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Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: bgbmxer on March 20, 2011, 02:20:50 pm
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so im in the process of taking my 84 mk1 and convering it to from a na to turbo and haven been able to find any information on where i need to pull coolant from to feed the turbo. i was planning on using the heater core lines but if there is any better way any advice would be appreciated. also for the oil feed comes from the pipe plug on the mount for the oil filter correct? thanks brandon
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If you're talking about the standard OEM turbos used on TD engines (T2/T3/K03/K14/K24) there is no coolant feed... they are cooled by oil only.
And yup, the oil feed for the turbo comes from a M12 fitting at the top of the turbo oil filter flange... the non-turbo flange probably just has an M10 fitting for an oil pressure gauge and the like.
Someone else who has done the conversion can confirm. ;)
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first off, this thread is in the wrong section :)
second off, the turbo oil filter flange, is indeed special.. the n/a unit will not work.
the only turbos available on VW diesels that are water cooled, are not available in the USA..
what turbo do you have that needs water cooling? not one off a US or Can spec TD, thats for sure.
anyways, you might get more help if you posted up in the IDI section, being that you are working on an IDI diesel :)
hope we can help..
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first off, this thread is in the wrong section :)
second off, the turbo oil filter flange, is indeed special.. the n/a unit will not work.
the only turbos available on VW diesels that are water cooled, are not available in the USA..
what turbo do you have that needs water cooling? not one off a US or Can spec TD, thats for sure.
anyways, you might get more help if you posted up in the IDI section, being that you are working on an IDI diesel :)
your right this is in the wrong section and if i knew how to move it i would. or if a mod can do it that would be great.
the turbo i am using is off of a 2.2 2.5 chrysler since i have plenty of them it is a mitsubishi turbo and it is oil and water fed.
second the the oil filter flange does have a pipe plug in it not sure of the size can someone tell me the difference? and if i cannot use the stock flange anyone have one for sale
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first off, this thread is in the wrong section :)
second off, the turbo oil filter flange, is indeed special.. the n/a unit will not work.
the only turbos available on VW diesels that are water cooled, are not available in the USA..
what turbo do you have that needs water cooling? not one off a US or Can spec TD, thats for sure.
anyways, you might get more help if you posted up in the IDI section, being that you are working on an IDI diesel :)
your right this is in the wrong section and if i knew how to move it i would. or if a mod can do it that would be great.
the turbo i am using is off of a 2.2 2.5 chrysler since i have plenty of them it is a mitsubishi turbo and it is oil and water fed.
second the the oil filter flange does have a pipe plug in it not sure of the size can someone tell me the difference? and if i cannot use the stock flange anyone have one for sale
as for the difference, vincent already commented on that, but i guess we will touch again on it.. one has a pipe plug, and M10 threads, and the turbo one has a connection where that pipe plug would be, and M12 threads.. so, whats the difference between 10mm and 12mm? i would say about 2 mm.. lol..
and for your turbo, i would avoid using that., its gonna be laggy as all hell..
gasser turbos do NOT work well on diesel engines..
ive got a grip of TD04H turbos too, and i just wont run one on my diesel.. they are only good for like 12 psi, and its gonna be laggy..
if you do use that turbo tho, just dont hook up the coolant lines..
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also, Vincent might be nice, and move this topic for you :)
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first off, this thread is in the wrong section :)
second off, the turbo oil filter flange, is indeed special.. the n/a unit will not work.
the only turbos available on VW diesels that are water cooled, are not available in the USA..
what turbo do you have that needs water cooling? not one off a US or Can spec TD, thats for sure.
anyways, you might get more help if you posted up in the IDI section, being that you are working on an IDI diesel :)
your right this is in the wrong section and if i knew how to move it i would. or if a mod can do it that would be great.
the turbo i am using is off of a 2.2 2.5 chrysler since i have plenty of them it is a mitsubishi turbo and it is oil and water fed.
second the the oil filter flange does have a pipe plug in it not sure of the size can someone tell me the difference? and if i cannot use the stock flange anyone have one for sale
as for the difference, vincent already commented on that, but i guess we will touch again on it.. one has a pipe plug, and M10 threads, and the turbo one has a connection where that pipe plug would be, and M12 threads.. so, whats the difference between 10mm and 12mm? i would say about 2 mm.. lol..
and for your turbo, i would avoid using that., its gonna be laggy as all hell..
gasser turbos do NOT work well on diesel engines..
ive got a grip of TD04H turbos too, and i just wont run one on my diesel.. they are only good for like 12 psi, and its gonna be laggy..
