VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: jboogie13 on November 09, 2012, 01:33:36 pm
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hi all, i searched but didnt realy find an answer to my question.
i just picked up an injection pump from a caddy (rabbit pickup) for pretty cheap (<60$). my question is, with the proper re-seal and tuning setup would i notice an increase in power over my eco? (8mm plunger vs 9mm) or would i be better off doing a guts swap form a pug pump? im not scared to learn how to tune these pumps, i just dont want to run down a dead end street if you know what i mean.
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Get a turbo diesel pump.
Either pump you have now can deliver enough fuel, it will just take the 8mm pump a longer duration to inject it, assuming the camplates are the same, which I have no idea.
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easier said than done, i havent been able to find a TD pump for a reasonable price anywhere, everybody thinks their td pump core is worth the world
would a peugot 504td pump top swap onto the NA pump?
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what do you think is reasonable? i usually see good but used td pumps for 100-200 dollars which i think is fair. to me anything of unknown condition is not worth much who knows what it will need when u send it out to get rebuilt, but that is totally different from a known good pump.
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easier said than done, i havent been able to find a TD pump for a reasonable price anywhere, everybody thinks their td pump core is worth the world
would a peugot 504td pump top swap onto the NA pump?
You're on the right track--what you want is the LDA, which is essentially a variable fuel-limiter pin. I don't have any personal experience with Pugeot pumps, so I can't say for sure, but I believe it would be a straight-across swap. There was a guy on the FS threads who was selling a 10mm Pugeot pump not that long ago; he might still have it. Not only would that have an LDA top, but also you'd be getting a 10mm head/plunger assembly; always a plus :D. What you need to keep in mind is that when swapping out the NA top for an LDA top onto an NA body, you have to knock out or cut off the fuel limiter pin in the NA pump body to allow the LDA to do its job. Even without the LDA though, a 9mm head/plunger will be able to flow enough fuel to destroy a stock motor, if properly tweaked. It's just a matter of how much smoke you'll be making off boost.
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yeah, the LDA is what i was referring to by pump top (ill learn to be more specific some day... ;D) and thats the pump i was referring to (int he f/s section) my goal is to build up a pump/ learn to tune etc, so that i can just swap it onto my car ( and turn up boost etc as well) that way if things dont work out i have the stock pump which is known to work since the car is my daily.
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That Peugeot pump that was for sale by funkmasterg (sorry can't recall exactly), is now in my possession ;) Someone bought it and had it shipped to me to have resealed and modified :D. Other than the 10mm plunger, the Peugeot pump is not really desirable. It has a weaker cam plate than the 1.6 pump, and also a poorer boost pin.
The 9mm internals are more than enough for a 1.6. Don't waste your time there, trying to hunt down a 10 or 11mm setup. Another option is to just run a non-turbo pump with the 9mm running gear.. It will move the same amount of fuel and the only difference will be you control smoke with your right foot, and not the boost pin.
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he has another pump of the same design, will the LDA swap onto the 9mm pump? this making somewhat of a bastard TD pump?
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Physically yes, it looks identical to the 1.6 TD lid. You will have to remove the limiter pin inside of the 9mm N/A pump if you so decide to go that route.
I have sent/am sending you a PM.
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Is the LDA lever on the same side as the Vw pumps or opposite like the Cummins?
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Is the LDA lever on the same side as the Vw pumps or opposite like the Cummins?
Hmm, I'll run down and take a look see.
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Identical. Minus the idle bump lever, Peugeot left and 1.6 TD right.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/20121110_093913.jpg)
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So what's the issue with the Peugeot LDA as far as transplanting it to the Ecodiesel pump? I have about 5 Peugeot TD pumps, some are 9 , some are 10 mm.
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So what's the issue with the Peugeot LDA as far as transplanting it to the Ecodiesel pump? I have about 5 Peugeot TD pumps, some are 9 , some are 10 mm.
No issue. As stated above, they are identical lids.
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easier said than done, i havent been able to find a TD pump for a reasonable price anywhere, everybody thinks their td pump core is worth the world
would a peugot 504td pump top swap onto the NA pump?
