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General Information => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: jhax on January 05, 2013, 07:04:22 pm
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Hello all, I am having an issue getting my car to start. Over the past month or so the problem has gotten consistently worse. When I bought the car and a long time after it would fire up, no problems. Within the past month it has taken longer to crank and finally fire. Today I got in my car to go to an interview and tried to start it. Glow plug relay clicked and I tried to tap the throttle as I had been for the past month, no luck. Shut it off turned key to ACC click crank no start. Progressively I have had to try two or three times before I could get it to fire but this time no avail. I checked voltage across the injectors and get an even 12V across the board. The glow plug fuse checked out too. I checked the fuel rail at both ends in the process of removing and inspecting the plugs and there is fuel on both ends as well as fuel at the tops of the injectors. I took #4 plug out and it seemed fine, little bit of white at the tip, but didnt seem bad. I then proceeded to take out the other plugs and found an issue. Plug #2 seemed fine as well but plugs #1 and #3 were soaked in oil.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8234/8350779105_4d949996fb_b.jpg)
Any input as to what else could be wrong?
Thank You,
Justin
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Ive taken a glow plug and direct wired it to see if it glows or not. If you have voltage at them the most likely solution is a bad plug or two..or three...
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Ja, I use jumper cables on each GP. Watch yer fingers...
The oily ones are likely shot - good ones burn off the oil.
More info on the engine might be good: miles, previous work done, compression readings, etc.
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Ja, I use jumper cables on each GP. Watch yer fingers...
The oily ones are likely shot - good ones burn off the oil.
More info on the engine might be good: miles, previous work done, compression readings, etc.
Thank You,
Miles: ~153k
previous work done: not sure, I have owned the car since July and have only changed the oil. It has been owned by 2 people since new, the maintenance book is in the dash compartment and it was regularly serviced by the previous owner
compression readings: not available, I need to get the proper tools.
Justin
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Well after physically testing the plugs two do not work. Time to double check the relay.
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New plugs in, problem solved. One more question, is it possible to manually adjust the fuel mixture? My car white smokes like crazy.
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If you have white smoke after the engine is up to temperature, you might need to advance the timing.
Before you start tweeking timing, I suggest a treatment with a can of Diesel Purge:
I put the DP in a clean jar and run clear lines to/from the the jar to IP in/out (plug the lines to/from the tank & filter). Run the engine high-idle until the DP is consumed.
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by in/out you are referring to the line in coming from the filter to the pump and what is the out line you are referring to? the line going from the pump back to the filter?
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Yes. The jar of DP should act as the fuel tank (without a filter). The IP wil be circulating ~1pt/min and consuming a small amount that is injected into the engine.
When the jar is nearly empty, before the IP starts sucking in air, the lines can be replaced onto the filter and the remaining DP can be dumped into the tank or saved for the next cleaning.
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will do, thank you
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you need to replace your glow plugs..
BTW, your injectors dont have any power going to them.. well, they better not atleast..
if even ONE of your glow plugs is bad, it will make your engine VERY HARD to start..
usually, once one glow plug goes out, it takes the rest with it in short order..
check your compression once you get the plugs out..
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usually, once one glow plug goes out, it takes the rest with it in short order.
Please explain...
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Yes please. What would be the reason for that?
I have learned a technique, here I think, take out the injectors and watch the glow plugs work or not.
These glow plugs have a filament coiled up and can short out to the inside wall of the pencil. They still have low resistance but don't have the hot spot near the end where the injector sprays it.
usually, once one glow plug goes out, it takes the rest with it in short order.
Please explain...
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Okay guys and gals, another problem has arisen. My alternator is not charging my battery. Below is the scenario...
Lately the belt has been squealing as im pulling out of my complex. As soon as i get to higher speeds it stops.
A couple of mornings ago i let my roommate borrow my car. She calls me at 7:30am and tells me my car wont start. I tell her to jump it. She arrives home.
I try to start it again and as it cranks, the cranking slows down until it cranks no more. I get a jump from another roommate and go to class.
Try to start my car again as im leaving from home, same problem, get a jump.
Get it home and test out my battery voltage at idle. 11.45 and slowly decreasing. Order an alternator. And have my battery tested. Battery tests fine. Replace + battery cable.
New alternator comes in, installed, starts but battery voltage is at 12.5ish.
Starts on its own twice. Drive to an interview today. Get out of interview and car wont start, get it jumped.
Get it home and voltage at alternator (+ on post going to starter, - alternator body) 12V (should be 14), held throttle open at about 2k RPM and no voltage change AT ALTERNATOR.
The whole time my alternator light is working properly (stays on at idle, turns off when i start to drive).
Turn key to ACC position and test lead to voltage regulator (0.25V), and to blue Alternator light (0V)
Take out under dash tray and trace Voltage Regulator wire (Green/Blue) to pin 11 on relay 2 (Upshift Indicator Relay) connected firmly. Take out gauge bezel housing, blue alternator wire is in securely.
The only thing I have not replaced is my battery ground wire which does look rusty.
Is there anything besides the ground wire I could be missing.
Thank You,
Justin
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Mine quit charging when I had the dash instruments out. The Red Led is part of the circuit that causes the current to flow. Not sure if you have the light on before starting and goes out when it latches.
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yes sir, that is that blue alternator wire i was talking about
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I don't have my schematic in front of me but I think the light goes out when there is 12v on both sides of the bulb (LED). If there isn't 12v going back into it there is no charge.
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Ja, that's how it works.
The bad ground is a likely culprit. Had it happen myself ( a dealership car actually) and heard many others too. I'd ensure the ground cable is cleanly connected at the engine/tranny, chassis and battery.
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Which should always be checked prior to winter as preventative maintenance ;)
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I just look at the schematic, looks like the blue wire hits a resistor and then to the LED, comes out and hits a common wire (connected to many other LEDs) and comes out as a YEL/RED wire going to fuse 21. So if i check that YEL/RED wire at the back of the plug coming out of the instrument cluster it should read 12V.
I replaced the negative batter cable tonight, just waiting for the battery to charge.
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8-V, i live in tempe az, there is no winter here. It was 55 today.
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The resistor is used to limit the current to the LED.
I bet if you put a switched battery voltage on the blue wire you will have completed the circuit. and get alternator output. Of course you will loose your battery charge light. The resistor probably drops 8 or 9 volts. Most LEDs run at 3 volts.
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Agree.
AIUI, the alt get's its initial field excitation from the 12v via the LED. After the alt develops current, it self-excites. If there is no 12V at the blue wire, the path or led is open. The field bypass above can temporarily provide initial excitation.
However...
If there is 12V at the blue wire when connected to the alt, but the alt output is low, a failing ground path from the alt to battery can keep the field coils from pulling enough current to excite, or drop the output voltage.
A jumper cable from alternator bracket to battery (-) can bypass bad ground (as a diagnostic).
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A jumper cable from alternator bracket to battery (-) can bypass bad ground (as a diagnostic).
I put one on anyway for safe measure. You can't have a good + and a crappy - and expect anything to work at any higher amperage.
Stereo guys often put the 0/0 gauge power wires from the battery to their amps, and then run a 10 gauge ground wire to the sheet metal in the trunk.. relying on all that power to go through the stock body-battery ground. Big positive, Big ground.
jhax - I wouldn't know that because your profile does not state where you are located ;) Update it at your earliest convenience please. I just assumed as usually "no start" threads at this time of year are from cold climates.
