pump timing was pretty much exactly on 1.0. Regardless of this, i decided to leave it where it was. I started the car.....took me quite a while to get all of the air out of the line, and due to a cracked line coming from the filter, im still getting a littttttlee bit of air. Regardless of this however......the car was running like complete and udder crap. it was smoking ALOT, and i more or less had to hold the gas down to keep it running.
A friend of mine racked the white smoke out of the exhaust to the fact that i just did a head-gasket job, however....im feeling extremely uneasy about the whole thing. Im used to working on inline 6 jeep engines and old V-8's, so all of this precision and VW stuff is a whole new ball-game for me.
Any advice, input, etc?
All help, as always is much appreciated. Thanks gentlement. Attached is a photo of where i set my pump the first time, " .97"
Thanks!
(http://imageshack.com/a/img855/8108/kuri.jpg)
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The dial in the pic is reading 7.71mm.
If it was "zeroed" at 7.0mm @TDC, then turned back until just no movement and re-zeroed, then returned to TDC, the IP is significantly retarded @ .72mm.
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The dial in the pic is reading 7.71mm.
If it was "zeroed" at 7.0mm @TDC, then turned back until just no movement and re-zeroed, then returned to TDC, the IP is significantly retarded @ .72mm.
Im sorry for not being more clear. This is a photo of the gauge i used that i found online. the red annotation that i added to it is where i set mine to. Im hoping that where im pointing to IS .97, and not .04.
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Methinks thats .04mm... ;)
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Methinks thats .04mm... ;)
Do you know for fact? im only curious because when i set it to where i pointed to, which IS .97 on some sort of scale,
the base timing marks are almost right on.
When i try and set it to .97 on the OPPOSITE side of the gauge, i have to push the pump wayyyyyy toward the engine...it doesnt seem right.
Additionally, the sproket is on correctly, and its to my best knowledge that it is not off a tooth at all.
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Hillbilly timing is what you need..... ;D
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Hillbilly timing is what you need..... ;D
you mean timing it by ear? lol
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Hillbilly timing is what you need..... ;D
you mean timing it by ear? lol
precisely!
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Hillbilly timing is what you need..... ;D
you mean timing it by ear? lol
precisely!
This is fine, but where im confused now is that your saying i was reading off the wrong number, which is fine but now knowing that, to get it to the right number i need to push that pump ALL the way toward the engine to get it to .95. Is this common? the car was running great when i first got it and the base timing marks were almost completely set perfectly.
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Definitely common, especially if the belt is off by a tooth.
For me to get my 1.6TD running properly the LDA needs to be nearly resting on the injector hard lines.
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Definitely common, especially if the belt is off by a tooth.
For me to get my 1.6TD running properly the LDA needs to be nearly resting on the injector hard lines.
What is LDA?
I dont honestly think anything is off by a tooth.
my TDC is perfectly on "0" , yes the right 0.
the cam locking tool slides in perfectly......i dont have to force it.
the injection pump locking pin goes in perfectly........and the notch on the back of the sproket is perfectly aligned with its respective notch on the bracket.
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I think the gauge may have read 1 +0.04 mm. Forget the red scale!
When you zero the gauge say 30 degrees off [beforeflywheel TDC] you are off the pump cam/ramp.
As you approach the injection slope, the gauge will start to count in the black direction.
Aim for TDC on flywheel to occurr between 0.8 and 1 on the black scale [ie something less than a complete revolution]
The only purpose of the small clock is so that you can see what number it starts on with gauge in your hand and what number it would finish on fully depressed.
Pick something about two revolutions from the bottom to zero your outer gauge at.
It may be #2 or it may be something else if that cog has slipped historically....
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Yup, Easy peasy...
TDC the crank
Preset the gauge with >2.5mm reading
Turn back the crank until the gauge just stops moving
Zero the gauge
Return the crank to TDC
Insert Locking pin
Set IP to spec by turning the IP body
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I think the gauge may have read 1 +0.04 mm. Forget the red scale!
When you zero the gauge say 30 degrees off [beforeflywheel TDC] you are off the pump cam/ramp.
As you approach the injection slope, the gauge will start to count in the black direction.
Aim for TDC on flywheel to occurr between 0.8 and 1 on the black scale [ie something less than a complete revolution]
The only purpose of the small clock is so that you can see what number it starts on with gauge in your hand and what number it would finish on fully depressed.
Pick something about two revolutions from the bottom to zero your outer gauge at.
It may be #2 or it may be something else if that cog has slipped historically....
1. Im pretty positive that it wasnt 1 full revolution, plus .04 the smaller gauge was still in the 0 area.
With this being said, i need to push the pump ALL the way toward the engine to get the gauge to read halfway between the black " 90" and " 0"
2. im not sure what you mean by this.
now, i read in several places to put preload on before you start the process, when your at TDC. So....i pushed the gauge in until it was on the big black (20), before i locked it ito the adapter. Now its staying there.