You're on the right track--what you want is the LDA, which is essentially a variable fuel-limiter pin. I don't have any personal experience with Pugeot pumps, so I can't say for sure, but I believe it would be a straight-across swap. There was a guy on the FS threads who was selling a 10mm Pugeot pump not that long ago; he might still have it. Not only would that have an LDA top, but also you'd be getting a 10mm head/plunger assembly; always a plus :D. What you need to keep in mind is that when swapping out the NA top for an LDA top onto an NA body, you have to knock out or cut off the fuel limiter pin in the NA pump body to allow the LDA to do its job. Even without the LDA though, a 9mm head/plunger will be able to flow enough fuel to destroy a stock motor, if properly tweaked. It's just a matter of how much smoke you'll be making off boost.
Peugeot pump WILL NOT fit the VW bracket without removing the bracket, and re-drilling it for the pug pump..
a 9mm wont burn an engine down unless you have a severely restrictive turbo, and not enough boost..
and like was mentioned, you NEED to remove the max fuel limiter pin out of the n/a pump body to make an LDA do anything..
i wouldnt go with a 10mm pump unless you have plans of pretty wild power..
i WOULD NOT however, use your 8mm pump.. really a waste of time to even modify it.. i would just start out with a n/a pump, and add the LDA.. the 8mm plunger is a severe limitation.
my current pump is a rebuilt n/a body, with a rebuilt VW LDA assembly fitted.. it is in every way, identical to a TD pump...
also, you will have to modify the fulcrum plate of ANY VW pump to fit the peugeot top, being that there is also a mechanical shut-off on the pug. its the lever on the far left in the last pic..
would be better to just find a n/a pump, and keep your eco pump whole, as a spare WHEN you need it..
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thats what im planning on doing, i got said n/a pump really cheap (60 bucks) and the pugeot is relatively inexpensive as well(if nothing else ive spent some money to learn my way around these things) ive decided to keep the 9mm head and fit the pug LDA to it. the eco will be my backup as you suggested.
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also, you will have to modify the fulcrum plate of ANY VW pump to fit the peugeot top, being that there is also a mechanical shut-off on the pug. its the lever on the far left in the last pic..
by modify you mean i would need to remove the mechanical shutoff from it, and block the hole for the shaft correct?
learning a bunch, thanks guys!
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You could probably just use the pug control lever assembly.
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You could probably just use the pug control lever assembly.
both pumps are currently en route so soon we shall see.
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You could probably just use the pug control lever assembly.
prolly could..
but how much of a mutt are we really looking at building here?
i would NOT use the 10mm pump unless you have hopes of big power..
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You could probably just use the pug control lever assembly.
prolly could..
but how much of a mutt are we really looking at building here?
i would NOT use the 10mm pump unless you have hopes of big power..
im not using the 10mm pump, im using the 9mm head and putting the pugs LDA on top.
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You could probably just use the pug control lever assembly.
prolly could..
but how much of a mutt are we really looking at building here?
i would NOT use the 10mm pump unless you have hopes of big power..
im not using the 10mm pump, im using the 9mm head and putting the pugs LDA on top.
you gonna use the pug fulcrum assy, or cut the lever off?
remember, you gotta knock the fuel limiter pin out of the side of the pump too..
and FWIW, i ran a n/a pump LOTS OF MILES without an LDA.. they work JUST FINE.. just a tid bit smokey on the bottom end if you really hog on it..
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you gonna use the pug fulcrum assy, or cut the lever off?
remember, you gotta knock the fuel limiter pin out of the side of the pump too..
and FWIW, i ran a n/a pump LOTS OF MILES without an LDA.. they work JUST FINE.. just a tid bit smokey on the bottom end if you really hog on it..
not sure yet, im going to wait until both pumps are in front of me to make that decision. Im not sure if the N/A pump is in running condition so im disassembling/resealing anyways. as far as daily driving needs, my eco pumps satisfies them, so this second pump is more of a rolling experiment and if/when i get things where i like them, i may throw on a bigger turbo and start playing that game. i was thinking something like a gt15 just for a small bump, or maybe even a 2052 to really make things difficult ;D
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you gonna use the pug fulcrum assy, or cut the lever off?