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Sorry, 8-V i changed it. So from what I understand, run the alt excite wire straight to a switched 12v in the fusebox? I charged the battery tonight, I need to work at 5:30am so Im going to conserve the battery for tonight and check again tomorrow. Thanks for all of the advice guys. I appreciate it, i wish I had the $10k i need to just get the tdi in already. anyone want to donate to the Justin's TDI Build Fund? ;D
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personally i like to run a few grounds. ground goes from neg- to trans/motor, another ground (2) from neg- to body, i like to run grounds from trans/motor to alt bracket, from alt bracket to (large) fuel filter mount studs, you can also run another from stock points trans to body, and another medium ground from neg- to another good body point. clean all contact points and you can even seal as a last step(outside engine bay). use at least 1 washer on all connections.
when doing this becareful of new found shorts, charge battery, with a helper, and ground connection snug but can slip off easily, turn key on, after a few seconds start turning things on one by one each after a few seconds, if any wire starts smoking you can slip ground strap off and fix this before you burn something up. lastly start engine and let charge w/everything on, make sure again nothing is smoking.dont forget to tighten batt connection.
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Thanks for the info. I attached the jumper cables to negative terminal on the battery and the bolt that holds the alternator to the top bracket. Held the throttle at about 1500-2000 rpms put the negative probe on my mutimeter on the negative battery terminal and the positive probe on the back of the alternator terminal going to the stater. 11.5V and dropping. *** this is irritating. Could it be possible that the refurb alternator I got is just ***?
Thanks,
Justin
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Yes please. What would be the reason for that?
I have learned a technique, here I think, take out the injectors and watch the glow plugs work or not.
These glow plugs have a filament coiled up and can short out to the inside wall of the pencil. They still have low resistance but don't have the hot spot near the end where the injector sprays it.
usually, once one glow plug goes out, it takes the rest with it in short order.
Please explain...
well, i sort of worded that wrong..
having one wont literally take out the rest, unless it is a dead short, and pops the glow plug fuse..
what i meant, is that usually when one glow plug goes out, the rest usually arent too far behind it..
its always wise to replace glow plugs in sets, unless the set in the engine is fairly new, and an injector ate the tip off of one, or something like that..
Bosch Duraterms are the shizznit btw, hands down one of the best GPs on the market today..
One of our moderators had left his on for over a half hour before, and all 4 still worked the next day!!
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One of our moderators had left his on for over a half hour before, and all 4 still worked the next day!!
This was in 2010, all still work to this date in a daily engine. They have been left on for over 45 minutes a few times.. (failing solenoid)
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One of our moderators had left his on for over a half hour before, and all 4 still worked the next day!!
This was in 2010, all still work to this date in a daily engine. They have been left on for over 45 minutes a few times.. (failing solenoid)
LMFAO...
thats just plain awesome!!
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Hi Justin have you tried putting 12 v onto the blue wire to see if your alternator will kick on.
ROR Ah yeah if one opens <gets cold> it could be a sign that the rest might not have long to live.
Not sure what I put in my car. It seems like they were for a non turbo or fast or slow.... something. I'll have to look around for some new ones as it has been two years and they are not all glowing equal brightness when I tested them. It seemed like that was all I had at the time and the car was DOA and I was recovering from Surgery,
I have a couple of Bosch 12 mm thread from my 85 mercedes are they about the same?
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Scrounger, would it be safe to run one positive jumper cable lead to the battery and the other to the pos post on the battery? I do have some wire I could use should i use the wire instead?
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one positive jumper cable lead to the battery and the other to the pos post on the battery?
eh?
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Similar to running the negative battery cable from the alternator body to the negative battery terminal for that extra ground someone suggested on here.
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Yes but why would you want to run a positive from the battery back to the positive on the battery? Re-read your post, it doesn't quite make full sense lol.
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Touche salesman, sorry its been a long day. I mean a positive jumper cable lead from the + post on the battery and the other end to the alt excite wire on the alternator?
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That is fine, long days are all to common. This would always excite the alt no? I do not know if this would have any adverse affects or not.
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I do not know, but thinking about it. Isnt the existing alt excite wire already a switched 12V? You switch the key to the acc position, electricity flows from the battery to the alternator and thusly, the excite wire and on through to the diode...correct? Or is there something different about the actual switched 12V circuit that goes to th fuse box?
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Okay, update. I took my inst cluster out and measured voltage at the YEL/RED wire coming out of the cluster (supposedly the other end of that LED). And I got 0.12V or so with the key in the ACC position. What does this tell you?
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It means that you have an open. I think it should have ~12 V on it. What is it in run?
I had taken my dash out and not properly plugged it in. The light didn't work
but the car didn't charge either
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I think there was a separate lead that was loose.
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My Bentley shows Y/R is the switched 12V from the switch via F21. The wire downstream from the indicator LED should be blue (leading to the D+ terminal on the Alt).
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TylerDurden, the blue wire is the input, which read 0V. The Y/R wire is the output wire that goes from the blue wire to the LED and then from the LED to the upshift relay. So what youre saying is that the blue input wire TO the LED should read 12V when the key is in the ACC position?
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I would expect to see ~12V at the Y/R wire with the key in the ON position, engine not running (LED illuminated ). I would also expect to see ~1.5V at the BL wire, since the LED will pass a small voltage (provided the cluster is plugged-in) .
Once the Alternator kicks-in, it provides 14V at the D+ terminal and it keeps the current from flowing through the LED (no illumination).
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alright well my plan for tomorrow is to take the car to o'riley and take out the alternator in the parking lot and have them bench test it. If it proves faulty. Get it replaced, if not i guess my only options are to first run a ground wire from the body of the alt to the negative battery post and if that doesnt work snip the end of the blue wire that goes to the dash and plug it into somewhere on the relay box that is 12V switched.
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Okay, i just got back from testing it and here are the results...
ACC position:
BLU: 0V Y/R: 1.5V
Idling after throttle (LED shuts off):
BLU: 11.6V Y/R: 11.6V
ACC (after shutting the car off and turning it back to position):
BLU:1.5V Y/R:12V (thinking it may be some residual left in the system, if there is such a thing)
Point being, the circuit is working and it seems like the alt excite wire is not faulty. So this leaves me with two options, grounding issue and or bad alternator. Input, thoughts, feelings, general outlooks on life? Thank you guys for the help by the way, i really do appreciate it.
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If the LED lights up, then shuts off when the engine is running, the circuit between F21 and the alternator is likely OK.
If there is only ~12V at the battery terminals with the engine running and the LED off, the alternator is failing, or grounding path is resistive. Should be 13.5V-14.2V.
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Testing your car at midnight, impressive.
I would say that the alternator is kaput. Hope you can get it going.
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Watch out for curve-balls...
I went out yesterday to test my 89 and validate my understanding, but the battery was dead.
Same symptoms as the OP... even heard the belt squeal oddly a few days ago.
I changed the regulator ( I keep spares from cores). But there was no change, no charge.
Today I was starting to replace the alternator and discovered this:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-JFP-THCzgb8/UQVIeGSC_GI/AAAAAAAAA9c/e4ptbnJKDbg/s800/IMG_9226.JPG)
Old, stiff insulation can keep the wire in the ring-terminal's collar, especially when the strain-relief is so close. There was enough broken wire touching the ring-terminal to light the LED, but not enough to energize the field. ::)
I replaced the ring-terminal and all is well.
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try fixing the problem you have with your belt squeeling. Had similar issues until i got rid of my ac.
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Scrounger, god damn right haha! when you have a car that is so simple you can take out the cluster in 10 minutes it makes life easy. I just want to be absolutely clear, our alternators are alternators right? not generators, therefor the voltage regulator is inside the alternator not outside. I will drive my car to o'riley today and take out the alternator to get it bench tested. I ordered another one and it will get here in 7 days.
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...therefor the voltage regulator is inside the alternator not outside...
