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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: Kazuki on May 20, 2013, 10:37:20 am
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so i ran the jetta out of fuel by mistake gauge wasn't right i filled her back up 6 gallons but she still wont start ive cracked the lines for the injectors but still no luck i know the switch it working on the pump so thats good ive also filled the filter but i still get nothing ive also looked at the fuse block for the glow plugs and it looks like the PO just connected the 2 wires together at one port i take it this is not good for the system?
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Are you actually getting fuel out of the lines?
You crack the lines to release the air. Loosen the lines at the injectors, and crank while holding the throttle all the way to the floor. Crank for like 10 second bursts, then let it sit for a minute or so... until fuel comes out the lines. It might not start with the lines loosened but once you have fuel coming out you should be able to tighten them back up.
The glow plugs should have a fuse, and it would be prudent to put that back and check the condition of the glow plugs, but if it worked fine before you ran it out of fuel it's probably not the glow plugs.
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yeah ive cracked the lines cranked then tightened and repeated still not firing. is the fuel system pressured on these cars?
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Did you see fuel coming out of the lines? Don't close them until little drops of fuel start coming out.
I don't know what you mean by "pressurized." The injectors operate at very high pressure, like 2000 psi, so they have to have full pressure with no air to open properly. With air, there isn't enough pressure to fire the injectors.
The other side of the system, before the injection pump, is not pressurized. The fuel is drawn up from the tank, through the fuel filter, and into the pump by an internal fuel pump within the injection pump. Does that make sense?
I suppose it could have "lost prime" and isn't drawing fuel. You might try to force feed it some fuel, by putting pouring fuel to the inlet nipple of the injection pump, through a funnel and hose, maybe elevate the funnel some so gravity helps it fill, then crank.
edit: We're talking about an older VW, not a TDI, right?
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I'd attach a hand-operated "Mighty-vac" (or the cheap copy) to the IP outlet (tank return line) and pull fuel through the IP, then try cranking until fuel appears at the injectors.
(http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage//N3378/large/9020007_acn_cp7835_pri_larg.jpg)
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Those things are nice, if you have them. I have one, I use it for brakes, works great.
Has anyone tried using a boat primer bulb for filling the pump on one of our cars? It seems like it would work, no?
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Works just fine, ive used a primer ball as a permanent piece on a car a few years ago..
The pump is definitely just needing to be primed. As was said you need to see fuel at the lines beofreyou tighten them back up.
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Works just fine, ive used a primer ball as a permanent piece on a car a few years ago..
The pump is definitely just needing to be primed. As was said you need to see fuel at the lines beofreyou tighten them back up.
Yes I think your right I just pulled all of the glow plugs and found one that was broken / dead
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update i poured fuel in the main line and tried priming the system im not getting anything injectors 1&3 are not getting fuel 2&4 are getting plenty of fuel ???
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if two have fuel you should be good, tighten them back up.. and get a another vehicle to jump start so you have real fast crank speed
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Tighten 2 and 4 and keep cranking with your foot to the floor. Better yet, have someone pull you around but tighten all 4 if you are doing this
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I just had mine all apart over the weekend. If I see fuel on one or two loose injector nuts I close them all tight. I then hit the glows and hold the foot at half throttle and hit the starter. Hold the key until it revs pretty good. I let it go a bit and be sure all the air is out of the lines. Once it is good and strong running I back the foot out of it.
New rings this weekend. Hoping to burn less oil and blowby. So far looks promising. Still got 34 mpg in town with nearly gone top ring on #3 and a broken oil ring on #1. I had a real nasty blow by problem and constant blue smoke out the back.
Too bad I don't need to drive long haul anymore. I wonder if I would be cracking the 50 mpg barrier now.
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I just had mine all apart over the weekend. If I see fuel on one or two loose injector nuts I close them all tight. I then hit the glows and hold the foot at half throttle and hit the starter. Hold the key until it revs pretty good. I let it go a bit and be sure all the air is out of the lines. Once it is good and strong running I back the foot out of it.