remember, you gotta knock the fuel limiter pin out of the side of the pump too..
and FWIW, i ran a n/a pump LOTS OF MILES without an LDA.. they work JUST FINE.. just a tid bit smokey on the bottom end if you really hog on it..
not sure yet, im going to wait until both pumps are in front of me to make that decision. Im not sure if the N/A pump is in running condition so im disassembling/resealing anyways. as far as daily driving needs, my eco pumps satisfies them, so this second pump is more of a rolling experiment and if/when i get things where i like them, i may throw on a bigger turbo and start playing that game. i was thinking something like a gt15 just for a small bump, or maybe even a 2052 to really make things difficult ;D
thats kinda apples and oranges..
a GT1549 is TINY, like K03 size..
a GT2052 is HUGE, basically a BIG T3 turbo..
the GT15 will spool instantly..
the GT2052 will NOT spool instantly..
the 2056 would be a better choice than the 2052..
my car has a GT2056V (vnt) on it.. its big, and laggy, even with working vanes..
my favorite setup i have EVER ran, was a VNT15, and a n/a pump...
it never had enough fuel to get hot.. i could beat on that engine as hard as i wanted, and it never died..
added the LDA to the same pump, and it would burn the engine down no problem...
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I thought the eco version of the k14 was small then I saw the gt15 on my tdi.
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I thought the eco version of the k14 was small then I saw the gt15 on my tdi.
yup, GT15 is what the K03 was replaced with...
either way, they run out of steam before max rpm..
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I thought the eco version of the k14 was small then I saw the gt15 on my tdi.
yup, GT15 is what the K03 was replaced with...
either way, they run out of steam before max rpm..
But do not underestimate their power abilities.. My car is a friggan rocket. I have my current fueling maxed out with everything turned all the way up. Yeah they run out of breath early, but there is no need to EVER crest 3500, EVER. A VNT is most certainly in my future.
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I thought the eco version of the k14 was small then I saw the gt15 on my tdi.
yup, GT15 is what the K03 was replaced with...
either way, they run out of steam before max rpm..
But do not underestimate their power abilities.. My car is a friggan rocket. I have my current fueling maxed out with everything turned all the way up. Yeah they run out of breath early, but there is no need to EVER crest 3500, EVER. A VNT is most certainly in my future.
if you drive a IDI, you need more than 3500 revs...
even if i had a TDI, i would still rev it out, because i would likely have my big VNT on there..
the bigger turbo will REQUIRE you to rev it more to get the same power..
my engine is JUST starting to make good power by 3500... i have to rev it.
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if you drive a IDI, you need more than 3500 revs...
my engine is JUST starting to make good power by 3500... i have to rev it.
No sir, brothers AAZ IDI has the same k03 on it. It hauls down the road same as me with the same power band as my TDI. Small turbo's rule. As small as can realistically be seems to be the best turbo choice.
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if you drive a IDI, you need more than 3500 revs...
my engine is JUST starting to make good power by 3500... i have to rev it.
No sir, brothers AAZ IDI has the same k03 on it. It hauls down the road same as me with the same power band as my TDI. Small turbo's rule. As small as can realistically be seems to be the best turbo choice.
dude, install a drive pressure gauge on yours and your brothers car...
ill install one as well..
remember, 1:1 is ideal..
i have a feeling that the K03 will be somewhere around 2:1, maybe higher, @WOT...
i feel that the smallest turbo that you can run WITHOUT being restrictive, is the best turbo...
K03s are restrictive, nothing you say will change my mind, unless you PROVE your facts..
if you install a drive pressure gauge, and the K03 never builds extreme drive pressure, then i will shut up about K03s being too small...
you are one of the only people on the forum that actually ENDORSES the K03s...
my favorite turbo ive ever run, was a VNT15 with the vanes open.. that turbo didnt choke on the top end, but its a totally 100% different animal...