Many older alternators had external regulators. My '85 dodge ram has an alternator external regulator, it's mounted on the firewall.
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Turns out the vws have alternators (regulators included). Anyway, I took the car to the auto parts store today to get the alternator tested and it tested fine. So i guess its down to a grounding issue.
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Scrounger, god damn right haha! when you have a car that is so simple you can take out the cluster in 10 minutes it makes life easy. I just want to be absolutely clear, our alternators are alternators right? not generators, therefor the voltage regulator is inside the alternator not outside. I will drive my car to o'riley today and take out the alternator to get it bench tested. I ordered another one and it will get here in 7 days.
VW hasnt used generators since the 60s..
generators make their own power without being energized..
Alternators, wether they have internal or external regulators, need to be excited before they will charge..
VW has NEVER, that im aware of, used an external regulator pack..
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I am about ready to punch a baby. Alternator tested fine. I spent 2 hours adding 2 ground wires, one from the alt body to where the battery ground wire bolts to the trans housing. And another from the ground battery cable to the stud where the washer bottle nut holds the washer bottle in place. And STILL NO CHANGE! I still am not getting any voltage from my alternator to my battery.
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why don't you try jumping from the battery to the alternator blue wire. Actually just from the Red to the blue.
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Let's be sure: the ignition switch is in the ON (run) position, but engine not running.
Meter between battery neg and blue at D+ terminal should be ~1.5V. LED illuminated.
Meter between battery neg and big red at B+ terminal should be ~12V.
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Let's be sure: the ignition switch is in the ON (run) position, but engine not running.
Meter between battery neg and blue at D+ terminal should be ~1.5V. LED illuminated.
Meter between battery neg and big red at B+ terminal should be ~12V.
Meter between battery neg and blue at D+ terminal is 1.25V.
Meter between battery neg and big red at B+ terminal is ~11.8V (drove to the grocery store and back)
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PS I tightened the *** out of the belt. At first i wasnt sure how the damn thing tightened and i realized the slot on the bracket below the alternator. It it a combination of tightening both the bolt on the tensioner and on the rad side of the bracket so the pulley is parallel with the AC pulley and tight. I believe squeaking can be caused by the pulley not being parallel.
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I may have had an apostrophe, lightning has just struck my brain. So that whole bit about tightening the two bolts in the right pattern? order? So that the belt does not squeak. After doing some adjustments, the belt didnt squeak as much and I got a charge! I drove around with the AC on high and high beams on. Pulled back in my space and it read 11.8v but as soon as I turned all accessories off it held steady at 12.5-12.8V. Turned the car off and held at 12.6V so the pulley adjustments seemed to have worked. The real test is to go to school and my job interviews and safely make it home without jumper cables. So my next question is, is there a procedure for adjusting the tension on the belt? Tighten one bolt all the way before the other? Tighten each one little by little?
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Apostrophe. ;D
Hrmmmm... 12.6 is too low for alternator output to maintain the charge. It should be at least 13.5V.
I usually tighten the idler pulley locking nut (17mm) finger tight, so the post won't rock, then tighten the 13mm tensioning bolt just until I can't turn the alternator fan by pushing it with my thumb. Then, I snug the locking nut pretty good, which can add a smidge more tension.
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if you have plenty of ground and alt checks out then check charging wire. you need to read above 13.5 to get a good charge. you can get a red wire and run it from alt bolt to battery or starter.
check also if you have a ground connection in the back of alt that its hooked up as well.
you dont want alt belt too tight, about tight enough so alt will barely turn by hand.(turn by pressing on fan).
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Hrmmmm... 12.6 is too low for alternator output to maintain the charge. It should be at least 13.5V.
Yes,but if accu is bad then you have that.If you can put good accu read again.
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Assuming that your gauge is reasonably accurate, why are you not getting the full voltage. Has it come up after driving? Do you have your glow plugs stuck on? They could draw the full output nearly of your alternator. Perhaps another short maybe a ghetto blaster stereo.
I may have had an apostrophe, lightning has just struck my brain. So that whole bit about tightening the two bolts in the right pattern? order? So that the belt does not squeak. After doing some adjustments, the belt didnt squeak as much and I got a charge! I drove around with the AC on high and high beams on. Pulled back in my space and it read 11.8v but as soon as I turned all accessories off it held steady at 12.5-12.8V. Turned the car off and held at 12.6V so the pulley adjustments seemed to have worked. The real test is to go to school and my job interviews and safely make it home without jumper cables. So my next question is, is there a procedure for adjusting the tension on the belt? Tighten one bolt all the way before the other? Tighten each one little by little?
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Well the belt still squeaks under load. So ill go out and go through the tensioning process tylerdurden mentioned and ill update.
Justin
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If its tensioned and still squeaks you either need a new belt.. or to dress the pully's.
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So i went with tylerdurdens method and back to square one, absolutely no charge, damn it, i drove parked and started it several times today. Im letting the battery charge now, i alternated tightening both bolts. If i needed to loosen one slightly for fine tuned adjustments, which one is best to loosen?
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The 13mm bolt adjusts the tension, the 17mm nut locks the idler post position.
I find that if the the idler post nut (17mm) is too slack, the belt will tighten more than i want after adjusting the tensioner and snugging the post.
So, I keep the 17mm nut finger-tight or tighter, to keep the post perpendicular to the belt, since the tensioner has significant mechanical advantage to move the post.
A 17mm box-wrench is my choice for the idler post, a 13mm flex-head gear-wrench is handy for the tensioner bolt.
But, I don't think tension is the primary problem. Connections are 90% of all electrical issues, in my experience (automotive and otherwise).
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Alright, so I guess ill get a new wire going, one end will be an eye connector bolted to the alternator to battery B+ and the other a spade connector to the indicator light out. Does that sound kosher?
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I would perform a test first, just using a clip-lead or small jumper. It only needs to be connected momentarily... after the alternator is producing current, it should self excite.
I would:
Ensure the B+ cable has 12V at the alternator
Put a DMM on the battery terminals
Start the car
Clip the jumper from the B+ to the D+
Rev the engine once to 1500-2000rpm
If the DMM indicates >13.5, unclip the jumper and verify continued output. If good, alternator is ok... trace the blue wire for internal breaks.
If the DMM indicates no charging, O'reilly may have botched the bench test.
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I would perform a test first, just using a clip-lead or small jumper. It only needs to be connected momentarily... after the alternator is producing current, it should self excite.
I would:
Ensure the B+ cable has 12V at the alternator
Put a DMM on the battery terminals
Start the car
Clip the jumper from the B+ to the D+
Rev the engine once to 1500-2000rpm
If the DMM indicates >13.5, unclip the jumper and verify continued output. If good, alternator is ok... trace the blue wire for internal breaks.
If the DMM indicates no charging, O'reilly may have botched the bench test.
Okay sir, here are the results...
Took the battery off the charger.
12.4V battery terminals
12.36V negative batt terminal to pos post on alt
Key on ACC
11.4V batt terminals
Car start and idle
11.43V (lots of belt squealing, rev throttle until no more squeaking)
Attach jumper wire (one end post terminal alt another attached on blue alt excite wire spade connector), blip throttle
11.83V batt terminals
So perhaps botched bench test...
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Something is not right. The belt squealing indicates to me that the alternator is powering up (Developing voltage and amperage). Is the wire that goes from your alternator to the battery good or perhaps a loose or open connection. Might measure the voltage at the main alternator terminal. Keep your hands free of the belt. Is there something else loading down your system. Like a stuck glow relay?
Of course the alternator might be weak too.
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I have been measuring the voltage at the terminal ON THE BACK of the alternator the whole time, never at the starter. Even at the terminal (B+) i am not getting an output voltage higher than what the battery is.