if you do use that turbo tho, just dont hook up the coolant lines..
as for the oil feed line is the only difference the size of the hole and the threads itself making it not usable of is there a restricter? if its just the size of the hole i see no reason it couldnt be drilled and tapped to make work if someone could explain why that would be great.
as for the coolant lines yes that is a possibility but it does help keep things cool.
yes the turbo is probably gonna be laggy just for the simple fact it is not small for the displacement of the engine but its smaller than the garretts that i have laying around also. but as for only being good for 12 psi i disagree. i have seen them pushed way past that many times and the stock boost settings for the car it comes off of go to 14psi. weather they are effeciant above 12psi probably not. im hoping for less lag with a better intake and exhaust manifold and full exhaust but we will see. i am open to being told what will work and what wont though ;D
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why beat your head on the wall, when others have already done it, and told you that it hurts?
why not get an appropriate diesel turbo that will spool up before 4000 rpms?
thats what im getting at, sure, its a turbo, its gonna make boost, but if its making boost above the engines efficiency range, then what god is it really?
a 1.6TD is about out of power @ 4000 rpms, and that turbo is just gonna be coming to life..
sure, your gonna be turbo charged, but its gonna be smokey, and slow on the bottom end.. your going to have a very limited powerband.
just because the turbo is small, does not make it suitable..
diesel turbos have bigger hot sides than cold sides (.48 cold/.42 hot) and gassers are opposite (.42 cold/.48 hot) and i was just using those numbers for examples..
i have given you some food for thought, now you just have to decide if you are going to join the club at the bloody wall..
sell off some of those junker TD04H turbos, and buy a real diesel turbo, or a VNT if you really want a sweet turbo..
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why beat your head on the wall, when others have already done it, and told you that it hurts?
why not get an appropriate diesel turbo that will spool up before 4000 rpms?
thats what im getting at, sure, its a turbo, its gonna make boost, but if its making boost above the engines efficiency range, then what god is it really?
a 1.6TD is about out of power @ 4000 rpms, and that turbo is just gonna be coming to life..
sure, your gonna be turbo charged, but its gonna be smokey, and slow on the bottom end.. your going to have a very limited powerband.
just because the turbo is small, does not make it suitable..
diesel turbos have bigger hot sides than cold sides (.48 cold/.42 hot) and gassers are opposite (.42 cold/.48 hot) and i was just using those numbers for examples..
i have given you some food for thought, now you just have to decide if you are going to join the club at the bloody wall..
sell off some of those junker TD04H turbos, and buy a real diesel turbo, or a VNT if you really want a sweet turbo..
makes sense and yes very good info thank you and yes it will be like a honda with a big turbo lol. but my main questions were about the coolant and oil feed and mainly the difference in the oil feed flanges and where is a suitable place to pickup coolant for the turbo from.
im new and how am i going to find out what works without asking?
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When I put a turbo on my 1.6 na I just drilled and tapped the stock oil filter adapter to 1/8 pipe.
I took the turbo I was using to a local hydraulic hose shop to get the metric to -4 an adapter for turbo,
1/8 pipe x -4an fitting for oil filter adapter, and 36" of -4an line, all for $32.
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When I put a turbo on my 1.6 na I just drilled and tapped the stock oil filter adapter to 1/8 pipe.
I took the turbo I was using to a local hydraulic hose shop to get the metric to -4 an adapter for turbo,
1/8 pipe x -4an fitting for oil filter adapter, and 36" of -4an line, all for $32.
thank you for answering my question this was my thoughts exactly just needed clarification.
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With the water hook up, if you have a turbo to take off of something would it not be a good idea to see where its connected on that engine it came off?
you may find it does already hook up to the heater loop on the other engine.
Oil feed as mentioned you can just use a take off from the oil filter head which is M10x1 thread, the same as brake pipes(think thats what they should be on your proposed vehicle, it was only mk3 golfs where the Master cylinder had bigger pipes) you'll find alot of aircooled people just use a T piece off the oil pressure sender/switch hole to feed a turbo, the advantage they have is diesel turbos tend to suit aircooled engines a little better as they are lower reving I mean lets fact it, if its not going to cost you anything/much to install, its worth a try to see how it works.
If you design a manifold with something like a T25/28/3/4 standardized outlet you can always try a turbo and if it doesnt work look for something more suitable which might just bolt right on :)
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people from pa are gay. go to heck
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With the water hook up, if you have a turbo to take off of something would it not be a good idea to see where its connected on that engine it came off?
you may find it does already hook up to the heater loop on the other engine.
