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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: 8v-of-fury on July 09, 2013, 08:29:50 pm
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Bone stock air-box and exhaust. The waste gate was cranked in a few turns and the pump has had a once over by yours truly, and is currently setup to fuel.. and it does. So much so that I can easily pop the waste gate open when boost picks up and just at 3000, and the power drops off negatively so that the car starts slowing down.. haha!
However, ANYTHING under 2750 is brutal. You had better have at least that much RPM under your belt if you come against a hill or you are slowing down the whole way up it. 3000+? The engine is a completely different animal, 3000-4000 is power power power. I pulled a near 30% grade for nearly 1.5kms today in 4th at 3100RPM with no issue, but the grade before maybe the same % but not as long I was under 3000 and it dogged it the whole way losing more than 40km/h of speed.
So basically, I guess it needs a turbo back straight pipe eh? I do believe the TD airbox to move enough air stock, as it is fairly free flowing from fender to turbo.
I guess I am just SO used to the 1.9's with the small turbo's and being able to pull and accelerate up those hills from 1600-up. Brtual driving the anemic 1.6's afterwards haha.
Power gains, what'd you have the best ones from? I am curious.
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Any EGT readings?
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how about a boost gauge? where is your timing set? although im sure u are used to your other cars with a much stronger bottom end, u still know how a 1.6 should run i'd think, and there shouldn't be some crazy jump at 3k where power just comes on. and you especially shouldn't have trouble on long hills where turbo spool up time doesn't really matter since your heavily loaded and basically sticking to the same rpm. to to mention i don't think k24's really spool all that slow especially once you turn up the fuel. its not something weird like u didn't block ur bov is it?
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Any EGT readings?
No gauges.
I never knew a stock 1.6TD before this. My other 1.6TD was open down pipe, and much peppier.. which is why I doubt this engine is being optimal. It starts, runs and drives great. Well that is not true, NO power down low. AT ALL. But, it is a no low end 1.6 with a huge turbo on it (Huge for a stockish 1.6TD..). I can hear the turbo reacting with peddle movement at anything above ~2000RPM, and I can physically see and feel the BOV or waste gate popping with ease. I am going to disable the BOV and block the waste gate, install a temp boost gauge and see whats up. I think it is just an anemic engine with too little boost.
Doesn't really explain the other 1.6TD running circles around it though.. and it was a stock pump with a little extra fuel screw. This one is fully tuned with the governor shimmed solid. If I want to, I can chirp the tires when I grab second.. but its gotta be a 3500+ basically power shift.. (not the peddle to the floor, but don't let the revs fall and the boost fall off.)
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How much black smoke are you getting at WOT before 2000 rpm?
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Keep the wastegate working and ditch the bov for best perfromance. When the bov works it makes the car drice weird as hell if ur trying for more boost. If u messed with the wastegate and addedfueling u could easily be popping off the bov. When we first swapped the 1.6td to my coupe i had no boost gauge and the wastegate was stuck shut so i didnt realize why my car woukd lose power at such a low rpm. Also make sure the wastegate is woeking properly k24 wastegates are notorious for sticking open or closed
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You need to check the timing. That has a ton to do with snap. Since the timing belt on my TDI it has less bottom than the 1.6 of mine did. Getting better but it still needs a bit more advance. If you aren't blowing smoke before boost then I would say the fuel screw needs messed with. Mine when I was trying to get less EGT would do that when I had not enough main screw. What would happen is low fuel then it would finally build enough boost to push the fuel pin down and WHAM fuel and power.
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How much black smoke are you getting at WOT before 2000 rpm?
As much as the right foot says. lol.
Make sure the wastegate is woeking properly k24 wastegates are notorious for sticking open or closed
Definitely not stuck open, boost builds up and if you stay out of it for fueling but allow the engine to still make RPM's it continues to build but if you give it pedal you get loss of power and black out the back ie. waste gate or BOV has popped.
You need to check the timing. That has a ton to do with snap. If you aren't blowing smoke before boost then I would say the fuel screw needs messed with.
Timing is set on the advanced side of things, do you need my actual timing number? No. As it is only relevant to my engine, pump and injectors. ;). It is advanced, trust me, she's clacky. She has no "snap", I'll video it.