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As for the glow plug relay, the LED shuts off indicating that the relay is shutting off? I can measure the voltage going to the glow plugs via the black wire that connects to the copper strip going to the plugs?
Justin
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The yellow indicator is a timer indicator, not the actual voltage to the GPs.
After the engine is running for 30-60 sec, check the GP buss for voltage. Any point on the GP buss should do as a test-point.
A stuck GP relay could drag down the voltage. Plus, the original issue was burned out GPs, so the relay could be bad.
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This is getting interesting. I had forgotten that you started with bad gps.
What about taking off the wires from the alternator. Carefully tape them up so they don't short out on the chassis. Remove the battery ground while you do it. Start the car and again measure right at the alternator like you did earlier.
Sometimes cheap meters (mine included) do not work well on pulsating DC, it confuses them because of their extremely high impedance but could be worth a test. That way you would remove all other loads.
Of course you may have a bum alternator but that would be odd with it being refurbished and then tested on a machine which should load it.
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Please explain to me where this glow plug buss is?
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The buss is sometimes called a buss bar. It is the strip of copper that connect all 4 glowplugs together.
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What about taking off the wires from the alternator. Carefully tape them up so they don't short out on the chassis. Remove the battery ground while you do it. Start the car and again measure right at the alternator like you did
Not a good idea to run the alternator without the battery attached.
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So if i get a voltage after the light turns off at the buss my relay is brokeded. Is there a safer way to run a test on the alternator without a load?
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You might meter the battery and watch the voltage.
Watch the meter and GP indicator... key off: battery is ~12V...
key on (engine not running) : the voltage drops... after a few seconds, the led will extinguish... after roughly 20sec the voltage should jump up as the GP relay clicks off.
If the voltage does not rise after ~30sec, the relay is likely sticking.
If the engine is warm, you can unplug the GP relay (or disconnect the fuse or wire) and run the engine the see if the voltage is in the proper range.
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well im pretty sure my multimeter is dead (constantly reads -0.00V no matter what) GAHHHH god hates me. Until tomorrow.
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My meters have a battery that dies expectantly or the fuse blows when I forget to change the amp scale.
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Okay sir, here are the results...
Took the battery off the charger.
12.4V battery terminals
12.36V negative batt terminal to pos post on alt
Key on ACC
11.4V batt terminals
Car start and idle
11.43V (lots of belt squealing, rev throttle until no more squeaking)
Attach jumper wire (one end post terminal alt another attached on blue alt excite wire spade connector), blip throttle
11.83V batt terminals
So perhaps botched bench test...
[/quote]
Looking at this again, it would seem that the glow plug relay IS the problem, there really is no other explanation.
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There's no other explanation we have thought of yet... but a hanging relay would be consistent with all the symptoms and events described, including the burned-out GPs.
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Well i just bought a new one from GAP so hopefully it will be here soon.
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Good thing to replace regardless, it handles a lot of current.. so its good for it to be in working order :)
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So the relay was sticking on? I missed that. Last I heard was the multimeter was sour and you were getting another one.
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So the relay was sticking on? I missed that. Last I heard was the multimeter was sour and you were getting another one.
I do not think it was confirmed, but a new GP relay is a good idea regardless.
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8-V, correct. This is my daily so I need it going reliaby asap. The relay shipped from NY today so hopefully it get here soon.
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Running the engine until it is a bit warmed then unplugging the relay would ensure easy testing. Just taking my word and that of others doesn't really build the confidence of what is going on.
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you just have to start it up, pull relay, by the time you pull relay it will run. if you dont have a good charge, belt will still squeal until you have a charge. then check with multi-meter.
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you are in AZ and order from NY with AutohausAZ in your state? I don't understand.
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D'oh...i completely forgot, I thought i already looked at their site and couldnt find it. Turns out the site was MJM autohaus that didnt have it. See what senior year of college is doing to me. Increasing my ADD levels tenfold. Oh well, thanks for pointing that out though.
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Well turns out its cheaper to get it from GAP than AAZ anyway. And without a job, money counts.
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So perusing through vortex and found a build thread on a mk2 with an S2 engine and I got to thinking, why is it we dont see more gasoline powered turbo cars with VVTs? Is there an advantage of using standard turbos on gassers and VVTs with turbo diesel vehicles?
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FWIW, the GP relay can be tested without a DMM by using a test-light (or 12V LED from the shack). It's actually a good idea to just install the LED in the dash to always know when/if the GPs are getting power.
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Hi TD:
Could you outline the GP relay circuit that can drive a LED rather than just monitor the timing circuit?
Do you mean that you can plug a LED into an empty LED slot in the dash display?
TKS
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I'm too lazy to add an led into the cluster, or to mod the relay.
I just put long leads on a 12V amber LED and mount it somewhere convenient in the dash. (E.g.: The blank plugs in the MK2 dash (where optional switches might go) are handy and can be modded or replaced in minutes.) I connect the leads between the GP buss (+) and ground. Putting a spade terminal on the (+) lead makes it easy to move from one screw to another (before fuse, after fuse, etc.)
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so i bought a cheapie dmm and i turned it on and it blew up on me, guess im waiting until tuesday
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I may have had an apostrophe, lightning has just struck my brain. So that whole bit about tightening the two bolts in the right pattern? order? So that the belt does not squeak. After doing some adjustments, the belt didnt squeak as much and I got a charge! I drove around with the AC on high and high beams on. Pulled back in my space and it read 11.8v but as soon as I turned all accessories off it held steady at 12.5-12.8V. Turned the car off and held at 12.6V so the pulley adjustments seemed to have worked. The real test is to go to school and my job interviews and safely make it home without jumper cables. So my next question is, is there a procedure for adjusting the tension on the belt? Tighten one bolt all the way before the other? Tighten each one little by little?
tighten the long belt, the one that drives the a/c pump and water pump..
then, after that belt is tight, go ahead and tighten the alternator belt..
you MUST tension the long belt first..
if you tighten the alternator belt first, then go to tighten the a/c belt, it will just untension the alternator belt..
what are these 2 bolts you speak of? there are only 2 bolts holding the alternator to the engine, neither one adjusts the alignment of the pulleys.. one bolt is the pivot bolt, and the other is the tension bolt..
the a/c compressor is held on by 4 bolts, 2 pivot bolts, and 2 tensioner bolts..
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tighten the long belt, the one that drives the a/c pump and water pump..
then, after that belt is tight, go ahead and tighten the alternator belt..
you MUST tension the long belt first..
if you tighten the alternator belt first, then go to tighten the a/c belt, it will just untension the alternator belt..
Correct.
what are these 2 bolts you speak of? there are only 2 bolts holding the alternator to the engine, neither one adjusts the alignment of the pulleys.. one bolt is the pivot bolt, and the other is the tension bolt..
Well, it does not pivot, on the MK2 w/ AC...
The alternator is held in a fixed-position by a long bolt on the bottom and a short bolt on top.
The two bolts for positioning the idler pulley control the belt tension:
Loosen nut "A" slightly.
Tighten bolt "B" (moving the idler pulley toward the radiator) until the belt holds the alternator fan from slipping when pushing with a thumb, .
Tighten bolt "A".
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2h1s7c2abAE/UQx86nZ2hRI/AAAAAAAAA90/ZKwtji0Zh88/s800/bracket-annotated.jpg)
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yeah i understand now. touche TD, im definitely a visual learner.
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Well, in that case...
To follow up on ROR's comment to tension the AC compressor first:
Loosen nuts X and Y
Tighten tensioner-bolt Z (partially hidden behind the bracket) until the AC belt is deflected only 1/2" with a firm push midway along the belt.
