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General Information => General => Topic started by: 8v-of-fury on August 14, 2012, 09:01:59 am
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Arr'y so check it monn.
I am gonna start running some bubbling crude, Jed Clampett style ;). Lol.
I have access to thousands of liters of waste motot oil, through various shops were friends and myself work. It is stored in large tanks so here is my plan, let me know what you think.
The large tanks sit for a good amount of time between being filled and emptied (which costs these shops money, ill do it free). In that time i feel all the water will seperate and sink, the metal will seperate and be at the bottom of the water, and ill be left with clean black oil up top :D. Now i dont wanna filter this between tanks.. Yes i am that lazy. Id just rather contain the mess to my car lol.
What im thiking is i can run a three filter setup on my car.. Its an mk1 so i have all metal fuel components regarding filler, tank and lines. I have a good void beside the tak under car that i want to run a 25 micron with a water seperator right at the tank, a larger than stock 15 micron with water seperatot and larger than stock 2 micron with water seperator (in that order) before my electric puller pump and then have that feed directly to my IP. I think that will be worth the effort of installtion to filter in the car..
Plus means i can dump any old thing in my tank at any given timelol!
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Keep in mind most filters are rated using a multipass test, while with your setup you will mostly get a single pass before supplying your IP. Also the efficiency rating is very important if you are doing a single pass. If the last filter for example can catch as small as a 2 micron particle, that doesn't mean it stops everything larger. If the efficiency is 50%, then half of all the 2 micron particles would get past it. There are some filters available with a single pass rating.
Doesn't mean I'm trying to rain on your parade. One of my co-workers runs 80-100% waste oil during the summer on his VW diesel. Smokes more than on No.2, but not outrageously so. What he is using has a fairly significant but undetermined percentage of 10W with the rest being 15W40. If his eyeballs tell him the viscosity is high he thins it out with diesel fuel. I have no idea what he bases his viscosity criteria on other than gut feel. He does filter off the car as he says sometimes it can take 48 hours to run through the filters he uses (gravity only).
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/681/oil-filter (http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/681/oil-filter)
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/564/filter-beta-ratios (http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/564/filter-beta-ratios)
http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/89-5R3.pdf (http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/89-5R3.pdf)
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=348473 (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=348473)
http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/sae_filtration_study/index.html (http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/sae_filtration_study/index.html)
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It will be hard to do it w/o CF,long time is Q.
TRy to pick oil very slow 20 cm from bottom,if you know SVO-WVO boys setup that is OK for WMO.
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Oil is designed to suspend particles in it. I think you're going to want to filter it pretty darn good. If you get a nice filtering setup in the shed it shouldn't be much mess at all.
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Is all oil designed to suspend particles? I thought that was the main difference with diesel rated oil.
Everything that I've read on the subject of WMO, Black Diesel, etc., pretty much called for being particular with what you burn. No diesel oil or city driven oil. I guess if you want to spend a lot of time filtering or spinning, you could run anything. 2 stage filter socks are pretty cheap, but as mentioned, several passes are required.
I'd like to see you go for it. This topic has always facinated me, but I don't drive enough to make it worth my time.
-Todd
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Well what I am thinking here is, if the stock filter is 15 micron.. It has had stuff that has been >14 micron going through the pump all the time, and even stuff <15 micron some of the time. Does it really matter what the particles are so long as they are smaller than the clearances in the pump are? If these pumps run 500k with stock filters that weren't changed regularly, guaranteeing that there were particles (of whatever, crap from a diesel tank..).. Whats to say the 3 or 4 micron stuff is going to do any damage by making their way through the filter and in to the pump?
If my final filter is 2m and being that it may not be 100% at a single pass, who cares? The stuff getting in to the pump will still only be 2/100's of a human hair.. and that is still 13m smaller than what was allowed to flow through the pump stock.
I am not being a snot noser here, lol. I am simply coming at this from every angle. I have a thirst for knowledge! I WANT OT KNOW ALL! :)
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Seems that Racor would be a suitable supplier, and this would make a good 2nd filter after a larger micron and before a 2 micron.