The amount of black before BOOST is controlled by the right foot. The star wheel is cranked all the way down, and I am using a half as soft boost pin spring from the 1.9 AAZ. The pin is also on its steepest setting.
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turn the pin back and add the main fuel. Don't try to run it off the pin as much.
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The pin merely limits fueling before boost. It does not affect fueling after boost builds in the least.
The fuel is there, it has a fully shimmed governor and the pump is set so that the fuel screw is in as far as it will go with the correct throttle location before the revs will hang. This pump is giving it its all.
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I am thinking it needs a 2.25 straight pipe, and an inter cooler. IF the stars align it will get both.. Lies! if the stars align it will be getting a TDI transplant ;)
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I would start by cranking up that bov. Crank that flat had screw as tight as you can get it. You can't stop it from blowing off but you should see an improvement.
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I was going to post earlier, but held off; Jeremy, I'm wondering how you're so sure about what's going on despite the lack of gauges?
My initial diagnosis was a stuck open wastegate, but you seem pretty confidant that it's not that. A BOV popping is going to ruin your party only after you've made some boost, so that kind of rules out your lack of low-end power. It would only affect higher rpm action, and I don't have to tell you that it should be deleted at the first opportunity ;). You say your timing is advanced, with plenty of clack. So that rules out timing causing an issue. (just as a side note, have you tried adding wax to the fuel, as the late Hagar suggested? I have yet to verify the objective numbers, but I have reason to believe in his findings regarding dynamic pump advance. FWIW).
As far as punching the throttle goes, keep in mind, these aren't gassers. We don't get that instant snap the moment we punch the accelerator to the floor. But you already know that; so, I guess I would have to ask--what remains that hasn't been answered, and that you don't feel confident about (and/or haven't verified w/ numbers)? Is this a purely subjective "problem"? I know for a fact that my brother's diesel-swapped cabriolet feels significantly more grunty in the low end than my dad's 86 jetta (both w/ 1.6); jetta has a T3, cabriolet has a k03, and that's pretty much the only difference, aside from the weight. If anything, the jetta should be better off fuel-wise, as it's a full turbo motor, and the cabriolet only has a NA setup w/ a k03 slapped on. As you've said many times before, tiny turbos make a big difference down low; if you're used to driving that TDI swap in a mk1 shell, I'd guess that your butt dyno needs an adjustment in order to accurately gauge "normal" 1.6s ;D
But yes, I agree that it needs better exhaust. That would be the first thing I would do for my dad's 86 jetta, if I had my 'druthers. And then an intercooler, naturally. SO DO IT ALREADY, AND POST PICS :)
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The pin merely limits fueling before boost. It does not affect fueling after boost builds in the least.
The fuel is there, it has a fully shimmed governor and the pump is set so that the fuel screw is in as far as it will go with the correct throttle location before the revs will hang. This pump is giving it its all.
I know what the pin does, but the main screw will give fuel over the entire range. If you know what the issue is then fix it, if not try what I tell you. Stiffen up the boost spring and give it more fuel on bottom. If you have done that * as you said it will hang * then see how much boost you are making and when. Full spool for you at stock should be right at 2,000 rpm as I was well over stock by then with my car. Maybe there is a boost leak that when at full boost is over come by the higher quantity of air.
I would like to know your timing #s as your hillbilly tuning I have NEVER been able to get to run correctly in my cars. I agree that every pump, injector, and car is different, but that is why VW gave a range not 1 number to base it off of. And being that they engineered stuff to the point of giving torque specs for the 5th gear detent they know what they are doing. If you get a number and think 1.04mm is not enough and you have to go to 1.15 or 1.2 then you know that this pump is probably on its way out and needs attention. FWIW Giles rarely replaces internal parts on these 30 year old pumps and usually gives a firm number to time it to...less advanced than stock usually.
If you want to do it your way and claim that injectors, pump, and engine are worn then do it Libby's way of timing light. That factors everything and gives a repeatable number. Your way IMHO is not intelligent in the slightest for running the car or being able to reproduce it if you actually hit something you like.
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The pin merely limits fueling before boost. It does not affect fueling after boost builds in the least.