Oil feed as mentioned you can just use a take off from the oil filter head which is M10x1 thread, the same as brake pipes(think thats what they should be on your proposed vehicle, it was only mk3 golfs where the Master cylinder had bigger pipes) you'll find alot of aircooled people just use a T piece off the oil pressure sender/switch hole to feed a turbo, the advantage they have is diesel turbos tend to suit aircooled engines a little better as they are lower reving I mean lets fact it, if its not going to cost you anything/much to install, its worth a try to see how it works.
If you design a manifold with something like a T25/28/3/4 standardized outlet you can always try a turbo and if it doesnt work look for something more suitable which might just bolt right on :)
the turbo dodges have the thermostat housing on the head and the coolant flows directly from there to the turbo then back to the the block. im unsure of the coolant flow in these engines so im unsure what will and wont work but i will be hooking it up to coolant.
the manifold is one of those universal 8 valve turbo headers ported out with a standard t3 flange and the intake is off of a gas engine my friend gave me. the exhaust is 2 1/4 the whole way out from the turbo the only restrictions i see are the turbo and the head. time will tell if it spools way late or not
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(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj17/bgbmxer/bcce3233.jpg)
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj17/bgbmxer/d24f932a.jpg)
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like i suggested on fb i would use the coolant hoses that supply the oil cooler on to the turbo
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like i suggested on fb i would use the coolant hoses that supply the oil cooler on to the turbo
You will have to show me what your referring too
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i'll show you my hose then
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With the water hook up, if you have a turbo to take off of something would it not be a good idea to see where its connected on that engine it came off?
you may find it does already hook up to the heater loop on the other engine.
Oil feed as mentioned you can just use a take off from the oil filter head which is M10x1 thread, the same as brake pipes(think thats what they should be on your proposed vehicle, it was only mk3 golfs where the Master cylinder had bigger pipes) you'll find alot of aircooled people just use a T piece off the oil pressure sender/switch hole to feed a turbo, the advantage they have is diesel turbos tend to suit aircooled engines a little better as they are lower reving I mean lets fact it, if its not going to cost you anything/much to install, its worth a try to see how it works.
If you design a manifold with something like a T25/28/3/4 standardized outlet you can always try a turbo and if it doesnt work look for something more suitable which might just bolt right on :)
the turbo dodges have the thermostat housing on the head and the coolant flows directly from there to the turbo then back to the the block. im unsure of the coolant flow in these engines so im unsure what will and wont work but i will be hooking it up to coolant.
the manifold is one of those universal 8 valve turbo headers ported out with a standard t3 flange and the intake is off of a gas engine my friend gave me. the exhaust is 2 1/4 the whole way out from the turbo the only restrictions i see are the turbo and the head. time will tell if it spools way late or not
See I wreckon by the sound of it, its a bit like the way that vw run the oil cooler as part of the block loop where coolant runs from the head out to the back of the water pump and the oil cooler runs in parallel with this pipe running head to pump (the block loop). So maybe do something like that, run it as part of a parallel pipe that runs head to block as then that way water should flow through it but wont restrict the flow of the system.
That certainlly does look like a huge turbo! the one I am thinking of putting on a 1.6NA is about half the size!
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See I wreckon by the sound of it, its a bit like the way that vw run the oil cooler as part of the block loop where coolant runs from the head out to the back of the water pump and the oil cooler runs in parallel with this pipe running head to pump (the block loop). So maybe do something like that, run it as part of a parallel pipe that runs head to block as then that way water should flow through it but wont restrict the flow of the system.
That certainlly does look like a huge turbo! the one I am thinking of putting on a 1.6NA is about half the size!
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That turbo is a Garrett t3 off my Shelby charger which is very small actually. With no head work and free flowing exhaust it would sit there and spool. This is with a 2.2 liter. The mitsubishi turbo I'm using is alot smaller and has less power potential. I would like to make 120 or more horse out of this car and i don't see A turbo half that size doing it
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thats not a TD04H, thats a T3...
that one is going to be REALLY LAGGY..
the TD04H has alot smaller specs than that BIG T3..
even the T3 that came stock on these cars had smaller specs to it than this one.. your not running that t3 are you?
and like i said before, i would not even hook up water cooling unless you are going to have the proper after run pump to keep the coolant from boiling in the turbo after you shut the car off..
everything ive seen with water cooled turbos has a pump that keeps the coolant circulating for a period after the engine is shut off..