045-RAC-351 FUEL FILTER/WATER SEPARATOR
The 045-RAC-351 fuel filter/water separator is assembled with our legendary 10 micron Aquabloc®II media, a plated steel housing, a vent plug, and a lateral drain. This filter is designed to be installed on the suction (or vacuum) side of the fuel system with a maximum flow rate of 35 GPH (132 LPH) with diesel fuel and 45 GPH (170 LPH) with gasoline. This fuel filter assembly is extremely effective in removing better than 93% of free water normally found in fuel due to condensation and removes 95% of particulate matter down to 10 micron (nominal). Typical applications for the 045-RAC-351 include: generator sets, agriculture equipment, construction equipment, or any engine up to 220 HP."
http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKER/menuitem.338f315e827b2c6315731910237ad1ca/?vgnextoid=94639bd01975e210VgnVCM10000048021dacRCRD&vgnextfmt=default&vgnextfmt=EN&productcategory=productline&vgnextdiv=687630&vgnextcatid=227023&vgnextcat=045-RAC-351+FUEL+FILTER%2FWATER+SEPARATOR&Wtky=
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I'd say go for it, since you have spare engines and pumps.
One thing I'd be concerned about is the viscosity of WMO if you plan on running it straight, especially when the temperature starts dropping. Black diesel would be a safer bet, although you'd need to spend a few bucks on diesel. Another concern would be the acids in used oil.
I'm sure you could cut the WMO enough with a lesser amount of gas and get the same results. Be careful with adding gas, though.
-Todd
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Well after doing some HEAVY reading, like 20 pages or more of pure knowledge.. I am now an aware being on your typical media filter.
It would seem.. that I probably will have to do some polishing prior to putting it in the tank. So from that note, what are people using for home filtration devices? I have heard of house water filtration systems , can that get down to 2u (u=micron)?
Filter bags. Seems to be the best way to go. Cold VO will do about 1gpm. These are 50 GPM bags, that have been known to filter over a thousand gallons without replacement. Start at 200u and end up at 1u. Sounds pretty good to me for like $50... I don't have access to spare AHU engines and Rover pumps no, I was more foolish with my 1.6 n/a LOL.. that I had a few parts motors and 9 pumps for. ;)
--200/100u
4 3/32" Diam
14" Tall
50 GPM
P/N 5726K46
$8.95
--50/25u
4 3/32" Diam
14" Tall
50 GPM
P/N 5726K44
$8.95
--10/5u
4 3/32" Diam
14" Tall
50 GPM
P/N 5726K42
$8.95
--5/1u
4 3/32" Diam
14" Tall
50 GPM
P/N 5726K41
$8.95
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Well what I am thinking here is, if the stock filter is 15 micron..
I think it's important to remember that diesel from the station is pretty clean. There's not a lot of crap floating around in it, which is why you can basically never change your fuel filter and not have problems. WMO is full of brass, copper, tin, aluminum etc.
Your filtering plan sounds good. Where are you getting the bags from? You have to worry about them stretching and loosing their u rating right?
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Well yes, but there is most certainly particles in No.2 that are under 15u. Now it doesn't matter what these particles are , but the fact that they are there is the problem.
Tyler, being that you worked on these pumps I don't suppose you know what their tolerances are for the vane pump and such moving pieces?
The filter bags are from McMaster-Carr, and they are "Polyester Felt Bags with Type 304 Stainless Steel Retaining Ring and Woven Polyester Handle—Max. temp. is 300°F". I do not think you have to worry about them stretching. What does your brother use to filter that VO?
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Seems that Racor would be a suitable supplier, and this would make a good 2nd filter after a larger micron and before a 2 micron.
045-RAC-351 FUEL FILTER/WATER SEPARATOR
The 045-RAC-351 fuel filter/water separator is assembled with our legendary 10 micron Aquabloc®II media, a plated steel housing, a vent plug, and a lateral drain. This filter is designed to be installed on the suction (or vacuum) side of the fuel system with a maximum flow rate of 35 GPH (132 LPH) with diesel fuel and 45 GPH (170 LPH) with gasoline. This fuel filter assembly is extremely effective in removing better than 93% of free water normally found in fuel due to condensation and removes 95% of particulate matter down to 10 micron (nominal). Typical applications for the 045-RAC-351 include: generator sets, agriculture equipment, construction equipment, or any engine up to 220 HP."
http://www.parker.com/portal/site/PARKER/menuitem.338f315e827b2c6315731910237ad1ca/?vgnextoid=94639bd01975e210VgnVCM10000048021dacRCRD&vgnextfmt=default&vgnextfmt=EN&productcategory=productline&vgnextdiv=687630&vgnextcatid=227023&vgnextcat=045-RAC-351+FUEL+FILTER%2FWATER+SEPARATOR&Wtky=
figured you would be one of the people that this would be helpful for..
plus, it removes 95% of 10micron and larger particles with a single pass..
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I might run a dual Racor setup on the car, 10u and 2u respectively to just fine-polish that fuel. After that much, it should be pretty "clean". lol
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Well yes, but there is most certainly particles in No.2 that are under 15u. Now it doesn't matter what these particles are , but the fact that they are there is the problem.