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i would love to put a vnt on my engine, but i still havent been able to find an effective way of controlling the vanes. and i really dont want to use a standalone unit, if i wanted the turbo (or anything) computer controlled on the car i would rather start sourcing a tdi swap. id like to stay wastegated. Ive still got some reading to do on turbo maps and efficiency which is why ive been concerning myself with the fuel side for now. but i hope to find a turbo that will spool quick enough to give me power more towards the low end, but wont leave a cloud of black smoke behind me until WOT.
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jboogie13, when are you getting the injection pumps? Take lot's of pics when you do the parts swap.
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jboogie13, when are you getting the injection pumps? Take lot's of pics when you do the parts swap.
n/a pump is in the mail, and currently waiting on flowmastergfunk to ship the pug pump, will definitely make a build thread for the pump as i will surely have many questions
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i would love to put a vnt on my engine, but i still havent been able to find an effective way of controlling the vanes.
My mechanical controls work excellently.
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jboogie13, when are you getting the injection pumps? Take lot's of pics when you do the parts swap.
n/a pump is in the mail, and currently waiting on flowmastergfunk to ship the pug pump, will definitely make a build thread for the pump as i will surely have many questions
Nothing at all different with the pug innards. I have one open on my bench right now. Identical innards. Do not use the pug cam plate, it has a smaller lift than the 1.6 one.
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jboogie13, when are you getting the injection pumps? Take lot's of pics when you do the parts swap.
n/a pump is in the mail, and currently waiting on flowmastergfunk to ship the pug pump, will definitely make a build thread for the pump as i will surely have many questions
Nothing at all different with the pug innards. I have one open on my bench right now. Identical innards. Do not use the pug cam plate, it has a smaller lift than the 1.6 one.
What's the Bosch p/n of your Pug pump?
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(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/20121017_203953.jpg)
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(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/20121017_203953.jpg)
I have 4 Pug pumps, all 10 mm except one 9 mm but different p/n than yours.
Can you post a pic of the fuel limiter pin out of the side of the pump, the one needing removal from the NA pump?
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i would love to put a vnt on my engine, but i still havent been able to find an effective way of controlling the vanes.
My mechanical controls work excellently.
i will have to look your controls up then, but does it actuate the vanes dependant of manifold pressure? or just as a wastegate and the vanes are either full open or full close (if that makes sense)
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Libby's setup adjusts the vanes based on both manifold pressure and throttle position; i.e., the proper way ;)
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Libby's setup adjusts the vanes based on both manifold pressure and throttle position; i.e., the proper way ;)
and this is all done mechanically (no computer or standalone control?)
is there a build thread for this setup? if so a ink would be highly appreciated ???
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Libby's setup adjusts the vanes based on both manifold pressure and throttle position; i.e., the proper way ;)
and this is all done mechanically (no computer or standalone control?)
is there a build thread for this setup? if so a ink would be highly appreciated ???
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-performance-tuning/304603-mechanical-vnt-control.html
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I like my vanagon version better than the mercedes one.
http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11042
I have one more design update that I haven't yet built. I've also been considering doing a standalone electronic version on a different vehicle (ALH in automatic vanagon).
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Can you post a pic of the fuel limiter pin out of the side of the pump, the one needing removal from the NA pump?
Certainly.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/2012-05-17215023.jpg)
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I like my vanagon version better than the mercedes one.
http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11042
I have one more design update that I haven't yet built. I've also been considering doing a standalone electronic version on a different vehicle (ALH in automatic vanagon).
How long did it take you design this system?
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Can you post a pic of the fuel limiter pin out of the side of the pump, the one needing removal from the NA pump?
Certainly.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/2012-05-17215023.jpg)
Thank you sir! Is it the long pin or the short rusty pin on the lower part of the pic? What's the best way to remove it?
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How long did it take you design this system?
It's been a gradually evolving design with lots of input from others. I think I started playing with the VNTs in 2005.
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How long did it take you design this system?
It's been a gradually evolving design with lots of input from others. I think I started playing with the VNTs in 2005.
that vanagon setup looks very nice, how did you figure the spring rates for the pump lever to boost actuator arm?