Then, I turned the engine backwards. when the gauge stopped moving. i stopped that instant. Zeroed out the gauge.
then turned the engine back (clockwise) to right on TDC. at TDC i was able to easily reinsert the cam lock and pump lock.
The gauge then read almost exactly at the big black " 10 " mark. This, is what inclined me to believe. it must be 90 (the small red number), NOT 10. that would make perfect sense as i was pretty much directly on the base timing marks.
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Yup, Easy peasy...
TDC the crank
Preset the gauge with >2.5mm reading
Turn back the crank until the gauge just stops moving
Zero the gauge
Return the crank to TDC
Insert Locking pin
Set IP to spec by turning the IP body
WAIT a second. are you meaning to tell me............that the pump sproket locking pin is saposed to be installed WHILE
im rotating the pump to adjust the timing???????
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So you say you took your pump apart.. Gurus is it possible that the pump head has some float in it causing it to be clocked 1* either way?
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So you say you took your pump apart.. Gurus is it possible that the pump head has some float in it causing it to be clocked 1* either way?
I didnt take it apart no,
i did the two cold start seals, and i VERY carefuly followed directions to replace that head seal where you back out two bolts at a time, only enough to expose the O ring. Thats all i did though. those 3 and then a few copper washers on line inlets and such.
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OK so you didn't fully dismantle it but had the head off thats the important part.
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OK so you didn't fully dismantle it but had the head off thats the important part.
not off either, the head was slipped up, off the pump maybe an inch. everywhere that i've read, this is the only safe way to change that oring. It took me about an hour, thats how cautious i was to be sure nothing moved.
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Hard to start and white smoke, usually means over advanced. I too think you may be at 1.04mm.
However, in your explanation of the process.. upon reaching TDC, you only moved from the 0 to the black 10. 1/10th of the gauge sweep correct?
If you followed this;
Yup, Easy peasy...
TDC the crank
Preset the gauge with >2.5mm reading
Turn back the crank until the gauge just stops moving
Zero the gauge
Return the crank to TDC
Insert Locking pin
Set IP to spec by turning the IP body
Then you did it correctly, and the pump does in fact need pushed towards the head to reach the proper timing of 0.97mm. If this does not satisfy you, you could always skip the pump pulley one tooth CW in the belt so that the same setting will be much further away from the head. The locking pin will not line up anymore, but you won't be so close to the head. Pick your poison lol.
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Hard to start and white smoke, usually means over advanced. I too think you may be at 1.04mm.
However, in your explanation of the process.. upon reaching TDC, you only moved from the 0 to the black 10. 1/10th of the gauge sweep correct?
If you followed this;
Yup, Easy peasy...
TDC the crank
Preset the gauge with >2.5mm reading
Turn back the crank until the gauge just stops moving
Zero the gauge
Return the crank to TDC
Insert Locking pin
Set IP to spec by turning the IP body
Then you did it correctly, and the pump does in fact need pushed towards the head to reach the proper timing of 0.97mm. If this does not satisfy you, you could always skip the pump pulley one tooth CW in the belt so that the same setting will be much further away from the head. The locking pin will not line up anymore, but you won't be so close to the head. Pick your poison lol.
Well yes, upon reaching TDC i think i may have made ONE mistake. does the cam lock pin HAVE to be in, while i rotate the pump?
anyhow. I rotated it, to the point where the gauge red where i put the red mark in the photo. however, if it were 1.04, wouldnt the small little gauge indicating how many times it goes around, be between 1 and 2, not 0 and 1?
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Assuming you started at one yes. So basically you are confirming you have it at 0.04mm then. I don't even know how it is running.. lol
The pin is not necessary, so long as everything is staying at TDC.
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You say that you replaced the headgasket. Did you double check the timing mark on the flywheel to make sure that it coincides with piston #1 being at top dead center??? I know that when I replaced my 190mm flywheel to a 210mm lightweight flywheel, that at piston #1 at TDC, the timing mark on the flywheel was off to the left. I had to make another mark on the flywheel at true TDC. If this is the case with you, you would essentially be a couple of teeth off on the timing belt, meaning your car wouldnt run right.
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I would go back and confirm that the crank, cam and pump are all set up right. I messed it up somehow last time and it ran much as you describe: Would not idle, needed lots of throttle and knocked like a nun's knees. I went back and did the initial set up over from scratch, confirming that piston 1 was at TDC on the power stroke and the cam stop could be inserted while the timing mark on the flywheel was at true TDC as ffgb describes. Then move on to timing it.
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Derek, the cam lock and pump lock are ONLY used for installing the timing belt. They are NOT used during the fine injection pump timing procedure.
It seems you may not fully understand the dial indicator's function and reading. There are two hands that move on that dial indicator, the big hand and the small hand like a clock and what they represent is similar. The very small hand near the center of the dial indicator reads millimeters. The large hand is divided into hundredths of millimeters (1/100mm). The entire face of the dial indicator can be rotated and rotating that face so that the large hand points to zero is called zeroing the gauge. The red markings can be ignored (not to confuse, but they are just there to measure 'in reverse').
Step one, make sure the cold start lever is not pulled out.
