1988 1.6TD KKK24 - Low On Overall Power - page 1 - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
-
1988 1.6TD KKK24 - Low On Overall Power by 8v-of-fury on 09 Jul, 2013 20:29
-
Bone stock air-box and exhaust. The waste gate was cranked in a few turns and the pump has had a once over by yours truly, and is currently setup to fuel.. and it does. So much so that I can easily pop the waste gate open when boost picks up and just at 3000, and the power drops off negatively so that the car starts slowing down.. haha!
However, ANYTHING under 2750 is brutal. You had better have at least that much RPM under your belt if you come against a hill or you are slowing down the whole way up it. 3000+? The engine is a completely different animal, 3000-4000 is power power power. I pulled a near 30% grade for nearly 1.5kms today in 4th at 3100RPM with no issue, but the grade before maybe the same % but not as long I was under 3000 and it dogged it the whole way losing more than 40km/h of speed.
So basically, I guess it needs a turbo back straight pipe eh? I do believe the TD airbox to move enough air stock, as it is fairly free flowing from fender to turbo.
I guess I am just SO used to the 1.9's with the small turbo's and being able to pull and accelerate up those hills from 1600-up. Brtual driving the anemic 1.6's afterwards haha.
Power gains, what'd you have the best ones from? I am curious. -
#1 by Gizmoman on 09 Jul, 2013 22:18
-
Any EGT readings?
-
#2 by RabbitJockey on 10 Jul, 2013 04:33
-
how about a boost gauge? where is your timing set? although im sure u are used to your other cars with a much stronger bottom end, u still know how a 1.6 should run i'd think, and there shouldn't be some crazy jump at 3k where power just comes on. and you especially shouldn't have trouble on long hills where turbo spool up time doesn't really matter since your heavily loaded and basically sticking to the same rpm. to to mention i don't think k24's really spool all that slow especially once you turn up the fuel. its not something weird like u didn't block ur bov is it?
-
#3 by 8v-of-fury on 10 Jul, 2013 20:19
-
Any EGT readings?
No gauges.
I never knew a stock 1.6TD before this. My other 1.6TD was open down pipe, and much peppier.. which is why I doubt this engine is being optimal. It starts, runs and drives great. Well that is not true, NO power down low. AT ALL. But, it is a no low end 1.6 with a huge turbo on it (Huge for a stockish 1.6TD..). I can hear the turbo reacting with peddle movement at anything above ~2000RPM, and I can physically see and feel the BOV or waste gate popping with ease. I am going to disable the BOV and block the waste gate, install a temp boost gauge and see whats up. I think it is just an anemic engine with too little boost.
Doesn't really explain the other 1.6TD running circles around it though.. and it was a stock pump with a little extra fuel screw. This one is fully tuned with the governor shimmed solid. If I want to, I can chirp the tires when I grab second.. but its gotta be a 3500+ basically power shift.. (not the peddle to the floor, but don't let the revs fall and the boost fall off.) -
#4 by 410 on 10 Jul, 2013 20:35
-
How much black smoke are you getting at WOT before 2000 rpm?
-
#5 by RabbitJockey on 10 Jul, 2013 20:58
-
Keep the wastegate working and ditch the bov for best perfromance. When the bov works it makes the car drice weird as hell if ur trying for more boost. If u messed with the wastegate and addedfueling u could easily be popping off the bov. When we first swapped the 1.6td to my coupe i had no boost gauge and the wastegate was stuck shut so i didnt realize why my car woukd lose power at such a low rpm. Also make sure the wastegate is woeking properly k24 wastegates are notorious for sticking open or closed
-
#6 by theman53 on 11 Jul, 2013 06:00
-
You need to check the timing. That has a ton to do with snap. Since the timing belt on my TDI it has less bottom than the 1.6 of mine did. Getting better but it still needs a bit more advance. If you aren't blowing smoke before boost then I would say the fuel screw needs messed with. Mine when I was trying to get less EGT would do that when I had not enough main screw. What would happen is low fuel then it would finally build enough boost to push the fuel pin down and WHAM fuel and power.
-
#7 by 8v-of-fury on 11 Jul, 2013 17:40
-
How much black smoke are you getting at WOT before 2000 rpm?
As much as the right foot says. lol.Make sure the wastegate is woeking properly k24 wastegates are notorious for sticking open or closed
Definitely not stuck open, boost builds up and if you stay out of it for fueling but allow the engine to still make RPM's it continues to build but if you give it pedal you get loss of power and black out the back ie. waste gate or BOV has popped.You need to check the timing. That has a ton to do with snap. If you aren't blowing smoke before boost then I would say the fuel screw needs messed with.
Timing is set on the advanced side of things, do you need my actual timing number? No. As it is only relevant to my engine, pump and injectors.
. It is advanced, trust me, she's clacky. She has no "snap", I'll video it.
The amount of black before BOOST is controlled by the right foot. The star wheel is cranked all the way down, and I am using a half as soft boost pin spring from the 1.9 AAZ. The pin is also on its steepest setting. -
#8 by theman53 on 11 Jul, 2013 19:12
-
turn the pin back and add the main fuel. Don't try to run it off the pin as much.
-
#9 by 8v-of-fury on 11 Jul, 2013 19:17
-
The pin merely limits fueling before boost. It does not affect fueling after boost builds in the least.