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See I wreckon by the sound of it, its a bit like the way that vw run the oil cooler as part of the block loop where coolant runs from the head out to the back of the water pump and the oil cooler runs in parallel with this pipe running head to pump (the block loop). So maybe do something like that, run it as part of a parallel pipe that runs head to block as then that way water should flow through it but wont restrict the flow of the system.
That certainlly does look like a huge turbo! the one I am thinking of putting on a 1.6NA is about half the size!
That turbo is a Garrett t3 off my Shelby charger which is very small actually. With no head work and free flowing exhaust it would sit there and spool. This is with a 2.2 liter. The mitsubishi turbo I'm using is alot smaller and has less power potential. I would like to make 120 or more horse out of this car and i don't see A turbo half that size doing it
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a VNT is about the size of a K03.. i have one, it makes about 120hp.. and spools at about 1500 rpms.. and rocks your socks off!
you would be much happier with an actual diesel turbo, so you could have a complete powerband.. right now, the peak power of your engine is going to be long gone by the time the turbo is good and spooled up..
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1 the turbo I'm using is a Mitsubishi turbo. It is not a t3 and not even close in size. Doesn't use the same cartridge wheels housings nothing is the same but the bolt pattern.
2 since I know about dodges i will speak on behalf of what I know about them. They Are all oil and water fed from the 80s to the present and any time the turbo is colder the better. None of them that I know of have any pump to circulate the coolant when you shut it off. I'm unsure about the holsets on the cummins but I know all the cars are water cooled. Even the vnts on the dodge cars was water cooled
3 it is a teo4 not the tdo4 the td04 Came on the Mitsubishi cars i believe the one I'm using is off of a dodge. And I believe but could be wrong that the te04 is a tiny bit smaller.
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1 the turbo I'm using is a Mitsubishi turbo. It is not a t3 and not even close in size. Doesn't use the same cartridge wheels housings nothing is the same but the bolt pattern.
2 since I know about dodges i will speak on behalf of what I know about them. They Are all oil and water fed from the 80s to the present and any time the turbo is colder the better. None of them that I know of have any pump to circulate the coolant when you shut it off. I'm unsure about the holsets on the cummins but I know all the cars are water cooled. Even the vnts on the dodge cars was water cooled
3 it is a teo4 not the tdo4 the td04 Came on the Mitsubishi cars i believe the one I'm using is off of a dodge. And I believe but could be wrong that the te04 is a tiny bit smaller.
1.) i have a T3, a TD04x, and a TE04H.. i know whats different.. why do you think im answering so much in this thread? (been there, done that)
2.) since i know about volkswagens, i will speak on behalf of what I know.. most VWs have air cooled turbos, but the ones that have watercooled turbos, also have an auxiliary water pump to circulate coolant..
3.)you are right, the tE04h is off the 2.2 chry.. the TD04x is off an eclipse or something.. i had to go look at my turbos to make sure..
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Like I said have you tried this size turbo with other than stock parts. If you don't let it breathe it will never spool.
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i, PERSONALLY have never used one.. but the kid that had my car before me, had a td or te04 fabbed up on his other diesel.. and it sounded cool and all, but it never (not as good as my setup works atleast) worked right.. and define "other than stock parts"
my whole engine is stock. even the fuel pump is a n/a unit.. its a bone stock vanagon long block..
all i did was bolt on a VNT, a mk2 intake mani, and do a couple pump mods..
now my car has traction issues when the boost comes on. its soo cool having 15psi before 3000rpms..
its your project tho, if you feel like you just gotta have a turbo, no matter how far mis-matched to your engine it is, then so be it..
gotta remember, this engine is a 1.6L capable of about 5000 RPMs, the 2.2 it came off of was probably red-lined at 6500..
the 2.2 probably moves almost twice the air of the 1.6, just because it can physically turn more rpms..
you need to have enough exhaust going out to make it spool. but you already know this.. ("if you dont let it breathe, it will never spool")
just remember that you are dealing with:
1.) a 1.6L engine
2.) a diesel
3.) an engine with a head that DOES NOT breathe well at all..
good luck!
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Turbo dodges redline at 7200 but peak power is usually around 4 grand on big turbo setups. The turbo dodge is a 8 valve non cross flow as well. They don't usually breathe for ***. And I'm debating porting the head while I have it off also.