With the indicator out of the injection pump, push the little feeler in and watch the two hands. Notice that for each entire revolution of the big hand, the small hand moves up one increment. With it at rest, loosen the little screw on the outer rim of the gauge face and rotate the gauge face so that the hand is pointing at 0. Hopefully at rest the little hand is also pointing at 0 (some of them point a little before zero, which is also fine). Next you want to insert the indicator into the adapter and into the injection pump so that it has a 2.5mm pre-load. What that means is that you insert it so that the hands start moving and you keep pushing it in until the *little hand* reads 2.5mm - halfway between the 2 and the 3 on the little face (the actual preload amount is not critical - any measurement between 2.5mm and 6mm is fine, but it is good to understand the process). For a 2.5mm preload, that also means that the big hand will rotate 2 complete revolutions and then another half of a revolution.
OK, preload set at 2.5 mm... now rotate the crankshaft counterclockwise. As you rotate the engine CCW, the big hand will rotate with the numbers going *down*. Watch the gauge for the point where the needle stops moving and when it does stop, you should stop rotating CCW. Take a quick look at the small hand. Make sure it has not rotated all the way back to 0. If it has, then there is some chance that the dial indicator reached the limit of it's range of motion before the part in the pump stopped moving. If it did go all the way to 0, then you want to add a little more pre-load by pushing the indicator into the adapter a little further and then rotate the engine CCW a little more to make sure the pump part you are measuring has stopped moving.
Ok, you're now sure that you are at the 'bottom of the pump plunger stroke'. Next, zero the gauge face. Loosen the little screw on the side of the indicator and rotate the gauge face so that the large hand is pointing to zero. So, at this point, you are 30 degrees or so before TDC, the big hand is at 0 and the little hand is between 0 and 1 (or between 1 and 2, but regardless, take note of it's current reading).
You are now ready to rotate the crank to TDC. The big hand should start rotating up. Stop the crank when you get to TDC. Look at the the big hand and the little hand. What are they reading? For correct timing on a stock non-turbo engine, the big hand should be at 90-95 and the little hand should have moved up one increment (if it was between 0 and 1, it should now it should be between 1 and 2). If the reading on the big hand is just a little below 90 and the little hand has moved almost one increment, then the pump needs to be advanced (rotated so the top of the pump moves toward the injectors) just a little bit. If the reading on the big hand is very small and the little hand has barely moved, then you need to advance it a lot. If the reading on the big hand is very small but the reading on the little hand has moved up a full increment, then you need to retard the pump a little by rotating the top of the pump away from the injectors.
Make sense?
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Sorry Libby. Didn't mean to step on your toes.
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If you have the old style pump sprocket, it has 2 holes that fit the lock tool, so you can lock it and be backward. the keyway should be pointing up not down.
To add further confusion, my dial indicator only installs into the tool counting 'backwards', but doesn't feature the red numbers so I have to do math to figure out where I want to land. the key is as you rotate the engine forward toward TDC, whichever set of numbers is going up are the ones to read.
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Sorry Libby. Didn't mean to step on your toes.
Huh? You didn't step on my toes.
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Stephen, ???Edit :Derick here is a pic of the sound of your engine.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img600/7589/942q.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/942q.jpg/)
As I said on the other forum forget your pump R& R; (at least until you have repaired #3 cylinder).
If you get the white smoke quite quickly when trying to start, then you are getting fuel.
Look at the picture and you can see the metal clash on #3.
Now, if you can bear to look at #1, #4 & #2 cylinder explosions. Those are of a near perfect form.
Hence if you had #3 performing the same then you would have a near perfect engine.
A pump that can give one poor output is a rare beast indeed :o, if he exists at all ;D.
If you mess about with other stuff you will [may] end up like most other sufferers here and create unfathomable issues. My house is full of 'distracted from' 'fixes' :'( But I'll be a good boy next year...
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Derek, the cam lock and pump lock are ONLY used for installing the timing belt. They are NOT used during the fine injection pump timing procedure.
It seems you may not fully understand the dial indicator's function and reading. There are two hands that move on that dial indicator, the big hand and the small hand like a clock and what they represent is similar. The very small hand near the center of the dial indicator reads millimeters. The large hand is divided into hundredths of millimeters (1/100mm). The entire face of the dial indicator can be rotated and rotating that face so that the large hand points to zero is called zeroing the gauge. The red markings can be ignored (not to confuse, but they are just there to measure 'in reverse').
Step one, make sure the cold start lever is not pulled out.
With the indicator out of the injection pump, push the little feeler in and watch the two hands. Notice that for each entire revolution of the big hand, the small hand moves up one increment. With it at rest, loosen the little screw on the outer rim of the gauge face and rotate the gauge face so that the hand is pointing at 0. Hopefully at rest the little hand is also pointing at 0 (some of them point a little before zero, which is also fine). Next you want to insert the indicator into the adapter and into the injection pump so that it has a 2mm pre-load. What that means is that you insert it so that the hands start moving and you keep pushing it in until the *little hand* reads 2.5mm - halfway between the 2 and the 3 on the little face (the actual preload amount is not critical - any measurement between 2.5mm and 6mm is fine, but it is good to understand the process). For a 2.5mm preload, that also means that the big hand will rotated 2 complete revolutions and then another half of a revolution.