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jboogie13, when are you getting the injection pumps? Take lot's of pics when you do the parts swap.
n/a pump is in the mail, and currently waiting on flowmastergfunk to ship the pug pump, will definitely make a build thread for the pump as i will surely have many questions
Nothing at all different with the pug innards. I have one open on my bench right now. Identical innards. Do not use the pug cam plate, it has a smaller lift than the 1.6 one.
????????
WTF? i measured mine.. 2.3mm lift on the 1.6, and pug pumps i have..
10mm plunger, 2.3mm lift cam plate..
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jboogie13, when are you getting the injection pumps? Take lot's of pics when you do the parts swap.
n/a pump is in the mail, and currently waiting on flowmastergfunk to ship the pug pump, will definitely make a build thread for the pump as i will surely have many questions
Nothing at all different with the pug innards. I have one open on my bench right now. Identical innards. Do not use the pug cam plate, it has a smaller lift than the 1.6 one.
????????
WTF? i measured mine.. 2.3mm lift on the 1.6, and pug pumps i have..
10mm plunger, 2.3mm lift cam plate..
perhaps there were different cam plates installed according to their application, injector combo's etc, i would measure the difference anyways just for the sake of good habits.
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jboogie13, when are you getting the injection pumps? Take lot's of pics when you do the parts swap.
n/a pump is in the mail, and currently waiting on flowmastergfunk to ship the pug pump, will definitely make a build thread for the pump as i will surely have many questions
Nothing at all different with the pug innards. I have one open on my bench right now. Identical innards. Do not use the pug cam plate, it has a smaller lift than the 1.6 one.
????????
WTF? i measured mine.. 2.3mm lift on the 1.6, and pug pumps i have..
10mm plunger, 2.3mm lift cam plate..
perhaps there were different cam plates installed according to their application, injector combo's etc, i would measure the difference anyways just for the sake of good habits.
I have measured 2.19mm on my pug, 2.26mm on the 1.6 and 3.13mm on the AAZ.
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wow quite the jump for the AAZ
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jboogie13, when are you getting the injection pumps? Take lot's of pics when you do the parts swap.
n/a pump is in the mail, and currently waiting on flowmastergfunk to ship the pug pump, will definitely make a build thread for the pump as i will surely have many questions
Nothing at all different with the pug innards. I have one open on my bench right now. Identical innards. Do not use the pug cam plate, it has a smaller lift than the 1.6 one.
????????
WTF? i measured mine.. 2.3mm lift on the 1.6, and pug pumps i have..
10mm plunger, 2.3mm lift cam plate..
perhaps there were different cam plates installed according to their application, injector combo's etc, i would measure the difference anyways just for the sake of good habits.
I have measured 2.19mm on my pug, 2.26mm on the 1.6 and 3.13mm on the AAZ.
hmm.. weird. may have to go measure again...
i swear my measurements were closer than that?!
thats pretty weird tho, they call the 1.6 plate a "2.3mm lift" and the 1.9 plate is said to have 4mm lift. or atleast thats the numbers that have been floating around..
but the Peugeot cars have DNO SD251 nozzles set @ 130bar, and supposedly a 2.19mm lift plate (i trust Jeremys memory more than my own) with a 10mm plunger...
kinda thinking out loud now, but being that the pug pump has a smaller cam, in theory, it is capable of spinning greater RPMs before roller float, right?
i doubt a smaller cam is what we need for RPMs tho..
has anyone run some TDI plunger springs on an IDI pump yet?
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hmm.. weird. may have to go measure again...
i swear my measurements were closer than that?!
thats pretty weird tho, they call the 1.6 plate a "2.3mm lift" and the 1.9 plate is said to have 4mm lift. or atleast thats the numbers that have been floating around..
but the Peugeot cars have DNO SD251 nozzles set @ 130bar, and supposedly a 2.19mm lift plate (i trust Jeremys memory more than my own) with a 10mm plunger...
kinda thinking out loud now, but being that the pug pump has a smaller cam, in theory, it is capable of spinning greater RPMs before roller float, right?
i doubt a smaller cam is what we need for RPMs tho..
has anyone run some TDI plunger springs on an IDI pump yet?
i think you are correct in thinking that the smaller lift would equate higher float rpm, but i think the difference would be marginal.