New rings this weekend. Hoping to burn less oil and blowby. So far looks promising. Still got 34 mpg in town with nearly gone top ring on #3 and a broken oil ring on #1. I had a real nasty blow by problem and constant blue smoke out the back.
Too bad I don't need to drive long haul anymore. I wonder if I would be cracking the 50 mpg barrier now.
yep pressing down the pedal has always seemed to help on mine, and also filling the injection pump through the out hole.
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I just had mine all apart over the weekend. If I see fuel on one or two loose injector nuts I close them all tight. I then hit the glows and hold the foot at half throttle and hit the starter. Hold the key until it revs pretty good. I let it go a bit and be sure all the air is out of the lines. Once it is good and strong running I back the foot out of it.
New rings this weekend. Hoping to burn less oil and blowby. So far looks promising. Still got 34 mpg in town with nearly gone top ring on #3 and a broken oil ring on #1. I had a real nasty blow by problem and constant blue smoke out the back.
Too bad I don't need to drive long haul anymore. I wonder if I would be cracking the 50 mpg barrier now.
yep pressing down the pedal has always seemed to help on mine, and also filling the injection pump through the out hole.
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I've tired that ^ filling the injection pump through the out hole
also heres a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OmAdqvae4Y
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Saw the vid.
I'd bottle-feed: from (and back-to) a clean container, to separate the filter and long lines from the variables. Ensure there is flow through the IP.
I'd also verify the basics:
No air in lines
Cold-start lever pulled
12V at GPs
Then, I'd check compression and timing.
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Saw the vid.
I'd bottle-feed: from (and back-to) a clean container, to separate the filter and long lines from the variables. Ensure there is flow through the IP.
I'd also verify the basics:
No air in lines
Cold-start lever pulled
12V at GPs
Then, I'd check compression and timing.
timing is good
cold-start pulled
i dont think theres air in the lines ive bleed the system #3 injectoer is not pumping fuel out when shes cracked loose ?
ok so i checked volts going from + bat to the wire on the block im geting 10-12v
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Crack the nut at the pump at number 3 to see if there is fuel there. If so move to top and crack that one until fuel comes to the nut.
But really if you have it at three others the fourth shouldn't matter. It will be difficult to start but not impossible.
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Crack the nut at the pump at number 3 to see if there is fuel there. If so move to top and crack that one until fuel comes to the nut.
But really if you have it at three others the fourth shouldn't matter. It will be difficult to start but not impossible.
I'm getting fuel at all injectors I'm going to try and add pressure to the fuel tank and see what happens
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Nothing will happen, the return line will negate your pressure.
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If you have fuel clear to the injector and still think it isn't working then you need to service the injector.
Something in the body or line that is preventing fuel from spitting out the other end.
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WD-40 sprayed into the intake while cranking might get it going. Adding an electric fuel pump is a big help for starting problems, the little mechanical pump has a tough time with air or any restrictions (i.e. clogged fuel filter) in the system... hard on your battery/starter, too.
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ok so ive made progress i found out that im not gettting fuel from the tank theres a block of some sort do i have a 2d pump? cause i saw this picture below and theirs wires running to it and
the fuel lines from the tank go in to it then run up to the filter.
i also got a bottle and filled it with diesel and tried starting her with a bottle full of diesel no luck the pump is sucking from the bottle just fine
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5935/img20130522085337.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/img20130522085337.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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I'd take the injector lines off the IP and watch the delivery valves while someone cranks the engine... fuel should sequentially spit from each delivery valve. Keeping fuel off the hoses is easy using shop rags.
I'd remove any delivery valves that don't spit (being careful to not lose the guts) and test again.
Sucking from the bottle needs to be more specific... fuel needs to be flowing to the IP and from the IP *without bubbles* at about .5 liter/min when the engine is cranking. (About 1 liter/min @1000rpm)
The picture is a useless water-separator which most folks remove and replace with fuel line. They get brittle with age and leak air into the line.