OK, preload set at 2.5 mm... now rotate the crankshaft counterclockwise. As you rotate the engine CCW, the big hand will rotate with the numbers going *down*. Watch the gauge for the point where the needle stops moving and when it does stop, you should stop rotating CCW. Take a quick look at the small hand. Make sure it has not rotated all the way back to 0. If it has, then there is some chance that the dial indicator reached the limit of it's range of motion before the part in the pump stopped moving. If it did go all the way to 0, then you want to add a little more pre-load by pushing the indicator into the adapter a little further and then rotate the engine CCW a little more to make sure the pump part you are measuring is not still moving.
Ok, you're now sure that you are at the 'bottom of the pump plunger stroke'. Next, zero the gauge face. Loosen the little screw on the side of the indicator and rotate the gauge face so that the large hand is pointing to zero. So, at this point, you are 30 degrees or so before TDC, the big hand is at 0 and the little hand is between 0 and 1.
You are now ready to rotate the crank to TDC. The big hand should start rotating up. Stop the crank when you get to TDC. Look at the the big hand and the little hand. What are they reading? For correct timing on a stock non-turbo engine, the big hand should be at 90-95 and the little hand should have moved up one increment (now it should be between 1 and 2). If the reading on the big hand is just a little below 90 and the little hand has moved almost one increment, then the pump needs to be advanced (rotated so the top of the pump moves toward the injectors) just a little bit. If the reading on the big hand is very small and the little hand has barely moved, then you need to advance it a lot. If the reading on the big hand is very small but the reading on the little hand has moved up a full increment, then you need to retard the pump a little by rotating the top of the pump away from the injectors.
Make sense?
Libby, that is the clearest explanation of the process I have ever read.
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Gizo, there was me thinking my dial gauge explanation was concise and cognitive. :'(
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No offense meant Mark. But you gotta admit, adding a step by step on reading the dial was superb. I've been reading em for some time, but some folks are not familiar with one and I just thought the explanation was top notch.
We all have different ways of "learning" and what works for one, may not for another;D
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Mark, admit it. His REALLY IS a better description. In fact I nominate the to be in the stickys section! I agree one of the best written beginners guides of how to time a diesel I can ever remember reading
YOU NAILED IT LIBBY.
in all fairness Mark did OK but for the journeyman level not Joe Beginner
MOD? Sticky Please???
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Mark, admit it. His REALLY IS a better description. In fact I nominate the to be in the stickys section! I agree one of the best written beginners guides of how to time a diesel I can ever remember reading
YOU NAILED IT LIBBY.
in all fairness Mark did OK but for the journeyman level not Joe Beginner
MOD? Sticky Please???
Surely not a competition ;D Better mention different FSD's Centre zero, maybe in America someone might just have an imperial gauge.
My favourite that I keep in the car just happens to be 0-15-0...
Some metric ones are only 0.5mm full scale. Pays to check with feeler gauges, and write on masking tape on rear of gauge as a reminder
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It's not about the best one - it's the one that "clicks" for you that counts. Having several in the sticky would be good ;)
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Libby's instructions are without doubt the single best description of setting the timing I have ever seen. All it needs are a few pics to put the cherry on top. Not that others here and elsewhere are not equally good, just that Libby's makes it all but impossible to mess things up, even for someone with little knowledge of the subject. I wish it had been around a while back when I was teething on pump timing for the first (and second) time. After having done it so many times now I could probably do it blindfolded with one finger while hanging upside down and surrounded by starved pit-bulls.
I am thinking it's time I got a TDI, just to keep myself from growing too complacent. I came pretty close recently... :-X
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It's a good idea to start at TDC.
Might also be a good idea to preload at 2.75mm if you are timing an ECO.
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OK I have a confession to make...
I seem to have conjoined two threads from different fora from different people but with similar problems to make one.
A bit like the 'Global Warming' sheep who became 'Climate Changers' and I predict will soon become 'Mini Ice-agers', as the Antarctic continues to expand.
Anyway I digress. Sorry Turftech. The picture of sound clearly isn't yours. Although if you too posted a sound/video track I could produce something similar to look at. ;D
If you read Andrew's essay and then reread my Limerick sized post; then what I said for using the gauge will make sense I'm sure.
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I was unaware that I was involved... Still, what a fascinating approach to diagnosis. Mind if I ask what software you are using to create the spectrograph?
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I was unaware that I was involved... Still, what a fascinating approach to diagnosis. Mind if I ask what software you are using to create the spectrograph?
It's a music editor from some old burning software. Syncronising to video was the clever bit so that you can be sure which cylinders are actually causing the problem, when the noises coming from the engine are numerous.
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I was unaware that I was involved... Still, what a fascinating approach to diagnosis. Mind if I ask what software you are using to create the spectrograph?