And as for stock parts like stock exhaust mani and exhaust itself. These things are crazy restrictive
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my turbo/exhaust manifold is one piece.. and the VNT's flow surprisingly well.. even with their tiny little manifold..
when does the turbo start coming alive on a 2.2? about 2500 rpms? well that should make it come on at about 3500+ on a 1.6TD..
you dont want the turbo to spool late on a diesel, its going to be way out of its power range by the time you get the turbo spooled.
either way, just build it, and report back how laggy it is, or how wrong i am, either way works! i like it when people prove me wrong with hard evidence..
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thats not a TD04H, thats a T3...
that one is going to be REALLY LAGGY..
the TD04H has alot smaller specs than that BIG T3..
even the T3 that came stock on these cars had smaller specs to it than this one.. your not running that t3 are you?
and like i said before, i would not even hook up water cooling unless you are going to have the proper after run pump to keep the coolant from boiling in the turbo after you shut the car off..
everything ive seen with water cooled turbos has a pump that keeps the coolant circulating for a period after the engine is shut off..
Thats a good point, I forgot all about the aux pumps on the turbo stuff. I know the 1.8T passats and stuff have their aux pumps on ebay all the time. The VR6 had an aux pump too if I remember rightly, although that wasnt turbo.
I think essentially if your going to use that big turbo then maybe look for a smaller primary to get you up to the secondary. You can do a fair bit of guessing with turbos, but only from the point of looking at where a turbo is likely to spool up. For example a small turbo diesel turbo is going to probably reasonably well suited to a low reving aircooled engines. Putting a petrol turbo on the diesel lump will as suggested by ROR20 will mean higher spooling rpm, for example on a subaru impreza the Turbo kicks in around 3000rpm, on a Diesel thats not really going to be that useful, so What maybe it would be worth looking at is where the turbo spools up on the doner vehicles and applying that to your diesel at the very least, although getting the science involved its probably alot different.
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That is a good idea to look on donor vehicles other than the difference in displacement and head flow etc. The Garrett on the charger was fully spooled by 2500 with no exhaust and that was at 14 psi
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the garretts usually were fed by the 2.5 tho werent they?
and even being that they spool @ 2500, thats still going to add about 1k rpms to the spool on a 1.6L engine...
take that same T3, bolt it on a 350 chevy, and it will probably be damn near boosting at idle..
its all about the air you feed the turbo.. if you dont have enough to feed it, its not gonna operate the way you want it to..
(14psi on a T3 is nothing BTW.. its just starting to stretch its legs a bit)
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No garretts were only on the 2.2s and the mitsu on the 2.5 which the mitsu is smaller. And yea that garrets good till about 20 lbs till it gets inefficient. But this was a non intercooled car so 14s plenty of boost for that.
The mitsu I think spooled 7 to 800 rpm sooner on the same engine I think so it might not be to bad if I port everything out
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porting is not going to make up for 900cc's, and 1000 rpms more capability..
but go for it, atleast you will have a real good base ready for a real diesel turbo if you decide to go that way/find one cheap enough..
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Porting is how a Honda that's a 1.6 can run a turbo thats 3 times bigger than the one I plan on using and still make usable boost. Yes they rev higher and have more valves but do you think any 1.6 without tons of head work could ever spin a huge t3 t4 or bigger I think not.
I wish there was room for bigger valves and I would put bigger valves in too
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Gas is a little different than diesel, but I see you have it all figured out. I will love to see a dyno report when you are done. Please keep us posted. It should be great.
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Gas is a little different than diesel, but I see you have it all figured out. I will love to see a dyno report when you are done. Please keep us posted. It should be great.
Is this sarcasm? Or actual interest? And no I do not have everything figured out but there is one guy using the same turbo making big power so why can't I. Im not saying it's gonna work great but I don't see it being that horrible either.
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i think it will work well, dave did 196whp with a t3 to4e which is much larger than the dodge turbo, who cares if its gas or diesel, our diesels rev nearly as high as a gassers especially with the governor mod. the only difference on daves engine was a lightly ported aaz head and a giles pump.
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i think it will work well, dave did 196whp with a t3 to4e which is much larger than the dodge turbo, who cares if its gas or diesel, our diesels rev nearly as high as a gassers especially with the governor mod. the only difference on daves engine was a lightly ported aaz head and a giles pump.
5600 RPMs is a LONG WAYS off from 9000 like most gasser engines torn to make power with oversized turbos..
hondas can spool a HX30, because they spin ~9000 rpms to do it, and the turbo doesnt come to life til 4500 rpms..
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i think it will work well, dave did 196whp with a t3 to4e which is much larger than the dodge turbo, who cares if its gas or diesel, our diesels rev nearly as high as a gassers especially with the governor mod. the only difference on daves engine was a lightly ported aaz head and a giles pump.