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I'd take the injector lines off the IP and watch the delivery valves while someone cranks the engine... fuel should sequentially spit from each delivery valve. Keeping fuel off the hoses is easy using shop rags.
I'd remove any delivery valves that don't spit (being careful to not lose the guts) and test again.
Sucking from the bottle needs to be more specific... fuel needs to be flowing to the IP and from the IP *without bubbles* at about .5 liter/min when the engine is cranking. (About 1 liter/min @1000rpm)
The picture is a useless water-separator which most folks remove and replace with fuel line. They get brittle with age and leak air into the line.
hmm ok i have a gatorade bottle with diesel in it going to the IP inlet with clear line when i stop cracking theirs air bubbles that back flow from the inlet in to the bottle. then also from the return line going to the fuel tank i can see air . so im going to bleed the system there must be a lot or air
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get rid of that water separator.
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get rid of that water separator.
yeah im going to
here what i have set up for the moment
im still getting a bit of air somewere i think it might be from the water separator
(http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/9596/img20130522124241.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/img20130522124241.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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Are you sure about no air in the fuel filter? Or the little screw on top being loose? With that much air in the lines you may have a seal problem on the pump. Running on the Gatorade bottle will tell you that. To get fuel into and air out of the IP I use a big syringe for mixing 2 stroke oil. The diameter of the hose just fits in the out bolt hole and I can see air in it as the plastic is clear. I pull air and some fuel in then let the fuel drain back in. Then pull on it some more till I can see fuel all the way to the top of the pump. Granted that does not get it all but 98 percent of it.
With air like you have in the lines I doubt it will run proper. And why is it blue? Purge? Or koolaid
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Are you sure about no air in the fuel filter? Or the little screw on top being loose? With that much air in the lines you may have a seal problem on the pump. Running on the Gatorade bottle will tell you that. To get fuel into and air out of the IP I use a big syringe for mixing 2 stroke oil. The diameter of the hose just fits in the out bolt hole and I can see air in it as the plastic is clear. I pull air and some fuel in then let the fuel drain back in. Then pull on it some more till I can see fuel all the way to the top of the pump. Granted that does not get it all but 98 percent of it.
With air like you have in the lines I doubt it will run proper. And why is it blue? Purge? Or koolaid
yeah its weird tho she wont pump any more fuel when cranking its like it cant pull the fuel when air get in then she tires to fire its weird i can make a video to show you guys oh and the blue idk its diesel? the little screw it tight . i also removed the water separator
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Farm diesel is blue. Off road is red. White/clear is on road fuel.
Yea water seperators can *** up. So u got it running from the can ?
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If you got both lines in a can, and lets assume u got compression and glow, and the timing didnt jump,and the fuel solenoid is workin , id start lookin for a pump im thinkin.
Guys he said his aneroid pin is straight so it doesn't have boost enrichment anyways so IMO screw it and use a NA pump. Easier and cheaper to find
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If you got both lines in a can, and lets assume u got compression and glow, and the timing didnt jump,and the fuel solenoid is workin , id start lookin for a pump im thinkin.
Guys he said his aneroid pin is straight so it doesn't have boost enrichment anyways so IMO screw it and use a NA pump. Easier and cheaper to find
well im still looking for a pump anyone have one for sale?
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(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii563/hillfolkvwdude/CFE42162-D257-49EB-BDC3-F453BBE422B0-1803-0000025CB7F0FF18.jpg)
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii563/hillfolkvwdude/null-3.jpg)
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ok here the picture ignore the white marks look at the bottom around 5 oclock and you can see a notch in the gear not look at the mark on the plate uptop they dont line up but if you rotate 180 so that the socket is in the other hole then they will line up . unless im crazy .... ???
its hard to see the notch but you can see it if you look
btw if you click on the picture you can zoom it
(http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/4927/img20130522155057.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/img20130522155057.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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Is the flywheel mark @ TDC? If so, the IP would be 180o out. (I would check the camshaft too.)