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hmm.. weird. may have to go measure again...
i swear my measurements were closer than that?!
thats pretty weird tho, they call the 1.6 plate a "2.3mm lift" and the 1.9 plate is said to have 4mm lift. or atleast thats the numbers that have been floating around..
but the Peugeot cars have DNO SD251 nozzles set @ 130bar, and supposedly a 2.19mm lift plate (i trust Jeremys memory more than my own) with a 10mm plunger...
kinda thinking out loud now, but being that the pug pump has a smaller cam, in theory, it is capable of spinning greater RPMs before roller float, right?
i doubt a smaller cam is what we need for RPMs tho..
has anyone run some TDI plunger springs on an IDI pump yet?
i think you are correct in thinking that the smaller lift would equate higher float rpm, but i think the difference would be marginal.
really wish i had some pumps to play around with!!
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I measured a pug pump I have 0 460 494 159 and the cam plate lift is 4.2 mm. On the back of the cam plate is marked 440. Does that number signify anything?
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I measured a pug pump I have 0 460 494 159 and the cam plate lift is 4.2 mm. On the back of the cam plate is marked 440. Does that number signify anything?
the difference from the valley to the peaks is 4.2mm?!?!
and its a 9mm plunger.. weird..
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I measured a pug pump I have 0 460 494 159 and the cam plate lift is 4.2 mm. On the back of the cam plate is marked 440. Does that number signify anything?
the difference from the valley to the peaks is 4.2mm?!?!
and its a 9mm plunger.. weird..
Sorry, I forgot to subtract the thickness (1.9 mm) of the plate that was laid on top of 2 peaks when the measurement was made. Subtracting 1.9 would give 2.3 mm for the pug cam plate on my pump.
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I measured a pug pump I have 0 460 494 159 and the cam plate lift is 4.2 mm. On the back of the cam plate is marked 440. Does that number signify anything?
the difference from the valley to the peaks is 4.2mm?!?!
and its a 9mm plunger.. weird..
Sorry, I forgot to subtract the thickness (1.9 mm) of the plate that was laid on top of 2 peaks when the measurement was made. Subtracting 1.9 would give 2.3 mm for the pug cam plate on my pump.
swear thats the measurement i got as well..
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I measured a pug pump I have 0 460 494 159 and the cam plate lift is 4.2 mm. On the back of the cam plate is marked 440. Does that number signify anything?
the difference from the valley to the peaks is 4.2mm?!?!
and its a 9mm plunger.. weird..
Sorry, I forgot to subtract the thickness (1.9 mm) of the plate that was laid on top of 2 peaks when the measurement was made. Subtracting 1.9 would give 2.3 mm for the pug cam plate on my pump.
swear thats the measurement i got as well..
Some possibilities for the 2.19 mm that Jeremy measured:
1. It is correct
2. Cam is worn. Can it wear that much?
3. Jeremy's memory may be off?
4. Error in measurement
Maybe Jeremy would be so kind to measure it again?
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I measured a pug pump I have 0 460 494 159 and the cam plate lift is 4.2 mm. On the back of the cam plate is marked 440. Does that number signify anything?
the difference from the valley to the peaks is 4.2mm?!?!
and its a 9mm plunger.. weird..
Sorry, I forgot to subtract the thickness (1.9 mm) of the plate that was laid on top of 2 peaks when the measurement was made. Subtracting 1.9 would give 2.3 mm for the pug cam plate on my pump.
swear thats the measurement i got as well..
Some possibilities for the 2.19 mm that Jeremy measured:
1. It is correct
2. Cam is worn. Can it wear that much?
3. Jeremy's memory may be off?
4. Error in measurement
Maybe Jeremy would be so kind to measure it again?
oh no, if anyones memory is off, its mine..
i would take Jeremys word over my own even..
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Some possibilities for the 2.19 mm that Jeremy measured:
1. It is correct
2. Cam is worn. Can it wear that much?
3. Jeremy's memory may be off?
4. Error in measurement
Maybe Jeremy would be so kind to measure it again?
Sorry I missed this REPLY!!! that was several measurements all at the same time, and numbers not from memory. I keep a handy dandy note pad in my pocket while I am on endeavors so that I don't have to rely on my memory ;).