We will see. I ordered pipe to fab the downpipe so no turning back now
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i think it will work well, dave did 196whp with a t3 to4e which is much larger than the dodge turbo, who cares if its gas or diesel, our diesels rev nearly as high as a gassers especially with the governor mod. the only difference on daves engine was a lightly ported aaz head and a giles pump.
5600 RPMs is a LONG WAYS off from 9000 like most gasser engines torn to make power with oversized turbos..
hondas can spool a HX30, because they spin ~9000 rpms to do it, and the turbo doesnt come to life til 4500 rpms..
Yea and that turbo is on a how many liter engine factory and is how many times bigger and flows more than the turbo I'm using?
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i think it will work well, dave did 196whp with a t3 to4e which is much larger than the dodge turbo, who cares if its gas or diesel, our diesels rev nearly as high as a gassers especially with the governor mod. the only difference on daves engine was a lightly ported aaz head and a giles pump.
5600 RPMs is a LONG WAYS off from 9000 like most gasser engines torn to make power with oversized turbos..
hondas can spool a HX30, because they spin ~9000 rpms to do it, and the turbo doesnt come to life til 4500 rpms..
Yea and that turbo is on a how many liter engine factory and is how many times bigger and flows more than the turbo I'm using?
lol, i was using it as an example, thats all.. nothing more.
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i think it will work well, dave did 196whp with a t3 to4e which is much larger than the dodge turbo, who cares if its gas or diesel, our diesels rev nearly as high as a gassers especially with the governor mod. the only difference on daves engine was a lightly ported aaz head and a giles pump.
Dont the rods fail around that horsepower?
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Rods fail from torque. If memory serves he was revving pretty high for that.
around 4800 IIRC?
you bend rods at low RPMS..
not high rpms..
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http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=19545.5;wap2
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ok heres the specs of my turbos hopefully someone can post the specs of the turbos on the vws
TEO4H specs:
Compressor housing A/R small
Exhaust housing A/R smaller
Compressor inducer 38 mm
Compressor exducer 53 mm
Exhaust turbine diameter 51 mm
TO3 TII specs:
Compressor housing A/R .42
Exhaust housing A/R .48
Compressor inducer 42 mm
Compressor exducer 60 mm
Exhaust turbine diameter 48 mm
VNT25 specs:
Compressor housing A/R .48
Exhaust housing A/R .64
Compressor inducer 36 or 40 mm
Compressor exducer 52 mm
Exhaust turbine diameter small
TBO3 specs:
Compressor housing A/R .52
Exhaust housing A/R .48
Compressor inducer 45 mm
Compressor exducer 60 mm
Exhaust turbine diameter 48 mm
S60 specs:
Compressor housing A/R .42
Exhaust housing A/R .63
Compressor inducer 48.5 mm
Compressor exducer 60 mm
Exhaust turbine diameter 48 mm
compare away
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the mitsubishi turbo is smaller than the t3 and k24, i don't think he'll have any trouble spooling it
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also found this:
T3 compressor wheel
6 blades
Part number: 409096-0010
Wheel diameter mm (A)60,00
Inducer diameter mm (B) 35,40
Tip height mm (C) 3,00
Wheel bore diameter 6,00
TRIM 35
Or this boosted from jake
Check it out... A blow-up parts diagram with parts numbers for the 1.6lTD Garrett TA0304B is available on-line here (http://www.turbomaster.info/despieces_garrett/465384-0002.php) and specs on the compressors are available here (http://www.turbomaster.info/eng/applications/compressor.php), and turbine wheels here (http://www.turbomaster.info/eng/applications/turbine.php). Referencing the appropriate part numbers to these tables, and using the measurements I took directly from the guts of the 1.6lTD KKK turbo, we can compare these turbos more closely...
garrett compressor:
blades: 6
wheel diameter: 60.00mm
inducer bore: 35.40mm
tip height: 3.00mm
kkk compressor:
blades: 6 major, 6 minor (12 total)
wheel diameter: 60.5mm
inducer bore: 37.5mm
tip height: 4mm
findings: nearly identical compressor wheel OD means pressure ratio capability of the two are about equal. However, ~6% larger inducer bore of the KKK means it can flow a bit more air. There is also a very significantly greater tip height with the KKK turbo (33% greater on the KKK).
garrett turbine:
blades: 11
wheel diameter: 59.00 mm
exducer bore diameter: 49.00mm
kkk turbine:
blades: 12
wheel diameter: 59mm
exducer bore diameter: 49.5mm
findings: except for one additional blade on the kkk turbine, the turbine sections have nearly identical specs.