How badly did it run when it ran?
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Is the flywheel mark @ TDC? If so, the IP would be 180o out. (I would check the camshaft too.)
How badly did it run when it ran?
Yes tdc and I checked the cam she's good it ran OK but like poop sometimes
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Looks like you have what I call the "bull*** pulley" that has two holes cut the same size on both ends and makes it easy to mess up if you aren't paying attention to the other mark.
Silly Germans, thanks for finally making it easier for us though!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/Pumpsprocket_zps1adce72a.jpg)
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Hey when your timing is correct and if you pulled the nut off the ip pulley sprocket,the keyway notch should be at the 1 o'clock position. Can someone help me out here i forgot the exact position the keyway should be but i know it would definately be pointing towards the up position
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Hey when your timing is correct and if you pulled the nut off the ip pulley sprocket,the keyway notch should be at the 1 o'clock position. Can someone help me out here i forgot the exact position the keyway should be but i know it would definately be pointing towards the up position
The pulley's keyway is oriented like this to the correct hole you are supposed to use.
This keyway would actually be pointing towards around 9PM on a clock with the sprocket locked in correct position.
Timing the pump (moving the pump, not the sprocket) shouldn't affect the location of the keyway since it is locked in place.
(http://www.westportparts.com/images/068130111B.JPG)
*Hotlinked from one of the Prothe clones*
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Yeah if the cam is at tdc then the pump is 180 out
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Yeah if the cam is at tdc then the pump is 180 out
Hmm yeah I wonder how that happend maybe the shop didn't time it right ? It it jumped?
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The pulley's keyway is oriented like this to the correct hole you are supposed to use.
This keyway would actually be pointing towards around 9PM on a clock with the sprocket locked in correct
(http://www.westportparts.com/images/068130111B.JPG)
*Hotlinked from one of the Prothe clones*
Thats what i was lookin for, 9oclock :)
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(http://www.westportparts.com/images/068130111B.JPG)
This pulley gets to bone you if the internals of your pump are 180 off.
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Yeah if the cam is at tdc then the pump is 180 out
Hmm yeah I wonder how that happend maybe the shop didn't time it right ? It it jumped?
if its that far out the shop screwed it up
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ok so heres what i found ???
(http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/1835/img20130523090620.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/img20130523090620.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
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Looks to be on there right, but does your sprocket not have the mark to line up with the mount mark?
I thought they all did regardless of year, that's strange.
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Looks to be on there right, but does your sprocket not have the mark to line up with the mount mark?
I thought they all did regardless of year, that's strange.
it does if you look down at the sproket the 1st tooth to touch it there the mark
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Ok I zoomed your pic and I can faintly see the line there I think...
Your pump isn't 180 out we know that for sure now.
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Ok I zoomed your pic and I can faintly see the line there I think...
Your pump isn't 180 out we know that for sure now.
dam i was hopeing it was lol
welll now i have no idea =/
then how come my timing marks on the pump dont line up?
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then how come my timing marks on the pump dont line up?
What timing marks are you referring to?
The "timing marks" to me are the mark in the pulley, the mark on the pump mount bracket, and the hole for the holder tool.
From the looks of your picture there, all of those are where they are supposed to be.
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If you go to the pulley and count back 3 or 4 teeth and look on the backside of said pulley is there a small notch on the edge of the pulley itself? This should be lining up with another small bar like protrusion on the top of the pump or another notch on the bracket that holds the pump in place.
Those are the marks I have on my 81.
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Your pump isn't 180 out we know that for sure now.
All we know is that externally the pump is in time. If the camplate was installed incorrectly then you need to set the pump up 180 out to get things timed correctly.
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Your pump isn't 180 out we know that for sure now.
All we know is that externally the pump is in time. If the camplate was installed incorrectly then you need to set the pump up 180 out to get things timed correctly.
weird i wonder how she was running b4
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To determine the IP is internally in-time, the engine can be turned and the Cyl #1 delivery valve should emit fuel at ~0o crank TDC.