Tyler, being that you worked on these pumps I don't suppose you know what their tolerances are for the vane pump and such moving pieces?
The filter bags are from McMaster-Carr, and they are "Polyester Felt Bags with Type 304 Stainless Steel Retaining Ring and Woven Polyester Handle—Max. temp. is 300°F". I do not think you have to worry about them stretching. What does your brother use to filter that VO?
He used a cloth as a pre-filter then runs it through a 2 micron spin-on I think. It might be 5. He also settles it for as long as possible.
I would think the vane pump is fairly tolerant of particles but the head and rotor are not. With your bare eye you can see when a vane pump is screwed, not so with a head and rotor. The advance piston and bore might also suffer because it is the lowest point, moves around a lot but has little flow.
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Have you done any research on centrifuges?
If I was at all serious about running WMO I would invest in a nice centrifuge.
With the volume you have access to, it would pay for itself in no time.
Centrifuge > Filters in the long run IMO.
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X 2 on Centrifuge pressure one is 120 e,in India is 50 $,where you go for hpllyday?
but do you have short or long drive - are you do 1tank or 2 tank?
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Thinning it just a tad before settling it might help suspended stuff in the oil sink better..
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Ahh yes, I have looked heavily in to building my own centrifuge setup with a several step filtration process. It would be like 4-5 passes through the centrifuge and each time the oil would go in to a new barrel that would never see the dirtier oil. Ya'dig?
Much like this video actually.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ey4rZI-xmE
If I were to do that, and have so much oil available to me.. I would get a pickup truck hands down. Still keep the Volkswagen obviously, but something about a '90 Quad Cab 7.3 Ford F-350 gets me giddy :P ;D.
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Ahh yes, I have looked heavily in to building my own centrifuge setup with a several step filtration process. It would be like 4-5 passes through the centrifuge and each time the oil would go in to a new barrel that would never see the dirtier oil. Ya'dig?
Much like this video actually.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Ey4rZI-xmE
If I were to do that, and have so much oil available to me.. I would get a pickup truck hands down. Still keep the Volkswagen obviously, but something about a '90 Quad Cab 7.3 Ford F-350 gets me giddy :P ;D.
omg they are gutless tho... and they DO NOT get good economy..
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omg they are gutless tho... and they DO NOT get good economy..
Ay' but they are around $800 mint near me, and economy? I'll be burning free fuel. Who gives a *** LOL!
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I met a guy who put a cummins into a ford 350 same year he pulled serious weight and claimed he got 20mpg still runnin on bio d.
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Just use old VE Bisch pump and injectors up to 150 bar and you will drive a lot.
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I met a guy who put a cummins into a ford 350 same year he pulled serious weight and claimed he got 20mpg still runnin on bio d.
keyword right there buddy..
CLAIMED..
i can claim i get 100mpg from my VW, but we all know it aint true..
BIO-d doesnt have enough heat in it to get a cummins 20mpg..
maybe a 4BT, but not a 6BT..
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Just use old VE Bisch pump and injectors up to 150 bar and you will drive a lot.
kinda hard to run a bosch pump on an engine setup to run a stanadyne DB2 pump..
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Id love to have a 7.3 non turbo IDI. For nothing more than rollin coal around town, and probably drop it a couple inches :) the only thing shed be hauling would be my quad and snowmobile trailer.
But srsly. This PA biodiesel has a very good kit.. Sadly its like $800.. I mean yeah the fuel savings.. But it would take the year to recoop that. And the initial investment is too high all at once. If i could guarantee steady work id put it on credit.. But i cant guarantee that.
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Id love to have a 7.3 non turbo IDI. For nothing more than rollin coal around town, and probably drop it a couple inches :) the only thing shed be hauling would be my quad and snowmobile trailer.
But srsly. This PA biodiesel has a very good kit.. Sadly its like $800.. I mean yeah the fuel savings.. But it would take the year to recoop that. And the initial investment is too high all at once. If i could guarantee steady work id put it on credit.. But i cant guarantee that.
well, in 1990, that was your only option.. they didnt have turbo idis yet did they?
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Hmm, I do not think they really did that until like a year or two before the Power stroke.
Now you can get a kit easy for the earlier ones.
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Banks kit for the 7.3 runs about 700 used, and it runs just as strong as the PS version.
If 20 MPG is out of reach of a Cummins, why does the 07 QC 4x4 I drive maintain 22 on the highway with no mods but a big square box on the back?