The fuel is there, it has a fully shimmed governor and the pump is set so that the fuel screw is in as far as it will go with the correct throttle location before the revs will hang. This pump is giving it its all.
I know what the pin does, but the main screw will give fuel over the entire range. If you know what the issue is then fix it, if not try what I tell you. Stiffen up the boost spring and give it more fuel on bottom. If you have done that * as you said it will hang * then see how much boost you are making and when. Full spool for you at stock should be right at 2,000 rpm as I was well over stock by then with my car. Maybe there is a boost leak that when at full boost is over come by the higher quantity of air.
I would like to know your timing #s as your hillbilly tuning I have NEVER been able to get to run correctly in my cars. I agree that every pump, injector, and car is different, but that is why VW gave a range not 1 number to base it off of. And being that they engineered stuff to the point of giving torque specs for the 5th gear detent they know what they are doing. If you get a number and think 1.04mm is not enough and you have to go to 1.15 or 1.2 then you know that this pump is probably on its way out and needs attention. FWIW Giles rarely replaces internal parts on these 30 year old pumps and usually gives a firm number to time it to...less advanced than stock usually.
If you want to do it your way and claim that injectors, pump, and engine are worn then do it Libby's way of timing light. That factors everything and gives a repeatable number. Your way IMHO is not intelligent in the slightest for running the car or being able to reproduce it if you actually hit something you like.
i also do not like just tuning by ear, i like to set it with the gauge, then tune by ear, and drive see whats best, then measure where its at. too much advance can kill the bottom end power and increase spool up times. and also don't adjust the screw on the bov, just take the spring out and replace it with a bolt or something solid and tighten it back down.
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Definitely not stuck open, boost builds up and if you stay out of it for fueling but allow the engine to still make RPM's it continues to build but if you give it pedal you get loss of power and black out the back ie. waste gate or BOV has popped.
To me this sounds like your BOV is releasing your hard earned boost. Deal with that and the power will improve.
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I know I need gauges, but the money and "need" is elsewhere.. This thing is pretty much our bone stock to-and-from work commuter and the woman's car, but we mostly drive mine to tool around as it is way more fun haha.
I would start by cranking up that bov. Crank that flat had screw as tight as you can get it. You can't stop it from blowing off but you should see an improvement.
I will disable it all together, and disable the waste-gate for a small test drive. See what happens, might do it tonight if I have the time.
Blocksmith, I am certain it is not the waste gate being stuck open because the engine builds boost normally and will until 4500 rpm if you are just on the pedal enough to keep accelerating. Anymore pedal application and you get an immediate huge loss of power (like almost deceleration) and a huge plume of black out the back. So this is either the BOV or the waste gate blowing wide open and wasting all of either the exhaust or intake manifold pressure, thus no powerz. I am advanced on the timing, but not overly. Always cranked in the winter and only needed the advance cable on the super cold starts, mainly for the idle bump. I like a nice clean low idle and some rattles lol.
The fuel is an interesting point to point out, I run a very healthy shot of 2-stroke in all 3 diesels in the driveway at every fill-up. This one and my 84 M-TDI actually get the highlight of sucking back LSD as opposed to the ULSD everyone else is accustomed to. I get my fuel every week from work as part of my "salary", and I am aware of the tanks cleaning history and filter changes on the pumps. We go through quite a bit of diesel, so it is always fresh fuel.
I dunno man, how does that K03 1.6 spin up? I am assuming QUICK like my two 1.9L K03's. They rev super fast, faster than gasser fast. I actually took off hard the other day being a bit of a show-off for a friend who thinks my car is "funny"... A fair 1500-1700 RPM clutch feather and throttle massaging got the tires loose without issue, mashed the pedal and I hit red-line faster then I could pull off the go-go pedal! No lies, I drained the injection pump of its fuel and immediately it began chugging and running rough (I thought I popped the turbo to pieces!). Let it idle well I popped the hood, and it began to smooth out as I saw fuel entering the pump ha! Subjective problem? Pretty much yes, the car runs fine just needs more power! haha I hate driving it after getting out of either of the 1.9L cars.. lol.