Tighten nuts X and Y
Then proceed to tighten the alternator belt, as in post above.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NyOkt-HznQE/UQyFaDOsdfI/AAAAAAAAA-I/1xMEVVtehd0/s800/bracket-annotated-2.jpg)
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my AC compressor is good, thanks though
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WTF!!
why couldnt they have just used the alt to tension the belt, like on a gasser?!
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My 88 uses the alternator to tension the belt.
W/ PS Wo/ AC
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Alright guys got my relay today and put it in. Drove 3 miles to class and had to jump it again, drove back to the store and had to jump it in the parking lot. At this point I think its the fact that the alternator hasnt had enough time to charge the battery to start on its own. If only I had a ***ing multimeter damn it. I think ill go into the lab i research in tomorrow and try to figure out my old one's problem. I noticed the fuse had blown so ill take the fuse from the ***ty one i bought and switch it into the old one.
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The fuses can blow if it is in current measuring mode and the max value is exceeded. (like probing battery or glow terminals in current mode, instead of voltage mode)
Usually, we only need to measure voltage around the charging system.
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i can see that, on another note when I first started the car the belt did not squeal at all. However it did squeal a lot upon downshifting when coming upon a stop light. Any idea what thats about?
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When you clutched the RPM's came down enough to introduce enough resistance on the alt to start the belt spinning. It didnt squeal at higher RPM's because the alt was not workin near as hard to supply the power.
I had this same issue with a lot of load and a loose belt. Would squeal as soon as the revs came down, and then I could turn it all off and it would stop squealing. Get back up to speed, turn the accessories back on.. lol What a pain.
You clearly have major issues still.. I am assuming this was mid day and there was no accessories on.. the battery should run the injection pump alone for hours and hours.
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When you clutched the RPM's came down enough to introduce enough resistance on the alt to start the belt spinning. It didnt squeal at higher RPM's because the alt was not workin near as hard to supply the power.
I had this same issue with a lot of load and a loose belt. Would squeal as soon as the revs came down, and then I could turn it all off and it would stop squealing. Get back up to speed, turn the accessories back on.. lol What a pain.
You clearly have major issues still.. I am assuming this was mid day and there was no accessories on.. the battery should run the injection pump alone for hours and hours.
This was at 7pm. The brights were on because i only have one headlight with low beams. I had no other accessories besides the headlights. When i parked in the parking lot I turned the fan on high and watched for any dimming of the headlights and there was no such dimming. So that being said, the only thing I have not changed is the wire going from B+ on alternator to the starter. Other than that is there any other things I should check?
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Well if the belt is slipping, the alternator is trying to charge. So it is working properly. The alt belt will not slip if there is no load.
If all you had on were the head lights and it slipped.. either the belt is now extremely worn, still loose, or there is an extreme load. Have you verified the GP's are not causing this? After you get it started unplug the GP relay and see whats up.
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I bought a brand new GP relay and put it in today so im kind of going on faith at this point. I have phyically inspected my belt and it doesnt show signs of ware, it feels firm and tight, there is no dry rotting, no missing teeth, etc. Ill give your unplugging suggestion a shot. But doesnt it make sense that the alternator just didnt have enough time to charge the battery in the 3 miles i drove?
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How did you get it started the first time? Highs on is only 16A, and charging the battery up from a start shouldn't be an issue for a (new alt isnt it?) new 65A alternator.
The belt is squealing for two reasons. It is slipping, because there is load there. It does not squeal free-wheeling the alt.
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I had it on my trickle charge for a couple of hours yesterday. 90amp alt, I have A/C
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Nothing wrong with faith/ you did test the gp relay by disconnecting it though right? Much better than dumping money. Since you have a new one that should be no reason to test it really. Perhaps it was money better spent replacing the headlight or fixing your charging system.
Are you running the AC? It runs loads the same belt as the Alternator, no?
3 miles (4minutes) may not be enough to replenish a battery. How many hours did you run the trickle charger? over night? is your battery DOA?
I like the comment about current testing rather than voltage testing. Sounds like someone is shorting wires to see if there is a spark. Funny really.
You have been reactive to some suggestions but I don't think you have a real understanding of what is going on. You have no test equipment any more. It is a simple problem. Maybe instead of just throwing parts at it you would be wise to consult a mechanic. I am not saying this with harshness.
I bought a brand new GP relay and put it in today so im kind of going on faith at this point. I have phyically inspected my belt and it doesnt show signs of ware, it feels firm and tight, there is no dry rotting, no missing teeth, etc. Ill give your unplugging suggestion a shot. But doesnt it make sense that the alternator just didnt have enough time to charge the battery in the 3 miles i drove?
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I think buying a simple multi meter and test light would be a good start. Those are tools you should have for cars and around the house, so it won't be one time use or waste of your money.
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Yup. Cheapie DMMs are good to keep in the trunk, a better one for in the shop.
A squeal when downshifting is common, since the inertia of the alternator momentarily backdrives the belt, regardless of load.
Depending on how much cranking it takes to start the engine, it could take more than a few minutes to replenish a good battery - a marginal battery just adds to misery when charging or discharging.
A mech is not needed at this point, IMO... knowing the battery voltage when stopped and running is.
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Oh trust me i know, i have all of my tools in my back hatch all 24/7. I have the DMM in front of me now in class and Im going to take it to the lab after class and try to fix it (soldering stuff). On a side note, I was told by someone that there are mechanics who wont even touch VWs because they are so complicated...I found this confusing as i think the contrary. I usually let the battery charge for a couple of hours (until it got up to 12.4V when I had a working DMM).
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^
^
^
Yeah! Multimeters are cheap, too
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My version of lead battery 101:
Let your battery charge over night. Make it push closer to 13.5-14v while on the charger. Each cell on a new battery will be about 2.2 volts fully charged, since you can not measure the voltage of each cell you should measure across the terminals, A good battery will usually be about 13.2 fully charged. After over night charging, take off the leads, let it sit for 15 minutes and measure the voltage. It should be about 13 volts. 12.6 is a sign of trouble.
If you hook your (4-15 amp) battery charger to a low but otherwise good battery it should accept nearly the maximum amperage of the charger for some time maybe 2 hours gradually reducing. If the amperage goes down to a trickle in 20 minutes the battery is shot. Probably has at least one bad cell.
If your battery charger is say 2 amps, a trickle charger, it is designed to be left on for long periods of time. Many of the newer chargers are considered smart. They have a voltage regulator in them similar to the one in the alternator, They cut out when the voltage gets up to full charge for a typical battery.
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SUCCESS!! I bought myself a multimeter today, jump started the car and took it around the block and popped the hood. 14+V at idle. Unfortunately the belt slips horrendously under load (AC full blast, brights on, etc) and doesnt charge.
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Told you. lol ;)
New belt, and possibly some new pullies.. or at least dress those ones.
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Oh happy day! I think ill let the battery charge up all the way tonight if I can, roommates arent too happy with my frivolous electric usage. Now that I havent driven in a while and taken free public transportation, i think Ill be driving my car less at least for a while until it starts getting around 100holy *** degrees again. That way I can save $45-50 a month and start collecting parts for my build. Thank you again guys for all of your help. Ill definitely stick around for a long time.
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new members get pink dresses on their pulleys.
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Congrats, jhax!
The alternator should be able to maintain ~14V under all loads, so some refinement may be in your future.
Keep us posted on any developments/results if you work on the pulleys, etc.
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P.S. To be more precise... the alternator should output ~14V under full load at typical operating speeds. It is common to drop voltage a bit at idle.
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Ill get it squared away soon enough. One thing I have noticed though, when the engine is warm and I try to start the engine right up the new relay has a tendency to click several times before it starts. Not sue what thats about.