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first off, this thread is in the wrong section :)
second off, the turbo oil filter flange, is indeed special.. the n/a unit will not work.
the only turbos available on VW diesels that are water cooled, are not available in the USA..
what turbo do you have that needs water cooling? not one off a US or Can spec TD, thats for sure.
anyways, you might get more help if you posted up in the IDI section, being that you are working on an IDI diesel :)
hope we can help..
It's not in the wrong section when the mods move it here.
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first off, this thread is in the wrong section :)
second off, the turbo oil filter flange, is indeed special.. the n/a unit will not work.
the only turbos available on VW diesels that are water cooled, are not available in the USA..
what turbo do you have that needs water cooling? not one off a US or Can spec TD, thats for sure.
anyways, you might get more help if you posted up in the IDI section, being that you are working on an IDI diesel :)
hope we can help..
It's not in the wrong section when the mods move it here.
lol, when i wrote that, this topic was in the TDI section.. then Vincent moved it here for us.
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I think what I am seeing in this thread is digresssion from the orginal question and bickering about whether something will and wont work.
So cooling, lets head back to it.
Something that has crossed my mind is that other than a water coolant line and aux pump for the turbo(which although not fitted to all cars would be an advantage to help the turbo live longer) Is actually other cooling for this, for example you may want to also look at running a bigger radiator if the main cooling loop is going to be under more strain with the turbo heating the system up as well.
Theres also the other thing that I think which is things like piston squirters and an LDA for fuel pump advance so you have a TD to start with as your base and then you can worrk about the turbo spool after that.
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I'd like to plumb the coolant to the turbo off the stock plumbing I don't see a need to run an auxiliary system. As for a bigger radiator I dont know how I'm going to plumb the front mount with the stock rad in place it's going to be tight. But a aluminum rad could be made and better electric fans could be used also.
As for the oil squirters and the lda I'm not sure if I need them as of yet. They don't hurt thats for sure but how does the lda work with the gov mod? Since it's an Na block I don't have oil squirters so I'm just gonna have to watch my egts
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I'd like to plumb the coolant to the turbo off the stock plumbing I don't see a need to run an auxiliary system. As for a bigger radiator I dont know how I'm going to plumb the front mount with the stock rad in place it's going to be tight. But a aluminum rad could be made and better electric fans could be used also.
As for the oil squirters and the lda I'm not sure if I need them as of yet. They don't hurt thats for sure but how does the lda work with the gov mod? Since it's an Na block I don't have oil squirters so I'm just gonna have to watch my egts
i would air cool the turbo, and keep as much heat out of the coolant as possible..
and you dont NEED an lda, or oil squirters.. like you say, watch your EGT. pistons are made from aluminum. and melt around 1250*
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I think what I am seeing in this thread is digresssion from the orginal question and bickering about whether something will and wont work.
So cooling, lets head back to it.
Something that has crossed my mind is that other than a water coolant line and aux pump for the turbo(which although not fitted to all cars would be an advantage to help the turbo live longer) Is actually other cooling for this, for example you may want to also look at running a bigger radiator if the main cooling loop is going to be under more strain with the turbo heating the system up as well.
Theres also the other thing that I think which is things like piston squirters and an LDA for fuel pump advance so you have a TD to start with as your base and then you can worrk about the turbo spool after that.
haha yes alot of bickering with just hear say numbers make for a more constructive conversation.
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Anyone have a diagram of coolant flow? I don't wanna use a aux pump just plumb it with the stock stuff.
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and you dont NEED an lda, or oil squirters.. like you say, watch your EGT. pistons are made from aluminum. and melt around 1250*
[/quote]
The hotter the turbo is the hotter the air charge. So im gonna water cool it.
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the water flow is pretty simple actually, basically forget about the radiator hoses, the water pumps out side flows in to the block, so the outlet on the side of the head towards the transmission is on the out side of the flow, everything else flows in to the pump, so the 2 heater hoses would be good to use to cool the turbo and would basically be the same thing as using the 2 hoses for the factory oil coiler.
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the water flow is pretty simple actually, basically forget about the radiator hoses, the water pumps out side flows in to the block, so the outlet on the side of the head towards the transmission is on the out side of the flow, everything else flows in to the pump, so the 2 heater hoses would be good to use to cool the turbo and would basically be the same thing as using the 2 hoses for the factory oil coiler.