Holy cow yes it was Derek. Serves me right for not reading threads properly. Still all the evidence is there [here] unedited to prove my stupidity
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Perhaps "stupidity" is a trifle forceful? How about pococurante? ;)
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I was unaware that I was involved... Still, what a fascinating approach to diagnosis. Mind if I ask what software you are using to create the spectrograph?
Holy cow yes it was Derek. Serves me right for not reading threads properly. Still all the evidence is there [here] unedited to prove my stupidity
Im so confused. Lol. It's possible our different variations of the language are getting the best of me but i feel like im trying to solve a riddle when i read these posts. Especially the first!
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Derek, the cam lock and pump lock are ONLY used for installing the timing belt. They are NOT used during the fine injection pump timing procedure.
It seems you may not fully understand the dial indicator's function and reading. There are two hands that move on that dial indicator, the big hand and the small hand like a clock and what they represent is similar. The very small hand near the center of the dial indicator reads millimeters. The large hand is divided into hundredths of millimeters (1/100mm). The entire face of the dial indicator can be rotated and rotating that face so that the large hand points to zero is called zeroing the gauge. The red markings can be ignored (not to confuse, but they are just there to measure 'in reverse').
Step one, make sure the cold start lever is not pulled out.
With the indicator out of the injection pump, push the little feeler in and watch the two hands. Notice that for each entire revolution of the big hand, the small hand moves up one increment. With it at rest, loosen the little screw on the outer rim of the gauge face and rotate the gauge face so that the hand is pointing at 0. Hopefully at rest the little hand is also pointing at 0 (some of them point a little before zero, which is also fine). Next you want to insert the indicator into the adapter and into the injection pump so that it has a 2.5mm pre-load. What that means is that you insert it so that the hands start moving and you keep pushing it in until the *little hand* reads 2.5mm - halfway between the 2 and the 3 on the little face (the actual preload amount is not critical - any measurement between 2.5mm and 6mm is fine, but it is good to understand the process). For a 2.5mm preload, that also means that the big hand will rotate 2 complete revolutions and then another half of a revolution.
OK, preload set at 2.5 mm... now rotate the crankshaft counterclockwise. As you rotate the engine CCW, the big hand will rotate with the numbers going *down*. Watch the gauge for the point where the needle stops moving and when it does stop, you should stop rotating CCW. Take a quick look at the small hand. Make sure it has not rotated all the way back to 0. If it has, then there is some chance that the dial indicator reached the limit of it's range of motion before the part in the pump stopped moving. If it did go all the way to 0, then you want to add a little more pre-load by pushing the indicator into the adapter a little further and then rotate the engine CCW a little more to make sure the pump part you are measuring has stopped moving.
Ok, you're now sure that you are at the 'bottom of the pump plunger stroke'. Next, zero the gauge face. Loosen the little screw on the side of the indicator and rotate the gauge face so that the large hand is pointing to zero. So, at this point, you are 30 degrees or so before TDC, the big hand is at 0 and the little hand is between 0 and 1 (or between 1 and 2, but regardless, take note of it's current reading).
You are now ready to rotate the crank to TDC. The big hand should start rotating up. Stop the crank when you get to TDC. Look at the the big hand and the little hand. What are they reading? For correct timing on a stock non-turbo engine, the big hand should be at 90-95 and the little hand should have moved up one increment (if it was between 0 and 1, it should now it should be between 1 and 2). If the reading on the big hand is just a little below 90 and the little hand has moved almost one increment, then the pump needs to be advanced (rotated so the top of the pump moves toward the injectors) just a little bit. If the reading on the big hand is very small and the little hand has barely moved, then you need to advance it a lot. If the reading on the big hand is very small but the reading on the little hand has moved up a full increment, then you need to retard the pump a little by rotating the top of the pump away from the injectors.
Make sense?
THIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
I really appreaciate you taking the time to type this out. This is a pretty damn awesome writeout for a dial-indicator-dummy like myself.
See. When i was first doing my pre-load. i was preloading it to where it said " 20 " in big black numbers. which i NOW understand is .20mm, not TWO mm.
So, basically i need to see the little hand go to 2 and then and only then am i at 2mm. Maybe this was my problem all along. Either way, my pump's base timing marks, as well as timing belt on the sprocket are more or less completely aligned and im apparently WAY off from where i need to be.........This is what really concerns me.....Im not sure why this is like this at all.
Can anyone tell me if there is any danger in severely compensating by swinging the pump, to get where i need to be? As long as it's at the right value i should be okay right?
Thankyou everyone for all of your answers. I have a coolant leak to fix, and a small air leak in my fuel line to fix.....and then i can really get this dang car running hopefully!!!!!!
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Can anyone tell me if there is any danger in severely compensating by swinging the pump, to get where i need to be? As long as it's at the right value i should be okay right?
If you leave the lines twisted, they can crack, so loosen the delivery pipes and retighten them after adjustment is done so they are not under stress.
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Can anyone tell me if there is any danger in severely compensating by swinging the pump, to get where i need to be? As long as it's at the right value i should be okay right?