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Sounds like a loose wire some place that is allowing the circuit to trip on and off quickly.
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Only while cranking though?
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Maybe the sender is the problem. It is trying to tell the relay that the engine is cold rather than hot and now that you have a relay you can hear above the starter you notice it. Lots of shaking going on under that hood on start-up you know.
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'Ay matey, we still be on the scurvy path.
The side of the head, there is a coolant neck, in that coolant neck is a sensor. It likely has a female spade on it, unplug that. You will have to manually time out the glow-plug light, 10 seconds is usually enough for me up here in -10F.. so anything around there should be good.
See if the problem persists. If it does not, the sensor is bad. Get a new one.
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G'yarr that be true, it be one thing after another. Oh well cant be as expensive as the ***ing alternator.
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Okay seriously now...What the ***!?! Drive my car to and form class last night. Go to start it just now and the bastard doesnt even crank. It was running smooth, great, fantastic, no problems. And then all of a sudden, no crank AT ALL. What gives? My thoughts go straight to the ignition switch. I have battery voltage at the battery and the starter.
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My thoughts go straight to the ignition switch. I have battery voltage at the battery and the starter.
Agree.
If you are stranded, you can hotwire the starter. Trans must be in neutral.
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Yup. Put 12v to the smaller wire on the starter WITH THE CAR IN NEUTRAL!. If it cranks this way, you are looking at more than likely the ignition switch.
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Well the starter turns when i hot wire it but my battery voltage is too low to start the engine. So it looks like a new ignition switch is in order.
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What??
Does the low battery voltage not throw a red flag up here?? If you just drove it.. the battery should be at least more than enough charged to start the car..
A bad ignition switch did not cause this, yes it may be bad as well.. but apparently your alternator is still not working.
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The battery was at high 11V. Every time I had driven before this the belt would squeal indicating the alternator was working. And when I was having the glow plug issue the engine would always crank. So it seems like its the ignition switch is gone When I get a new switch is the charging problem persists ill just exchange the alternator again.
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Anything under 12V at rest is considered "fully discharged", how old is your battery? Maybe it has just bitten the dirt.
Were you having a belt squeal on your last two trips??
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I do not know how old the battery is. It came with the car, I think i may have stated before that it seems to have come from a junk yard, has GOOD written in marker on the side of it. Also has a date scratched on the top cover. I took the battery to o'rilley back when the problem originally started and the tech said it checked out. I will have to wait to get a battery until my tax return comes. I would like my next battery to be light weight, small and gel cell. My problem is that I am unsure if that particular battery will have the cold cranking amps to start my car. I am also planning on doing a 1.9 ALH swap in the future which would be more of a challenge for a smaller battery to start it. I used a wheelchair battery to start my AWP 1.8t swapped car. Would anyone have any suggestions for these small gel celled batteries? I have heard that DEKA dominates, is there anything else that can be used?
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Do you have frequent 32F weather during the winter in Tempe? If you didn't need the CCA then I'd say a small Gel-Cell would suffice even with the ALH (which will require the same cranking amps), probably less even.. as the Glow Plugs will not need to be used unless it is less than 32F out...
I have had batteries test good, and still be siht.
I think you need to have the starter tested and or replaced as well as the starter bushing.
Bad bushing, wrecks starter, kills battery, kills alt... vicious circle
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Don't skimp on a battery if you want it to last. One of the worst things that happens to batteries is that the are discharged past say 50%. Keeping the battery near fully charged is much better for it. A bigger battery usually lasts longer than a smaller one.
I thought you had mentioned that your battery tested good. I guess that really meant that someone in a salvage yard had written "good" on it with a grease pencil. And then it got run flat a dozen times, killing off any "good" that was left in it.
Learn by this.
Did I read that the belt still chattering? If so you car is not fixed.
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It only chirps from the time it kicks on until it warms up then its fine. And only at night.
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It only chirps from the time it kicks on until it warms up then its fine. And only at night.
That's common, but not necessarily typical.
I'd load-test the battery (shops will test for free) and keep an eye the alternator output.
I'll occasionally put long leads on a DMM and run it into the cabin for a temporary voltmeter, to watch battery and charging behavior for a few days.
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I personally just replace the battery at this point, as it needs it anyhow. Get a big Group 34, or even one from a 2000-2005?? F-150.
Should be very common, and is commonly 1000+ CA. I have three of these F-150 batteries in two mk1 1.9L's and a mk2 1.6TD. It spins them perfectly fast.
If it even chirps the belt when the alternator begins to charge it means the belt is too loose, or too worn.. making it too loose ;) Replace the damn belt, all of this slipping on the pulley has worn it for sure if it wasn't already toast when you started this thread.
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Yep, just as i suspected, bog ol' crack through the upper lip of the switch.
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soo something that kind of irks me. i bought this ignition switch from autohausaz.com last thursday. this company is literally 3 BLOCKS from my house, i can walk there in 10 minutes. And it takes them/UPS ground innovations 4 DAYS to ship the part to my house. I called them the last time i bought a part from them and asked if I could go there and simply pick up the part and they said no because they didnt have a store front but im sure they have a bunch of these parts in boxes in their warehouse. Ugh, i would be able to drive now if this werent the case. Okay rant over.
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well i have come to the conclusion that my car hates me...new ignition switch drive around a bit and still no charge. so im going to get a new alternator, put it on trickle charge all night, im looking at a new battery but need to get paid first http://www.tristatebattery.com/9agm48-deka-agm-exact-fit-battery-p-1321.html thats what im looking at.
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Cranking Amps 875 CA
Reserve Capacity 120 RC
Amp Hour Rate (20 Hrs) 70 Ah
Looks good to me :)
However the shotgun to kill a fly method of just throwing parts at it without seeing what the problem is will get expensive fast. Until you replace everything that is ;).
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I understand that but in all honesty I have been inspecting and probing and figuring and have had absolutely no luck, alternator tested good, battery tested good, alt excite wire getting voltage on both sides and LED lights up, new glow plug relay, new glow plugs, what else could there possibly be besides the battery and the belt?
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Well if the alt tested good why replace it? If the battery still starts the car after you charge it and it holds that charge.. why replace it?
When the car is running and the alternator is turning it is not showing 13v + at the big alt stud or the battery??
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Correct, I would replace the alt because it has a 1 year warranty, the battery because I hate lead acid batteries, i much prefer gel cell or dry cell batteries. And just to reiterate, no charge at battery OR alternator post.
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So you have a slipping belt and you are trying to fix it with a new alternator and battery.
When you get done could you start buying parts for my car? ;)
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Ouch.
A definitive diagnosis on the belt would be to tighten the belt and verify >13.5V.
If it still does not charge, there is still a lurking problem.
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I would not at all be surprised to find the battery is trashed after so many deep discharge cycles. A car battery that is older already has its head in the noose, letting it go completely dead a half dozen times in a short period will kick the stool out from under it.
The battery test that was done was much earlier in this thread, there have been quite a number of complete discharge incidents since the battery test at this point. I'd be cautious of that battery for sure. Also remember that the battery testers at the parts stores are often primarily used to decline warranty claims by showing the battery is "good", even if it is down to a fraction of its "new" performance. I also have had a battery before with an intermittent short in one cell - giving it a firm tap on the top would cause the voltage to go from 12.something to 10.something. When unshorted it would pass the test, when shorted it would fail. So those tests are in no way conclusive (well unless they say it is bad, then it probably is)
Anyhow, if it were me, I'd do these tests in this order:
#1. Verify >13.5V between the big post on the alternator and the alternator case itself. If not, stop here for further diagnosis with the alternator itself.