The cam plate showed no substantial wear. Here is a picture of said Peugeot cam plate.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/20121017_221428.jpg)
I measured from the flat bottom to the valleys, and then from the flat bottom to the very peaks of the lobes. 2.19mm.
Crap picture, but beside the AAZ plate (left).
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/20121106_201512.jpg)
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jboogie13, have you started on your pumps yet? I disassembled a NA pump and took measurements of the cam plate lift. I'll post it later.
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On the left is the Peugeot cam plate, right is VW NA. They are both 9 mm pumps. Peugeot cam plate has 2.5 mm lift, VW NA cam plate 2.1 mm lift. This time, I measured it the same way 8V did, which should be more accurate than my previous measurements.
The Peugeot pump is a TD pump from a 2.3 L engine w 80 HP. Should I use the Peugeot cam plate to build my VW TD pump? Good or bad idea? What can I expect from it?
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20130207_211330_zps42b80356.jpg)
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Flip them on over and compare the sizes of the nubs that interact with the plunger.. Mine were different for the Peugeot and the AAZ. Which is weird, because I have put aaz cams in 1.6 pumps before.
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Nubs? Not sure what you mean. ???
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Flip the cam-plate over, the little chrome nipples that fit sunggly in the rotor. They differ in size.
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I may have used the wrong terms. What I called the cam plate is actually the cam disk. The cam plate is still in the pump (you can see in the pic). Is that what you want me to flip over?
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Can you post a pic of the nubs?
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No sir, that is the roller cage. The cam plate/ cam disk is the same thing. Flip it over and observe the chrome tit.
In your picture, see the two chrome circles that are perfectly in line with the cams lobes? they run through the camplate/disk. Far right of the inner circle.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpYLQ6B2FVzf5SZdw1MdwJaKx2GXvNuukHEmJ04QBiPSieQDlV_A)
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took a shower and I'm in bed now. I'll take a look tomorrow.
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Flip them on over and compare the sizes of the nubs that interact with the plunger.. Mine were different for the Peugeot and the AAZ. Which is weird, because I have put aaz cams in 1.6 pumps before.
What is "them" in my pic above? The cam plate? Where is the "nub"? On the cam plate or elsewhere? The only "nub" I see on the opposite side of the cams on the cam plate is an off center drive pin, a chrome plated center which pushes on the plunger via a chrome plated disc.
Flip the cam-plate over, the little chrome nipples that fit sunggly in the rotor. They differ in size.
There are no chrome nipples on my flipped over cam plate. These chrome nipples fit snuggly in the rotor? What rotor?
No sir, that is the roller cage. The cam plate/ cam disk is the same thing. Flip it over and observe the chrome tit.
In your picture, see the two chrome circles that are perfectly in line with the cams lobes? they run through the camplate/disk. Far right of the inner circle.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpYLQ6B2FVzf5SZdw1MdwJaKx2GXvNuukHEmJ04QBiPSieQDlV_A)
Again, the only thing chrome after flipping the cam plate over is the center circle.
"two chrome circles that are perfectly in line with the cams lobes" If you are talking about the opened pumps, those are roller cages without the rollers. What "nubs" are you talking about?
"they run through the camplate/disk." Run through implies there is a hole in the cam plate. There is no hole in my cam plate.
Very confused ???
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[kibbutz]
I believe 8v is referring to the dowel-pins that orient the plungers to the camplates... they might be different sizes.
The pin referred to as a "drive pin" in above post.
[/kibbutz]
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Flip them on over and compare the sizes of the nubs that interact with the plunger.. Mine were different for the Peugeot and the AAZ. Which is weird, because I have put aaz cams in 1.6 pumps before.
What is "them" in my pic above? The cam plate? Where is the "nub"? On the cam plate or elsewhere? The only "nub" I see on the opposite side of the cams on the cam plate is an off center drive pin, a chrome plated center which pushes on the plunger via a chrome plated disc.
Flip the cam-plate over, the little chrome nipples that fit sunggly in the rotor. They differ in size.