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Banks kit for the 7.3 runs about 700 used, and it runs just as strong as the PS version.
If 20 MPG is out of reach of a Cummins, why does the 07 QC 4x4 I drive maintain 22 on the highway with no mods but a big square box on the back?
going by what i see/hear..
most people claim 20mpg out of their cummins..
90% of those claiming 20, dont get 20..
you might be one of the 10% who actually does get 20mpg. your truck must be 5.9 powered tho.. because the 6.7 doesnt get as good of mileage as the 5.9 did..
are you running bio-d? or regular-d?
this guy claimed 20 on bio..
bio has something like 20% less energy in it, i thought?
i notice the difference in MPG and power in my car, switching from B100, to regular-d
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Banks kit for the 7.3 runs about 700 used, and it runs just as strong as the PS version.
If 20 MPG is out of reach of a Cummins, why does the 07 QC 4x4 I drive maintain 22 on the highway with no mods but a big square box on the back?
going by what i see/hear..
most people claim 20mpg out of their cummins..
90% of those claiming 20, dont get 20..
you might be one of the 10% who actually does get 20mpg. your truck must be 5.9 powered tho.. because the 6.7 doesnt get as good of mileage as the 5.9 did..
are you running bio-d? or regular-d?
this guy claimed 20 on bio..
bio has something like 20% less energy in it, i thought?
i notice the difference in MPG and power in my car, switching from B100, to regular-d
Nothing with regen burn gets great MPG.
20 is easy to do, 25 is not hard on a 2wd with skinny tires, 12Valve through 07
Never used more than B20 for anything but parts cleaner.
22 on the highway is at 73 MPH on Cruise control, or driving steady. it drops to 20 climbing highway 17
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=ca+highway+17
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Wondering if you could make something like a Frantz bypass oil filter setup to run as a full flow. The fuel set ups are the same as the oil set ups, other than the feed and return orfice sizes, making them full flow.
There really isn't much to these and they supposedly filter down to 1/10 micron. The claim was each oil saturated roll was also able to hold 6oz of water. Your elements would be toilet paper rolls. Scott 1000 or other tightly wound 1 ply tissues are best choices. They had a large truck set up that stacked 3 rolls.
It'd probably be wise to let your holding tanks settle for a week or so, filter coarse to fine and then through the set up. Warming the tanks would also speed the process.
-Todd
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5 micron filters are overkill..
2 micron filters are REALLY overkill..
1/10th micron filters? holy shizz...
cheap elements, but damn.. they gonna clog alot..
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1 micron may be overkill for diesel fuel, but it is needed for WMO from my readings.
Plus they are large filter bags, they are cheap and reuseable. I have read of someone using those exact ones for a thousand or more gallons.
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1/10th micron filters? holy shizz...
cheap elements, but damn.. they gonna clog alot..
That's why I mentioned filtering from coarse to fine. When I researched the subject of WMO, spinning the oil was the prefered and fastest method, but multiple sessions were still needed to get the WMO to the 1 micron or cleaner level.
I've spoken to several people who just ran their settled oil through whole house filters and claimed to never have issues. I was always leary of this...
Off topic, but I own 2 NOS Frantz units and plan on running at least 1 as an oil bypass filter. I'm on the fence about if I want to filter my fuel. Ever see this thread(?):
http://www.cumminsforum.com/articles/articles/18/1/Anatomy-of-a-Frantz-toilet-paper-bypass-oil-filter/Page1.html
-Todd
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20,000M on his oil and he is still below the universal average for your typical oil changes. Amazing.
It would do the same I guess to get down in to the sub micron level. I may just have to incorporate one in to my oil system :).
As for the WMO, there is a dude on TDIclub telling me running motor oil with additives will coke everything up like the pump, injectors, and the rings. How? the fuel will be "cleaner" than diesel.
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20,000M on his oil and he is still below the universal average for your typical oil changes. Amazing.
I love the fact that you don't see soot in his oil. When I first saw that thread, I started researching then hunting those filters.
As for the WMO, there is a dude on TDIclub telling me running motor oil with additives will coke everything up like the pump, injectors, and the rings. How? the fuel will be "cleaner" than diesel.
Oil with additives? Who runs non detergent oil, nowadays? Since youre asking around on TDI Club, im guessing you're planning on running this on your AHU? I didn't really think about it before, but most people doing alternative fuels are usually IDI.
The only thing I'd be leery of would be the temperature and ratio of the oil that you burn. Kind of like the effects of cold vegetable oil not atomizing and combusting properly.