#2. Measure from the CENTER of the positive battery terminal to the center of the big post on the alternator with the engine running. You should measure < 0.2V or so - the closer to zero the better. Anything more means there is a voltage drop occurring somewhere along the way, be it the ring terminal on the alternator, the charging wire from the alternator to the battery, the positive battery cable or even the battery post clamp. If using an analog meter use a low voltage scale (1.5V) and put the positive on the alternator.
#3. Measure from the CENTER of the negative battery terminal to the case of the alternator with the engine running. You should measure < 0.2V or so - the closer to zero the better. Anything more means there is a voltage drop occurring somewhere in your grounds, or the negative battery cable, or the battery post clamp.
If all 3 of the above tests pass then your charging system is functioning fine.
It is not a bad idea to quickly hit the center of the battery post with a drill (even just by hand) and make a very good clean shiny spot, then put a blob of vaseline on it. That way you will have a clean un-oxidized test point to use your meter on.
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So i started my car tonight after work and noticed with out the headlights on the alt indicator light remained on (dim but on) constantly. So ill buy a new belt tomorrow and change out the alternator.
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My light stays on as well with no load on the alt.. weird. Mine is a 120A on an AHU.
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well the light remained on under load too not just without load
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Have you driven your car with the AC off? Does the belt squeal with it off.
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i havent used AC in a long time. i started and drove the car today, the belt didnt squeal at all. checked the voltage while at idle and it read 14.6V no issues this time, i will drive to school today and see what happens, i bought a new belt today just in case.
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so I tried to change the belt with no success, I cant get the pivot bolt for the AC condenser next to the block to loosen. Sprayed it with WD40 and no luck, the #8 L shaped hex wrench wont cut it.
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I hate those hex wrenches. I use hex sockets. 3/8 inch drive with the properly sized hex on the end. Allows better control and more torque delivered. Get a set you will love em.
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Yeah I was thinking about that. Fortunately I went to a local aircooled shop in town and gave them my ALH crank to polished and one of the mechanics busted out his breaker bar and got it free.
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Proper tools save time and knuckles
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i havent used AC in a long time. i started and drove the car today, the belt didnt squeal at all. checked the voltage while at idle and it read 14.6V no issues this time, i will drive to school today and see what happens, i bought a new belt today just in case.
14.6 at idle is ok, a little high actually. Check with another meter as it may be off. If you grab the alt fan and can turn it against the belt, it is too loose.
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I just changed out the new belt. Going to drive it to work. Im pretty sure that old belt was on its last legs it was pretty stretched.
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I just changed out the new belt. Going to drive it to work. Im pretty sure that old belt was on its last legs it was pretty stretched.
Are you for real?? Why was this not the first thing questioned when you were told the belt was slipping???
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Because upon first inspection it didnt look that bad but such is life, live and learn. I am almost positive everything that was replaced did need to be replaced anyway.
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Because upon first inspection it didnt look that bad but such is life, live and learn. I am almost positive everything that was replaced did need to be replaced anyway.
I am fairly positive as well from reading this thread.. haha
Congrats on having all new parts though?? ::)
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Like i said they were all needed, the glow plugs went out (new plugs), the constant cycling of the ignition over time caused the ignition switch and relay to go (would have happened anyway due to age), battery cables were shot and oxidized anyway, alternator may or may not have been good but it was original and at 150+k miles im sure it was tired anyway.
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Eh, ya got it running now. NO harm no foul. dieseljunkie, welcome.. now calm your ass.
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With all those upgrades you should be good for at least another 150K. Glad it is charging, starting and running as desired.
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thank you all for all of your input and help, i definitely hope this thread can be of use to others in the future.
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Hey all, Im bringing this one back from the dead so i didnt have to start a new thread. Some updates first, I got rid of the AC, all of it including the compressor. I swung the alternator down to where the compressor was and used the turnbuckle as a tensioner technique. I made a fast brake turn from the road I was on to a parking lot. Well this sheared the turn buckle, I purchased a new one and threw it in. I tightened the belt (new shorter belt to compensate for the lack of AC condenser) so it deflects 4-5 cm. Now for some reason the alternator isnt charging the battery. Prior to the turn buckle replacement, I had to occasionally tighten the belt because it wold squeal but once every couple weeks. The new turnbuckle is in and the belt is tight, the alt indicator will not turn off after the initial throttle blip. It turns off and comes on intermittently while driving, but will mostly stay on in the higher revs.
I was cruising in 5th today and downshifted to 4th and the light came on. So it's definitely intermittent. I have attached a video for your viewing pleasure. Towards the end is when I downshifted to 4th and the light stayed on. I have the non AC alternator pulley on the alternator giving the belt the correct distance and keeping it in line with all pulleys. No squealing and very little slack on the belt with the engine running. Any thoughts?
https://flic.kr/p/q1g9ZZ
8:20pm: Drove into town to pick up my friend, typical flickering and dull on state for the alternator indicator. Parked the car, ate dinner and drove back home. Same result a quarter way into the drive, after that, absolutely not light whatsoever on the way home. Up and down the rev range it charged. Pulled it into the driveway and measured voltage at idle, 13.15V. Mystery!?
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Your alternator is crying for a rebuild. Brushes likely worn or a wire frayed due to turning incident perhaps?
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Very possible, however, I replaced my old alternator (I got at the beginning of this thread) with this one a couple months ago. They are both O'Reilly remanned specials, I had a warrenty on the old one so I got this one fo free. But it could be that these alternatlrs are just that sh*tty. I drove to work today (on I70) and it didnt give me any trouble at all untill I got onto the off ramp when the same crap started again. Ill take it to the auto parts store today or tomorrow and have them test it. Funny how easy it is to remove these things when you don't have any AC components in the way.
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I would check the output of the alternator with a voltmeter. Also check the voltage of the blue exciter wire.
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Might want to have the alt tested too. Neither my old nor new alts ever squealed
.:Sent by pneumatic tubes
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My plan was to get the alternator tested tomorrow after work. I checked the voltages at a few places today and got some interesting numbers.
Alternator + post to ground = 11.6V (same as the battery indicating no charge)
Alternator excitor wire (plugged into alternator post) to ground = 9.6V
Alternator excitor wire (unplugged from alternator post) to ground = 11.6V (ODD)
Alternator excitor wire post (with wire unplugged from alternator post) to ground = 0.5V
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PS now the indicator doesn't turn on at key on prior to start.
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I think that means you didn't get the wires back on the alt right or the wiring to it is messed up. Get the Bentley it helps as I had issues years ago and it is fairly easy to track once you know what does what.
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Oh, you mean the one blue wire that goes from the back of the alternator (D+) to pin A2/01 and then out from U2/12 to the light? Yeah man, it's plugged in and wired correctly, if it wasnt, the car wouldnt have been charching in the first place...I have a bentley and have had one for quite some time. Now could the wire have a bad connection where it is crimped onto the spade connector? Perhaps, but it is Definitely wired correctly. Forgive me for seeming curt, but your question offended me a bit. I understand you are trying to help by thinking of all possible situations but that one is definitely covered. Thanks though. Maybe it's a sheisty alt to starter wire but like I said, I'm getting 11.6V out of the + post coming out of the back of the alternator. Maybe I can convince O'reilly to give me a new Bosch alternator since this is the 3rd one of their re-manned alternators I have had problems with.
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Alternator + post to ground = 11.6V (same as the battery indicating no charge)
Alternator excitor wire (plugged into alternator post) to ground = 9.6V
Alternator excitor wire (unplugged from alternator post) to ground = 11.6V (ODD)
Alternator excitor wire post (with wire unplugged from alternator post) to ground = 0.5V
If this with off motor,than no good,you at least have bad accu.