There are no chrome nipples on my flipped over cam plate. These chrome nipples fit snuggly in the rotor? What rotor?
No sir, that is the roller cage. The cam plate/ cam disk is the same thing. Flip it over and observe the chrome tit.
In your picture, see the two chrome circles that are perfectly in line with the cams lobes? they run through the camplate/disk. Far right of the inner circle.
If its the only one you see.. he nits the only thing I could be talking about lol
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpYLQ6B2FVzf5SZdw1MdwJaKx2GXvNuukHEmJ04QBiPSieQDlV_A)
Again, the only thing chrome after flipping the cam plate over is the center circle.
Lies lol, the nub/pins/dowels are also chrome
"they run through the camplate/disk." Run through implies there is a hole in the cam plate. There is no hole in my cam plate.
Very confused ???
You have found the pins/dowels/nubs compare both sides of the cam plate/disk they do run through it as a solid dowel/pin/nub.
Now, for what I was simply trying to convey.. I have seen them in different sizes meaning not every cam plate/disk is not interchangeable with every rotor and distributor head. Also for your learning, rotors should never be swapped from their native distributor head. They are a machined couple, and tolerances here must be exact or you loose the ability for high pressure injector opening.
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Here's the the Peugeot cam plate. Pin end is not chrome. I was looking for "chrome nipples", nipples is plural so I was looking for 2 or more and there was none to be found. Now that I know what you are talking about, looking closely at the circumference of the pin, it is chrome, and the pin does look like it can be driven out. I was confused as hell and looked in the wrong places lol. I thought maybe the chrome nubs (plural) were the rollers since there are four and they are definitely chrome.
Well both cam plates nubs fit both plungers. Do you recommend I use the Peugeot cam plate with higher lift?
I do know the plunger/head is a matched set.
How do you tell if a plunger /head/ control collar is within spec?
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x480/Ecodiesel92/IMG_20130208_225011_zps5cdc187b.jpg)
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I measured my Peugeot cam-plate to have less lift than the 1.6 pumps cam-plate.
2.19mm for the Peugeot and 2.26mm for the 1.6 pumps.
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My Peugeot cam plate lift is 2.5 mm , VW NA 1.6 is 2.1 mm. I'll be taking apart another Peugeot 9 mm pump soon. Will be interesting to see what the lift is.
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I measured a 10mm Peugeot pump. So maybe its all different. If you can, I have measured AAZ cam-plates at 3.1mm of lift and a way sharper ramp on them.
I have built three 1.6 TD pumps with AAZ internals with EXTREME results in power increase.
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Now, for what I was simply trying to convey.. I have seen them in different sizes meaning not every cam plate/disk is not interchangeable with every rotor and distributor head. Also for your learning, rotors should never be swapped from their native distributor head. They are a machined couple, and tolerances here must be exact or you loose the ability for high pressure injector opening.
Is rotor the correct nomenclature for the plunger (aka distributor)?
What makes some cam plates not fit some plungers?
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Plunger, Rotor, distributor.. I have heard them called all three.
The cam plates do not fit because those Dowels, are different sizes and they do not fit their respective holes of a different rotor/plunger/distributor. So when swapping just the cam-plate.. there might be issue.
If you were swapping the pumps entire "drive-train" you should have no issue.
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Bosch uses the term "Plunger" or "Distributor Plunger", "rotor" is sometimes used by other sources for the plunger, or the vane-pump rotating element.
I suppose it could be possible to pair a camplate with a small pin to a plunger with a large slot, but that will have slop (excessive backlash) that could affect setting the timing .
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Bosch uses the term "Plunger" or "Distributor Plunger", "rotor" is sometimes used by other sources for the plunger, or the vane-pump rotating element.
I suppose it could be possible to pair a camplate with a small pin to a plunger with a large slot, but that will have slop (excessive backlash) that could affect setting the timing .
I don't think Bosch calls the plunger/ distributor a rotor. There are 2 other major parts in the pump that rotates that's called a rotor.
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The only rotating parts are the drive-shaft, the vane pump, the cam-plate, and the plunger. The drive-shaft has a gear on it which reverse rotates the governor assembly above it.