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Your pump isn't 180 out we know that for sure now.
All we know is that externally the pump is in time. If the camplate was installed incorrectly then you need to set the pump up 180 out to get things timed correctly.
weird i wonder how she was running b4
Sorry I got your thread mixed up with another one.
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So I was reading through this thread more...
I'm getting fuel at all injectors I'm going to try and add pressure to the fuel tank and see what happens
One time you are saying fuel at all injectors...
ok so ive made progress i found out that im not gettting fuel from the tank theres a block of some sort do i have a 2d pump? cause i saw this picture below and theirs wires running to it and
the fuel lines from the tank go in to it then run up to the filter.
i also got a bottle and filled it with diesel and tried starting her with a bottle full of diesel no luck the pump is sucking from the bottle just fine
Then you say you aren't getting any fuel from the tank, and that the pump is sucking from the bottle fine...
yeah its weird tho she wont pump any more fuel when cranking its like it cant pull the fuel when air get in then she tires to fire its weird i can make a video to show you guys oh and the blue idk its diesel? the little screw it tight . i also removed the water separator
And the last update was the pump isn't even pumping fuel into itself anymore...
So what is it?
Are you stuck with a pump that won't pump?
Be 100% certain you have as much diesel as you can get into the pump...
However you gotta do it, fill the pump with diesel through both the in and out holes...easiest and fastest way to do this is buy a $19 primer bulb from WalMart and hook it up and pump it through like this:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/dedfrog/INJ%20PUMP/image003-1_zps5c7fe409.jpg)
While cranking you should have tons of fuel pumping through the pump going in and going out, regardless of the stop solenoid or anything else.
If the pump isn't pumping and circulating fuel on it's own, your vane pump inside the pump is faulty.
I could venture a scenario where the vane pump has just gotten a little varnished and gummed up over time, but was still limping along as long as it had a good steady stream of diesel still.
You ran it dry, got a bunch of air in there, maybe it sat around a while, and now the vanes are just simply stuck and the pump can't pump it's own fuel in.
I wish I had a nice high-res pic to show you the tolerances that are involved in that assembly.
Do you have the tools and know-how to swap a pump?
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Looking at the picture provided by EcoTX I started to wonder if you have checked the voltage at the on off fuel valve itself on the back of the pump. Is that hanging up or not getting voltage? Or intermittent voltage from a loose connection. That would be even harder to find.
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Looking at the picture provided by EcoTX I started to wonder if you have checked the voltage at the on off fuel valve itself on the back of the pump. Is that hanging up or not getting voltage? Or intermittent voltage from a loose connection. That would be even harder to find.
ive check the voltage its good and ive also filled the pump like that im sending it off for a rebuild
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Updates?
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Updates?
yeah how about some updates?
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Getting voltage is only half the solution. You have to verify with a click and a look. They wear in strange places and yes the voltage is there but the plunger still does not come up to allow fuel in.
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Getting voltage is only half the solution. You have to verify with a click and a look. They wear in strange places and yes the voltage is there but the plunger still does not come up to allow fuel in.
'Ay, but the pump will still pull fuel in the IN bolt and pump fuel out the OUT bolt. Regardless of 12v or not.
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Getting voltage is only half the solution. You have to verify with a click and a look. They wear in strange places and yes the voltage is there but the plunger still does not come up to allow fuel in.
'Ay, but the pump will still pull fuel in the IN bolt and pump fuel out the OUT bolt. Regardless of 12v or not.
yeah ive also looked and its getting the click and volts i gave in and took her to a shop ... yay this is going to hurt my pockets
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ever seen this? 1984 jetta was for sale on Craigs back in the day .
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii563/hillfolkvwdude/null-44.jpg)
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii563/hillfolkvwdude/null-46.jpg)
Lol.
Yea pumps hurt but its the heart also. Once they are good they last a long time with clean fuel
Sootys pump took a crap like yours probably about 1000 mi after returning it to service.