If this is with on motor at least you have bad regulator.
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Cool, sounds like you got it.
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Yep, alternator crapped out. Had it tested. Battery volts = 11.55 actual, lamp on volts = 11.14. Could there possibly be anything in my wiring that can cause this? I have gone through 3 of o'reilly's re-manned alternators in the past year and a half. 2 after the wiring swap. It passed the rectifier test but failed the lamp/diode trio and regulator tests. The other two when tested resulted in bad voltage regulators. This was the first time I had an alternator bench tested. The only two wires plugged into the salt are the power and exciter wires. I can't think of anything from my wiring swap that would be causing the alt to go bad.
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What brand of rebuild are they handing you across the counter. Same one everytime? Might pay to take a refund and shop NAPA.
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I just looked into it and i would pay between $50 and $150 for an alternator from either carquest or napa since I would have no core to give them. In order to get my refund I have to give oreilly my broken alternator. I guess ill keep getting oreilly crap until i get my tdi built.
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New one in, charging normal. So any thoughts on if my electrical system could be killing the alternators?
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Nope, what you're experiencing is super common for the cheap parts store rebuilds. The ONLY thing worth ever considering with alternators in my opinion is a Bosch or Valeo, either new or remanufactured BY Bosch or Valeo. All the third party ones are crap. I generally try to put at least a $30/hour value on my time and it is NOT worth going back to the parts store multiple times - that $150 becomes cheap pretty quick. Last cheap rebuild I ever bought or hopefully will ever buy ate a brush in about 20,000 km leaving me scrambling on a long road trip.
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Yeah that's what I suspected. Thanks for the tip.
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I generally try to put at least a $30/hour value on my time and it is NOT worth going back to the parts store multiple times - that $150 becomes cheap pretty quick.
I agree regarding not buying crap parts even if they have a 'lifetime warranty'. I got a set of 'rebuilt driveshafts' with a lifetime warranty which included turning in my cores. I swapped them 4 times in the next six months and then gave up and bought actual German joints...
Regarding placing a value on time, there are a couple other things to consider. One is the 'fun factor'. If I think something is fun then my $/hour cost for that type of activity can be way less. When I put on an audiobook and work on a car project that does not have a stress inducing deadline, I'm just having fun and would almost pay for that. Strand me away from home with a broken part and each stressful minute on the side of the road is VERY expensive.
One other consideration is that the old adage that 'a penny saved is a penny earned' is not even close to correct. A penny saved is more like 1.5 pennies earned. You pay the extra 0.5 penny in taxes on the pennies earned but there isn't a tax on pennies saved. To value your time at $30 per hour for things where you are saving money, you should be making $45 per hour at your 'real job' and your real job should be a similar amount of fun.
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Quite insightful indeed. Ill get a refund and replace the crap alternator for a bosch one prior to my trip to vegas in may or june. By my calculations it should fail around that time anyway. I have a week off of work for Christmas and will be changing my clutch (dont worry, I got a Sachs) and rear main (mahle) so that will definitely be a fun job. One thing I have noticed though, the furthest point between two pulleys on my car is now between the alternator and crank and when the car is idling, that belt is 'slapping' up and down quite a bit in that area. Obviously as the rpms increase it 'tightens up', the belt is about as tight as it can be (1/2" of deflection) at this point, should I opt for a slightly shorter belt, is there anything I can do to midigate slappage? Is it worth it to try? It charges fine so it's mechanically doing its thing.
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I just replace a "slapping belt" as you described with one 5 mm shorter and went from the fully extended end of the adjustment to the needs very minor adjustment on the belt. Alternator was slipping and my battery was giving slow starter performance.
4.99 and I am back in business and plenty of stretch wear available. Which I will check for after a few runs where the car can warm up under the hood.
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Well, it died sooner than later. Experiencing some harder starts lately. I think I need a new turn buckle too, I have no Idea how this belt is continually loosening but it's happening and I am not amused. Ordered the bosch reman from autohausaz today. Good news though, got the ol' tax return. Time to get the ALH head ported and polished with some new 80mm titanium valves.
Justin
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Alrighty, I am having issues snapping bolts that hold the alternator to the bracket. When I first deleted AC I just swung the alternator down and used a turn buckle as a tensioner. I believe that was one of the issues with going through alternators, they were slightly cocked from the tension placed on it by the belt, screwing up the bearings and snapping the through bolt that held the alternator to the bracket. I then rotated the alternator 180* and bolted it to the bracket using the bolt hole that is traditionally used for the tensioner bolt.
I purchased a 38 1/8" belt so it wouldnt slap around while running. After putting it on I didnt need a tensioner (turnbuckle) but now I am snapping bolts again. I bought a 38 5/8" belt today in hopes of preventing overtensioning the belt and causing the bolts to snap but it's too loose. What have you guys done? I do have a non AC alternator bracket, however I cannot get my existing bracket off due to a bolt that is tucked underneath the IP. Is there a way to get that bolt out without having to take the pump off?
Thanks,
Justin
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It's a b*tch if it hasn't been removed for some time. I used an "S" wrench, but it wasn't pretty using a pry bar to turn it.
FWIW, I kept my compressor, because it works well enough as a relay pulley. I don't need to retighten that often, and a new belt every 18-24 mo. ain't that bad.
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Ah, my condenser is already off and out and my alternator is already in place with the correct pulley. My issue is the pivot bolt that holds the alternator onto the bracket keeps snapping due to the tension of the belt (I assume).
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Time for a serpentine setup ;)
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Yeah I just dropped a few dollars on a new alternator I guess a grade 12.9 bolt will have to do. Now just to find one of proper length and pitch.
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Welp, think I found the correct combination. 993 mm belt with a 120mm grade 12.9 grade socket cap Bolt without grinding the original bracket at all. 14.3 V at the battery in the hatch, never seen that before. We shall see.
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A picture, if you get a chance? Thx.
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(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8568/16674999546_8a7dcdf5cc_c.jpg)
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8650/16675048486_cc4fdf57ca_c.jpg)
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8621/16513537410_226fa96213_c.jpg)
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8674/16078613714_417a40fa43_c.jpg)
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8622/16081036463_99a330d65f_c.jpg)
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OK, got it, thanks.
OT: Radiator fan? Bleed hose?
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Pusher fan and what's a bleeder hose?
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Air bleed/purge hose: the tube on the radiator or upper hose to the reservoir.
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Top fill radiator from a MK1 or Scirocco
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Hey, I see you have some extra pivot bolt sticking out there.
I suggest you double nut it. I had to on one of mine because it kept vibrating out.
Keep an eye on it.
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that bolt sticking out of what looks like the top of the alt; perfect for additional grounding w/a nut, etc.
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Thanks for the suggestions fellas, but what would I ground to where and why? Engine to body? Alternator to engine? I currently am not having any ground issues at this point.
Justin
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i ran grounds from main trans ground to top of alt and from top of alt to body, as trans to body grnd tends to go first.
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Ah, I understand, I actually updated all of my grounds when I did my semi wire hide, battery relocation. I have some welding cable going from my - battery post to the bolt that holds the rear bumper on and another cable from the lateral bolt that holds the front bumper to the body to the bellhousing.
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the main thing is to have the ground to engine/trans housing for glow plugs and starts/cold st. and a ground or 2 from motor to body. i ran a ground from trans tunnel to alt top, then another from alt top to body. it seems vw used 2 smaller ground wires to ground body to battery term. not 1 big wire.--that would be 1 connection, you indicate you have 2 body grounds, 2 smaller wires with separate connectors for each body ground. makes current able to flow more smoothly. as current is choosy and can get an attitude!