If you leave the lines twisted, they can crack, so loosen the delivery pipes and retighten them after adjustment is done so they are not under stress.
Do you mean to loosen up those isolating clamps that hold the lines together? As it was, i had alot of trouble putting the lines back onto the pump.....
I did manage to get it though.
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You must have put the belt on wrong if the pump is running out of adjustment and is real tight towards engine. Usually cars run with those alignment marks atleast.
If there isn't air intrusion and your smoke stings and is stinky white, pull the cold start lever, it should get a little smoother and chug less?
If so thats the proof you need to push pump towards head more.
I think you should do the timing by ear just so you get a feel for your engine. You will learn to hear issues with a running motor and can tell if your timing is off. I have found that if I do this on a cold motor without cold start lever pulled, I have been able to get pump into bently timing range by tapping body with a mallet while car is running, all mount bolts cracked. When I find the sweet spot I'm ready with ratched on easy reachable pump mount bolt to keep it in position. Then I turn it off and tighten the rest.
As was mentioned best to undo ALL hard lines at each end and clamps at this point to free things up and tighten again before final timing nudge. Then you can do it again for fun. Haven't had one leak.
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You must have put the belt on wrong if the pump is running out of adjustment and is real tight towards engine. Usually cars run with those alignment marks atleast.
If there isn't air intrusion and your smoke stings and is stinky white, pull the cold start lever, it should get a little smoother and chug less?
If so thats the proof you need to push pump towards head more.
I think you should do the timing by ear just so you get a feel for your engine. You will learn to hear issues with a running motor and can tell if your timing is off. I have found that if I do this on a cold motor without cold start lever pulled, I have been able to get pump into bently timing range by tapping body with a mallet while car is running, all mount bolts cracked. When I find the sweet spot I'm ready with ratched on easy reachable pump mount bolt to keep it in position. Then I turn it off and tighten the rest.
As was mentioned best to undo ALL hard lines at each end and clamps at this point to free things up and tighten again before final timing nudge. Then you can do it again for fun. Haven't had one leak.
Yeah this seems like good advice as well, just for the learning sake atleast.
I currently have a BAD coolant leak in that hardlined coolant pipe that runs along the front of the engine. Being as i cant seem to find a replacement ANYWHERE,
im going to remove it tonight, JB weld it and then wrap it with this special pipe sealing wrap that allegidly dries hard as concrete....its meant for stopping leaks.
I cant afford to put another dime into this car at the moment and need to get it running, and running really well tonight......so that i can drive it a few days before i need to drive it 300+ miles for work!
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-GOLF-JETTA-MK2-1-8-8V-GTI-ENGINE-WATER-PIPE-027121065D-C140-/200910311835
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-GOLF-JETTA-MK2-1-8-8V-GTI-ENGINE-WATER-PIPE-027121065D-C140-/200910311835
Is this the same as the 1.6D part? I wonder what VW would get for this piece. Probably an arm and a leg.
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THIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
I really appreaciate you taking the time to type this out. This is a pretty damn awesome writeout for a dial-indicator-dummy like myself.
See. When i was first doing my pre-load. i was preloading it to where it said " 20 " in big black numbers. which i NOW understand is .20mm, not TWO mm.
So, basically i need to see the little hand go to 2 and then and only then am i at 2mm. Maybe this was my problem all along. Either way, my pump's base timing marks, as well as timing belt on the sprocket are more or less completely aligned and im apparently WAY off from where i need to be.........This is what really concerns me.....Im not sure why this is like this at all.
Can anyone tell me if there is any danger in severely compensating by swinging the pump, to get where i need to be? As long as it's at the right value i should be okay right?
Thankyou everyone for all of your answers. I have a coolant leak to fix, and a small air leak in my fuel line to fix.....and then i can really get this dang car running hopefully!!!!!!
I would recommend loosening the unions of the metal lines or even removing the metal lines entirely until the timing is set. There is no problem with placing the injection pump at any point in it's entire adjustment range, that's what the range of adjustment is there for. If your metal lines are tightened, then loosen them before rotating the pump any significant amount.
Did you go back through the writeup step by step? If so, then what is currently the timing reading at TDC?
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I would measure over with the correct process and tell us what you get. It may be far enough off that reset of TB would be in order first then the range of adjustment on the pump will be sufficient to dial it in.
If moving the pump more than a pencil width in any direction is needed I do loosen all the lines on the back of the pump. No sense breaking them with all the vibration later and being stranded someplace in the dark without a clue why.
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-GOLF-JETTA-MK2-1-8-8V-GTI-ENGINE-WATER-PIPE-027121065D-C140-/200910311835
Is this the same as the 1.6D part? I wonder what VW would get for this piece. Probably an arm and a leg.
I can't tell if that is same part number, kind of looks the same.
Here is another retailer.
http://www.germanautoparts.com/Volkswagen/Jetta/Cooling/159/1
Oh and here seems to show same part number as that ebay listing?
http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=p1d22o55bi1pog55fljgmfir&partnumber=027121065D
I have no clue if your fixes will work, I guess I have been lucky and been able to clean up every one I have come across.