I'll have to see if the stock mk3 TDI intercooler will fit in the mk2, and then add some piping. BAM instant 20hp.
Lucas, I have the max fuel screw in as far as the pump can physically have it man. Which means internally the fuel control collar is in its most aggressive fueling position and will allow the pump to inject its maximum quantity per injection stroke of the plunger. This pump could probably benefit from an AAZ cam-plate.. I have had good luck with them in 1.6 pumps in the past for people. I can hear the boost when past 2000 at WOT, it doesn't come on hard or seem to have much effect. If the engine is much below 3000 when a hill is approached it will be sucked right down and power will drop off drastically. Even the 1st to 2nd shift needs to be drawn out for 2nd to have any acceleration whatsoever. Me hates. lol.
Why is it hillbilly tuning? I do not get why everyone calls it this. Seriously lol. You insert your gauge, set it to whatever number you feel like will be best and then test run it. Don't like it you insert the gauge again and advance or retard based on how you feel it is running. I do this same thing minus inserting the gauge each time. What is the difference? Either way we both turned the pump advanced or retarded to run the way we want it to by ear and feel. With regards to a timing light we all time our engines the same way, to where it runs best. I just don't need locks or a gauge to do so lol.
Your way IMHO is not intelligent in the slightest for running the car.
HAHA, awe come on why you gotta be like that lol. Intelligent? You have never turned a distributor without a timing light attached to set it how you liked it? Repeatable? Sure why isn't it? I know how I like them to sound when running, so that is where I set them to lol. Really, I'd say this is as close to an accurate way as the timing light with factoring in all wear items and all.
FWIW, Giles gives a concrete number to set his pumps to because he set them up that way on his really expensive calibration bench. If he wants the pump to begin injection at .95mm then that is where he will tell you to set it I feel.
TREV
i also do not like just tuning by ear, i like to set it with the gauge, then tune by ear, and drive see whats best.
What is the difference though? lol. You end up doing what I do in the end anyway. Sooo.. ??? ;)
PICS FOR CLICKS!
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/88%20Jetta/2013-02-19154336_zps9ac224bc.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/J_holubek/media/88%20Jetta/2013-02-19154336_zps9ac224bc.jpg.html)
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Shut up and disable your bov you hill billy
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Shut up and disable your bov you hill billy
Second that. Less talk and more action. ;) The time you spent writing that post you could have fixed it by now.
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GAH, It still does not explain the low down power which is my original quarrel. lol
Off the line, you could launch hard and the engine will bog right down to whatever RPM it wants to be at and slowly gain speed.
I am pretty sure I remember the other 1.6TD being able to break them loose without issue,
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GAH, It still does not explain the low down power which is my original quarrel. lol
Off the line, you could launch hard and the engine will bog right down to whatever RPM it wants to be at and slowly gain speed.
I am pretty sure I remember the other 1.6TD being able to break them loose without issue,
Yeah it does your bov is opening and your going from mad boosted power to *** power that is probably even less than na power
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No. LOL Seriously, I mean like before boost has really picked up (2000+)
For reference the other 1.6TD only had a little more fuel screw than stock, stock waste-gate and functioning stock BOV as well. Its weird.
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I still think it is timing related to some point. Without a number I will not try to help more. I have another idea about the pump. Good Luck.
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But you think it being too retarded would be the lack of power?
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I drained the injection pump of its fuel and immediately it began chugging and running rough (I thought I popped the turbo to pieces!). Let it idle well I popped the hood, and it began to smooth out as I saw fuel entering the pump h
I know very little about these pumps and I'm aware that you are very familiar with them. That said, from the statement you made (above), it sounds like your pump isn't drawing fuel properly.
I would think you could never "drain the IP of its fuel" by stomping on the go pedal.
As for the timing method - "hillbilly" or "intelligent", a number is something we can all relate to specifically, sound is subjective and could vary widely from one person's ear to another. However, where the timing is when you close the hood is still subjective. IMHO there's nothing wrong with how you do it. What would be difficult is for me to set my IP timing the same based on what you hear ;D
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It sounds like your pump isn't drawing fuel properly.
I would think you could never "drain the IP of its fuel" by stomping on the go pedal.