The fuel is there, it has a fully shimmed governor and the pump is set so that the fuel screw is in as far as it will go with the correct throttle location before the revs will hang. This pump is giving it its all. -
#10 by 8v-of-fury on 11 Jul, 2013 19:49
-
I am thinking it needs a 2.25 straight pipe, and an inter cooler. IF the stars align it will get both.. Lies! if the stars align it will be getting a TDI transplant
-
#11 by 410 on 11 Jul, 2013 20:56
-
I would start by cranking up that bov. Crank that flat had screw as tight as you can get it. You can't stop it from blowing off but you should see an improvement.
-
#12 by Blocksmith on 11 Jul, 2013 23:06
-
I was going to post earlier, but held off; Jeremy, I'm wondering how you're so sure about what's going on despite the lack of gauges?
My initial diagnosis was a stuck open wastegate, but you seem pretty confidant that it's not that. A BOV popping is going to ruin your party only after you've made some boost, so that kind of rules out your lack of low-end power. It would only affect higher rpm action, and I don't have to tell you that it should be deleted at the first opportunity. You say your timing is advanced, with plenty of clack. So that rules out timing causing an issue. (just as a side note, have you tried adding wax to the fuel, as the late Hagar suggested? I have yet to verify the objective numbers, but I have reason to believe in his findings regarding dynamic pump advance. FWIW).
As far as punching the throttle goes, keep in mind, these aren't gassers. We don't get that instant snap the moment we punch the accelerator to the floor. But you already know that; so, I guess I would have to ask--what remains that hasn't been answered, and that you don't feel confident about (and/or haven't verified w/ numbers)? Is this a purely subjective "problem"? I know for a fact that my brother's diesel-swapped cabriolet feels significantly more grunty in the low end than my dad's 86 jetta (both w/ 1.6); jetta has a T3, cabriolet has a k03, and that's pretty much the only difference, aside from the weight. If anything, the jetta should be better off fuel-wise, as it's a full turbo motor, and the cabriolet only has a NA setup w/ a k03 slapped on. As you've said many times before, tiny turbos make a big difference down low; if you're used to driving that TDI swap in a mk1 shell, I'd guess that your butt dyno needs an adjustment in order to accurately gauge "normal" 1.6s
But yes, I agree that it needs better exhaust. That would be the first thing I would do for my dad's 86 jetta, if I had my 'druthers. And then an intercooler, naturally. SO DO IT ALREADY, AND POST PICS
-
#13 by theman53 on 12 Jul, 2013 04:56
-
The pin merely limits fueling before boost. It does not affect fueling after boost builds in the least.
The fuel is there, it has a fully shimmed governor and the pump is set so that the fuel screw is in as far as it will go with the correct throttle location before the revs will hang. This pump is giving it its all.
I know what the pin does, but the main screw will give fuel over the entire range. If you know what the issue is then fix it, if not try what I tell you. Stiffen up the boost spring and give it more fuel on bottom. If you have done that * as you said it will hang * then see how much boost you are making and when. Full spool for you at stock should be right at 2,000 rpm as I was well over stock by then with my car. Maybe there is a boost leak that when at full boost is over come by the higher quantity of air.
I would like to know your timing #s as your hillbilly tuning I have NEVER been able to get to run correctly in my cars. I agree that every pump, injector, and car is different, but that is why VW gave a range not 1 number to base it off of. And being that they engineered stuff to the point of giving torque specs for the 5th gear detent they know what they are doing. If you get a number and think 1.04mm is not enough and you have to go to 1.15 or 1.2 then you know that this pump is probably on its way out and needs attention. FWIW Giles rarely replaces internal parts on these 30 year old pumps and usually gives a firm number to time it to...less advanced than stock usually.
If you want to do it your way and claim that injectors, pump, and engine are worn then do it Libby's way of timing light. That factors everything and gives a repeatable number. Your way IMHO is not intelligent in the slightest for running the car or being able to reproduce it if you actually hit something you like. -
#14 by RabbitJockey on 12 Jul, 2013 05:19
-
The pin merely limits fueling before boost. It does not affect fueling after boost builds in the least.
The fuel is there, it has a fully shimmed governor and the pump is set so that the fuel screw is in as far as it will go with the correct throttle location before the revs will hang. This pump is giving it its all.
I know what the pin does, but the main screw will give fuel over the entire range. If you know what the issue is then fix it, if not try what I tell you. Stiffen up the boost spring and give it more fuel on bottom. If you have done that * as you said it will hang * then see how much boost you are making and when. Full spool for you at stock should be right at 2,000 rpm as I was well over stock by then with my car. Maybe there is a boost leak that when at full boost is over come by the higher quantity of air.
I would like to know your timing #s as your hillbilly tuning I have NEVER been able to get to run correctly in my cars. I agree that every pump, injector, and car is different, but that is why VW gave a range not 1 number to base it off of. And being that they engineered stuff to the point of giving torque specs for the 5th gear detent they know what they are doing. If you get a number and think 1.04mm is not enough and you have to go to 1.15 or 1.2 then you know that this pump is probably on its way out and needs attention. FWIW Giles rarely replaces internal parts on these 30 year old pumps and usually gives a firm number to time it to...less advanced than stock usually.
If you want to do it your way and claim that injectors, pump, and engine are worn then do it Libby's way of timing light. That factors everything and gives a repeatable number. Your way IMHO is not intelligent in the slightest for running the car or being able to reproduce it if you actually hit something you like.
i also do not like just tuning by ear, i like to set it with the gauge, then tune by ear, and drive see whats best, then measure where its at. too much advance can kill the bottom end power and increase spool up times. and also don't adjust the screw on the bov, just take the spring out and replace it with a bolt or something solid and tighten it back down.