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According to 'KATE' same part for gassers and 1.6D [ME]
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It looks like the turbo version (has oil cooler fitting) is the only option.
It will require blocking off with a cap # 055 121 324 or similar.
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I've never purchased from these folks...
http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1992/volkswagen/jetta/cooling_system/water_distribution_pipe.html
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It looks like the turbo version (has oil cooler fitting) is the only option.
It will require blocking off with a cap # 055 121 324 or similar.
Dude I always wondered if something like that existed from VW. I may order some of those. Someday I'm going to rig up a volvo oil cooler so this plug will be needed.
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Okay gents. so last night, a friend came over and i started back from scratch. read my initial reading.....and tested it twice and came up with roughly the same number....which was about .6 no-wonder it wouldnt run!!!!!!!!
SO, came back to TDC. checked everything....and began the process as described by the folks here.
I timed it to .97
Did a check, and the second time i came to about .95 or .96.
Car runs pretty darn good i must say now, may need to be advanced a tad bit more..........but now im facing a MUCH larger issue.
While i had the belt and head and everything off. i took the entire bracket off the side of the engine, to replace the motor mount. Had a REAL struggle with it, but did it.
Now...........my brand new timing belt is destroyed. the belt is tensioned perfectly, yet it keeps tracking off of the injection pump sprocket. It LOOKS as though the sprocket is sticking out too far. the belt is hitting the bracket that holds the pump, on the inside. ( i will upload a bunch of photo's tonight ).
How could this be????? im actually really upset. I've had my car off the road for too long, and put too much blood sweat and tears to only now have another annoying issue. Could the bracket have gotten bent while installing motor mount?????? my 2 friends who are mechanics think its impossible i bent the 1/4" steel, but the way i see it its the only possibility. Everything else seems right.
Do i REALLY need to completely disassemble the side of the engine again.........AND remove my pump again......to remove the motor mount bracket? What do i do????? ??? ??? ??? ??? Really need the help from the pro's here.
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Yup, even 1/16" of a tweak in that mount will cause tracking issues. I've never been able to fix it without removing the mount and pump again.
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I feel your pain, I have had the belt on and off my 1.6 golf at least 6 times for tracking issues.
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How do i fix this? ????? i dont understand at all. Even if the mount DID get tweaked just a tiny bit......its bolted to the engine in like 8 places.
would this not straighten it out? If i take the mount off, how do i correct it? Can i correct it without removing the mount? just removing the TB and the pump....loosening all the bolts and then going back at it?
I swore to myself last night after seeing this that i would push the car off a cliff.... only half kidding. I've got too many projects, and this one needs to get wrapped up so i can take my 8 MPG lifted jeep off the road and start saving money with my rabbit again!!
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I doubt the mount itself is tweaked my bet is that the pump is out of alignment. Do a search of Belt tracking and you will find the topic
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so you got the car and it didn't have a belt tracking issue and you are using the same injection pump?
so if you are using the same parts and took the bracket off and pressed in another mount, you could easily bend it with a press. i know i have used a cut one in the garage as a spacing plate and it bends :)
i wouldn't want any part of trying to bend something like that straight.
i use the im shaft pulley with no lips because i had read on here that its better at not chewing up and came that way later?
if nobody screwed with shimming the tensioner pulley(old owners do crazy things), don't know what else it could be in your case?
for whatever reason most of the time i come across a pump that tracks to the outside of engine.
if i thought i bent the bracket i would just get another myself before attempting to adjust the injection pump bracket? but sometimes you got to do what you got to do?
its an annoying process of changing position of injection pump bracket that attaches to front of block, then putting pump back on and turning motor over a good number of time to see where it settles. i have had it take a handfull of tries before.
to make it a bit easier put everything at tdc with pump lock pin and clamp belt to sprocket and sprocket to bracket. so you can then line pump keyway into the sprocket taper, hand tighten pump mount bolts and torque the sprocket bolt to pull everything back into place.
definately get a second opinion on this, but i believe you want to move the bracket the opposite of what your instinct would say. so in your case i think you want to drop the right side of the bracket down to get the belt away from the engine.
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I doubt the mount itself is tweaked my bet is that the pump is out of alignment. Do a search of Belt tracking and you will find the topic
I found a bunch of threads talking about a tech service bulletin that VW put up on this issue......cant find it anywhere though.
Also......found alot of people talking about adjusting the tracking with that bracket.
Havent found anything about aligning the pump itself? How do i do this?
Is there saposed to be a spacer or washer behind the tensioner? I currently have nothing behind it. Basically, the injection pump sprocket is sticking too far out toward the passenger side. the sprocket needs to go in in the direction of the driver side, to track properly again.