As for the timing method - "hillbilly" or "intelligent", a number is something we can all relate to specifically, sound is subjective and could vary widely from one person's ear to another. However, where the timing is when you close the hood is still subjective. IMHO there's nothing wrong with how you do it. What would be difficult is for me to set my IP timing the same based on what you hear ;D
This was on my M-TDI with the 11mm Rover Pump and .216 nozzles. It is drawing fuel as it should, and is being force fed by a pusher pump pre-filter. It is making adequate case pressure so the vane pump is healthy and doing its job.
I would never expect you to time your engine via my ear ;). But with your own ear you could very well do so. I've done a couple in my time so I know what overly retarded and overly advanced "sounds" like to my ear. I once used a gauge, and I once fooled with many timing settings.. I've got a good ear. lol
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GAH, It still does not explain the low down power which is my original quarrel. lol
Off the line, you could launch hard and the engine will bog right down to whatever RPM it wants to be at and slowly gain speed.
I am pretty sure I remember the other 1.6TD being able to break them loose without issue,
Yeah it does your bov is opening and your going from mad boosted power to *** power that is probably even less than na power
To verify my n/a will break my tires loose just fine. Especially before I moved to 195s.
It also doesnt have trouble getting up hills unless they are huge. And my fuel screew is maybe an 1/8 of a turn in from factory.
8v let's race ;D what's your 0-60 like with your bov wide open ;D
Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
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This things gutless. I attempted a burn-out starting on a hill.. with bald tires.. Barely happened. 3k+ clutch feathering drop.
What the hell. Took the BOV screw and bottomed it out. This should effectively render it "shut"
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I am dealing with this same problem, I have zero power at low rpm and very little peak boost.
I am running a fresh rebuilt 1.6 on a fresh rebuilt AAz-K14, no intercooler, stock MK1 TD air box, TT 2.5" downpipe and 2.5" full exhaust, and I have an unmodified pump. Boost gauge and EGT. Currently my EGT will climb much fast than my boost, cruising at 60mph and roughly 600 EGT and 0 registered boost. put my foot down in 5th and my egt will climb to 1200 well before I hit 9-10psi.
My old set-up was a worn out 1.6, same pump, K03 TDI turbo, small FMIC and 2.5" full exhaust and down pipe. That set-up was a rocket off the line and through the entire rev range. I could chirp tires pulling hard through 4 gears. Now I feel like a dog all over.
I am getting a nice film of soot but nothing like rolling-coal, just a haze under WOT. My first step will be turning in the wastegate screw, I have no idea what the rebuilder set it to, could be was soft. Next will be playing with my timing. I set it to .95mm and it sounds really good but I will move it around a bit and see how she runs.
Everything is still really new, like 200miles on total rebuild new, these might just be teething pains.
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Took the BOV screw and bottomed it out. This should effectively render it "shut"
No, that doesn't keep it shut, it just raises the opening pressure to 14 psi or so. To keep it shut you need to pull the adjuster, drop in a spacer and then tighten the adjuster down on the spacer.
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Took the BOV screw and bottomed it out. This should effectively render it "shut"
No, that doesn't keep it shut, it just raises the opening pressure to 14 psi or so. To keep it shut you need to pull the adjuster, drop in a spacer and then tighten the adjuster down on the spacer.
Its like hes a newb again
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I'm interested in finding out what is causing the issues.
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Took the BOV screw and bottomed it out. This should effectively render it "shut"
No, that doesn't keep it shut, it just raises the opening pressure to 14 psi or so. To keep it shut you need to pull the adjuster, drop in a spacer and then tighten the adjuster down on the spacer.
Its like hes a newb again
I am a 1.6 TD newb. I went straight from my first diesel being a 1.6 NA to a year later dropping in the 1.9 TDI with a manual boost controller on the waste gate line. The k03 has never had a problem building boost.. I have more power out of my TDI than this 1.6 when I pop my friggan boost hoses off!!
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I can't help because I don't know anything but I just went out to daily drive my 82 truck that I have been working on for months. I got it timed to 1.04, stock fuel settings with k24 turbo and stock exhaust/downpipe.