-Todd
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I like the Frantz idea. I will be getting one surely. I may not go 20k miles on an oil change.. but maybe 10k ;) lol
Yes on the AHU, I see no reason why there would be any issue on a DI? People do alternative fuels in Cummins motors without issue no? If anything I'd think the DI would make everything atomize better and more fully being directly injected in to the piston cup. But alas, I am new to the world of Alternative Fuels.. so I am just learning :) Please be patient as we all learn collectively. lol
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I like the Frantz idea. I will be getting one surely. I may not go 20k miles on an oil change.. but maybe 10k ;) lol
Yes on the AHU, I see no reason why there would be any issue on a DI? People do alternative fuels in Cummins motors without issue no? If anything I'd think the DI would make everything atomize better and more fully being directly injected in to the piston cup. But alas, I am new to the world of Alternative Fuels.. so I am just learning :) Please be patient as we all learn collectively. lol
my IDI wears out a change of oil in roughly 3500 miles..
i NEED a frantz filter..
my oil isnt even oil anymore, when i change it in the IDI..
its black like tar, and it sheens off the drain plug like water when i drain it.. :o
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I use pressure CF and for 5 yr I never have problem with FF.
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I use pressure CF and for 5 yr I never have problem with FF.
huh what?
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Fuel Filter,I am still learn English (25 yr) LOL,that is easy for me.
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my IDI wears out a change of oil in roughly 3500 miles..
i NEED a frantz filter..
my oil isnt even oil anymore, when i change it in the IDI..
its black like tar, and it sheens off the drain plug like water when i drain it.. :o
What are you doing to your engine; are you on dirt roads all day long? I do 5k oil changes and it looks like hot, black oil when I change it. I'm planning on stretching to at least 10k.
-Todd
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my IDI wears out a change of oil in roughly 3500 miles..
i NEED a frantz filter..
my oil isnt even oil anymore, when i change it in the IDI..
its black like tar, and it sheens off the drain plug like water when i drain it.. :o
What are you doing to your engine; are you on dirt roads all day long? I do 5k oil changes and it looks like hot, black oil when I change it. I'm planning on stretching to at least 10k.
-Todd
Yeah really, I usually go 3500 miles on my changes as well.. but other than the oil being black.. its still got the properties of new oil.
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Oh, and btw... I'm unsure about the Cummins DI guys and alternative fuels. I've just read that the early IDI VW guys usually state that the WMO better suits the IDI engines.
Maybe the fact that the AHU is still a VE pump is the difference between the later styled TDIs.
-Todd
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my IDI wears out a change of oil in roughly 3500 miles..
i NEED a frantz filter..
my oil isnt even oil anymore, when i change it in the IDI..
its black like tar, and it sheens off the drain plug like water when i drain it.. :o
What are you doing to your engine; are you on dirt roads all day long? I do 5k oil changes and it looks like hot, black oil when I change it. I'm planning on stretching to at least 10k.
-Todd
my engine gets HOT when i boost it up.. it sees 1600* pretty easy..
no piston cooler jets either.. or oil cooler..
my oil gets worn out in 3500 miles..
its not quite as bad as it was with the K24, or the VNT15 (it actually didnt sheen off the drainplug last time i changed it)
but it still wears the oil out.. and fills it with soot..
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Sounds like you'd benefit from a synthetic. Stretch the change interval, and it may not be a huge price difference.
-Todd
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a frantz filter and a good quality synthetic lube you'd probably be able to run a brand new engine for unlimited miles.
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Synthetic oils are not all that "awesome". Synthetics break down just like dino does when repeatedly heated and cooled. This prolonged change interval almost seems like B.S to me sometimes lol.
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It's all about proper filtration. Diesel locomotives never change the oil, they just change filters and top up the oil. They are meticulous about oil testing and making sure that it is clean and the additives are OK. Not sure if they even run synthetic.
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It's all about the cost:benefit ratio. We have such small oil pans it's not worth the $40 lab fee to check and see the condition when the vehicle only uses $30 worth of Rotella. If you've got a locomotive then the $40 lab fee is peanuts compared to the cost to do a change. Once you're getting in to the 10-15L class the cost of the lab fees and getting another 5000km from the oil versus the cost of a change starts to become economically beneficial.
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The Scheaffers oil I run comes with a postage paid container to send your 4 oz sample back to them. If you run their oil the oil analysis is free of charge. No matter how much you want to take a sample. I have sampled mine every 4,000 miles as I was having a soot issue and wanted to track it better. If you run another brand of oil they will do the analysis but they will charge you.
So the cost of the sample for my oil is 0.00 USD shipping included.