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so you got the car and it didn't have a belt tracking issue and you are using the same injection pump?
so if you are using the same parts and took the bracket off and pressed in another mount, you could easily bend it with a press. i know i have used a cut one in the garage as a spacing plate and it bends :)
i wouldn't want any part of trying to bend something like that straight.
i use the im shaft pulley with no lips because i had read on here that its better at not chewing up and came that way later?
if nobody screwed with shimming the tensioner pulley(old owners do crazy things), don't know what else it could be in your case?
for whatever reason most of the time i come across a pump that tracks to the outside of engine.
if i thought i bent the bracket i would just get another myself before attempting to adjust the injection pump bracket? but sometimes you got to do what you got to do?
its an annoying process of changing position of injection pump bracket that attaches to front of block, then putting pump back on and turning motor over a good number of time to see where it settles. i have had it take a handfull of tries before.
to make it a bit easier put everything at tdc with pump lock pin and clamp belt to sprocket and sprocket to bracket. so you can then line pump keyway into the sprocket taper, hand tighten pump mount bolts and torque the sprocket bolt to pull everything back into place.
definately get a second opinion on this, but i believe you want to move the bracket the opposite of what your instinct would say. so in your case i think you want to drop the right side of the bracket down to get the belt away from the engine.
Well.....this is the thing. i didnt press the new mount in. Im a classic backyard mechanic. i beat it into submission ontop of a big flat tree stump, using a block of wood and a big sledge hammer. but still. 1/4 inch plate.........thats a thick piece of steel to bend.
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First off, relax. 99% of the time, if you remove the pump bracket and reinstall it, you need to adjust the tracking or it will be way off. Yes, a PITA, but both to be expected and in the greater scheme of things very small potatoes.
To get the belt to track closer to the block, the injection pump bracket needs to be adjusted so the sprocket end moves DOWN and the end with the metal lines moves UP. If you need it to track farther from the block, then you need to move the sprocket UP and the metal lines DOWN. Remove the belt and bracket. Loosen the two bolts that mount the two bracket parts together and the two bolts that mount the bracket piece behind the pump to the block. Push it UP if you need the line side of the pump to go UP, or DOWN if the line side needs to go DOWN. Install the pump and belt and run it through a few revolutions by hand and see where it lands the tracking. If you need more adjustment, then you will need to loosen the bolts fastening the flat piece across the block and push that the other direction. If it's a mk1, you'll need to jack/lift the engine in that case.
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First off, relax. 99% of the time, if you remove the pump bracket and reinstall it, you need to adjust the tracking or it will be way off. Yes, a PITA, but both to be expected and in the greater scheme of things very small potatoes.
To get the belt to track closer to the block, the injection pump bracket needs to be adjusted so the sprocket end moves DOWN and the end with the metal lines moves UP. If you need it to track farther from the block, then you need to move the sprocket UP and the metal lines DOWN. Remove the belt and bracket. Loosen the two bolts that mount the two bracket parts together and the two bolts that mount the bracket piece behind the pump to the block. Push it UP if you need the line side of the pump to go UP, or DOWN if the line side needs to go DOWN. Install the pump and belt and run it through a few revolutions by hand and see where it lands the tracking. If you need more adjustment, then you will need to loosen the bolts fastening the flat piece across the block and push that the other direction. If it's a mk1, you'll need to jack/lift the engine in that case.
Thanks for responding Libby, your knowledge here seems to be almost unsurpassed from all the threads ive read! lol.
So. I've come to the conclusion after today that yes. My tracking is off. thats #1.
#2. I ordered a new Continental timing belt.
I have a few small clarifications needed on your post you just wrote.
- When you say, remove the belt, and bracket.......which bracket are you referring to exactly?
- I need the belt to track further toward the passenger side fender, as it is now chewing up against the IP bracket...
- Do i need to remove the pump? Looking at the engine from the front of the car. i need to push the right side of this bracket DOWN. correct? How much movement should i start with to try and get it right the first time? are we talking a 1/16 of an inch, or are we talking about a half inch?
Thanks again!!! Hopefully tomorrow night i can get this done properly once and for all!
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Theres a picture here that i believe shows the bracket that you're referring to.
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=14133.0
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For all those wondering........Here is my car / pseudo build thread.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?6081477-Ol-Sooty-coming-soon/page3&highlight=sooty
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The bolt holes are over-sized in order to give adjustment. If you need it to track away from the block, then loosen the four bolts (two that bolt the bracket part behind the pump to the block and the two that bolt that part to the other bracket part) and I'd start by pushing it down as far as it will go.
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The bolt holes are over-sized in order to give adjustment. If you need it to track away from the block, then loosen the four bolts (two that bolt the bracket part behind the pump to the block and the two that bolt that part to the other bracket part) and I'd start by pushing it down as far as it will go.
okay awesome. doesnt seem TOO complicated, but i bet its a solid nights worth of work. In this cold weather here in NY...it gets rough at night lol.
SO, last question. Looking at that bracket standing infront of the car.....the right side of the bracket needs to go down, which would in turn rotate the IP sprocket up and to the right, clockwise ?
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Correct. Sprocket up, lines down = belt tracking further from the block. Dropping that bracket part behind the injection pump is basically causing the pump to rotate clockwise from the perspective you mention.