The engine was non turbo and ran just fine since I had the car for over a year before putting it into truck
Td Injectors were from something else I had running that I left on the shelf assuming they were good like I remembered.
Injection pump with lock collar still on and cleaned/resealed, stock lda/fuel screw, etc.
Looks like 2 injector bodies are leaking which I don't remember. Also fuel bubbling from where the threads are.
Engine runs like caca compared to my stock setup 79 rabbit with open exhaust. And worse than any other td motor I have had in any chasis. When I stomp on it its letting out a cloud of grey and not reacting fastly on boost gage. Like a few seconds held down and I see a few psi.
Also I thought I was nuts but the revs are hanging when I let off the pedal for a couple seconds then dropping back down to proper idle. Can reproduce that in the engine bay with the throttle arm snapping back to idle position.
I am actually scared to go out and drive it on the highway but will later and see if I can even build boost to stock bov levels.
My impression was to turn the fuel screw down but the power delivery just isn't right to begin with. I'm wondering if my injectors are jacked up and want to replace them.
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To keep it shut you need to pull the adjuster, drop in a spacer and then tighten the adjuster down on the spacer.
Bottoming the spring out doesn't hold it closed? Jeez.
ok, so like a small socket or something? It did increase the mid RPM performance though.
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To keep it shut you need to pull the adjuster, drop in a spacer and then tighten the adjuster down on the spacer.
Bottoming the spring out doesn't hold it closed? Jeez.
ok, so like a small socket or something? It did increase the mid RPM performance though.
Results! Awesome. Happy to hear that cranking down the screw on the bov made a difference. It's clear that there are other issues including still losing pressure through the bov.
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You want more bottom end - change turbo! That dinosour K24 does not have bottom end...
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You want more bottom end - change turbo! That dinosour K24 does not have bottom end...
but it still won't have bottom end then because he still hasn't disabled the blow off valve haha
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When I stomp on it its letting out a cloud of grey and not reacting fastly on boost gage. Like a few seconds held down and I see a few psi.
Also I thought I was nuts but the revs are hanging when I let off the pedal for a couple seconds then dropping back down to proper idle. Can reproduce that in the engine bay with the throttle arm snapping back to idle position.
I am actually scared to go out and drive it on the highway but will later and see if I can even build boost to stock bov levels.
My impression was to turn the fuel screw down but the power delivery just isn't right to begin with. I'm wondering if my injectors are jacked up and want to replace them.
Did you ever get around of this?
Same thing happening to me on a stock QSW TD... BOV blocked shut, wastegate blocked shut, still can't get it past 4-5psi...
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Wastegate is probably stuck open. Kkk turbos get stuck a lot
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thats just how it goes... k24 on 1.6... i had a 1.6 with k14 and k24 on the 1.6, k24 is too big for 1.6 so on low rpm's doesnt do anything... even with the screw all in... mine only worked after 3000rpm... now i'm runing on a 1.9 tdi ref AFN with the same k24 and its awesome... its like the 1.6 doesnt have enough air to move a k24 properly at low rpms... if you wanna run fast with a 1.6 just trow in a k14... but it will run well just until 4500rpm after that looses power... to go beyond that go for k24... lets say ... i saw my 1.6 pass 5000rpm with the k24... but lets face it... its not healthy... i didnt like it...
also did you rid of the discharger on the admission?
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While the K24 is outdated if you have an unrestrictive exhaust it will spool fine.
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Same thing happening to me on a stock QSW TD... BOV blocked shut, wastegate blocked shut, still can't get it past 4-5psi...
I assume QSW is Quantum Syncro Wagon? I've seen quite a few 1.6TD Quantums but never a TD QSW. I didn't think that any of the Quantum Syncros ever came with a diesel option. Are you in North America?
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While the K24 is outdated if you have an unrestrictive exhaust it will spool fine.
thats right a good exaust will also help to build boost especially on low rpm's... but its the same setup that i had before and i had the same thing... and the 1.9 there is no problem with that because sends much more air to the exaust so spools the turbo much better... if i kept with the 1.6 i would put in a k14 no doubt about it... and a friend of mine is about to do the same mistake... i had told him but he wants the big one lol he will have issues on low rpm... his problem not mine...