Sweet. Then I'll just use one of the heater core hoses preferably the one flowing out. Of the heater core. This is what I planned i just dont want to restrict flow in a place thats needed
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what would be real sweet is you can actually get a freeze out plug that has a water port built in, i think it comes from a mk4 vr6 or a tt 1.8t or something, but it fits our blocks, then you could run one hose from the back of the block to the turbo, then run a another hose to the return on the heater hose, that would be the cleanest way to do it.
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If you don't use an aux pump, then the coolant WILL boil in the turbo on shutdown. Better to not use the water cooling at all.
...i said something along these lines about 4 pages ago... ???
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what would be real sweet is you can actually get a freeze out plug that has a water port built in, i think it comes from a mk4 vr6 or a tt 1.8t or something, but it fits our blocks, then you could run one hose from the back of the block to the turbo, then run a another hose to the return on the heater hose, that would be the cleanest way to do it.
So they use that as a factory piece? Do one of the vendors sell these?
I could always get a new set of plugs and weld pipe to it.
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If you don't use an aux pump, then the coolant WILL boil in the turbo on shutdown. Better to not use the water cooling at all.
Just like the coolant does on the cylinder walls constantly as it passes by cooling them. Id rather have that boiling than the oil cocing up. I have never seen Any problems with coolant on turbos but plenty with oil and clogging up. This is the first time I have even heard of an aux pump.
Might have to look into one tho
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yeah its a factory part, i'll have to call mike he probably knows what its from
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yeah its a factory part, i'll have to call mike he probably knows what its from
Alright Lmk
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If you don't use an aux pump, then the coolant WILL boil in the turbo on shutdown. Better to not use the water cooling at all.
Just like the coolant does on the cylinder walls constantly as it passes by cooling them. Id rather have that boiling than the oil cocing up. I have never seen Any problems with coolant on turbos but plenty with oil and clogging up. This is the first time I have even heard of an aux pump.
Might have to look into one tho
the cylinder walls and head, are not 500* when you shut them down tho. they are roughly the same temp as the coolant around them..
just build it how you want.. you have asked us for our opinions on your build, and every time we say something important, you ignore it, so you MUST know what you are doing.. and you must have done it before.. so build it and report back, doesnt seem like you need our help AT ALL...
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No I listen to people who have actually answered my questions which you really haven't you say it wont work. Tell me why It won't and how to do it. All you seem to do is contradict my ideas like I have no clue About anything. Everyone else is very helpful I haven't bickered with. You seem to base your facts off hear say while I put some facts up like the turbo thing. You say the turbo is huge but yet I'm told it's smaller than the stock Garrett. I asked two questions neither of which you answered. First you say not to watercool the turbo at all then say the way I'm doing it is wrong. It came from the factory that way. Cars still come with it that way. Can't be to horrible can it? I asked where to plumb into for both the oil and water. The oil question was answered long ago now the water question is answered and your still ranting.
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I installed a water-cooled VNT on my Mercedes 300 TDT. I ran it first without an afterrun pump and it would gurgle for 5 minutes after shutdown on a hot day. The afterrun pump was not overly expensive or difficult to install. The Derale adjustable temp switch was also very good for dialing in a temp that would prevent the boiling without causing the pump to run excessively.
Do you have a link or a sorce for one or am I heading to the jy?
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No I listen to people who have actually answered my questions which you really haven't you say it wont work. Tell me why It won't and how to do it. All you seem to do is contradict my ideas like I have no clue About anything. Everyone else is very helpful I haven't bickered with. You seem to base your facts off hear say while I put some facts up like the turbo thing. You say the turbo is huge but yet I'm told it's smaller than the stock Garrett. I asked two questions neither of which you answered. First you say not to watercool the turbo at all then say the way I'm doing it is wrong. It came from the factory that way. Cars still come with it that way. Can't be to horrible can it? I asked where to plumb into for both the oil and water. The oil question was answered long ago now the water question is answered and your still ranting.
i told you a LONG TIME AGO, that without a coolant pump, it will boil the coolant..
but whatever dude.. get to work.. you got a project ahead of you! ;D
(just because the turbo is smaller, does not mean its going to work good, gasser turbos are different from diesel turbos.)
/endrant.
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the difference is in the sizing gas engines usually have a bigger exhaust side, this mitsu turbo does have a bigger a/r on the exhaust side than the intake side, but the exhaust side is still smaller than our garretts and k24 so he should have no issues spinning it. apparently tho the coolant boiling isn't an issue since many cars let it boil from the factory, i would think the gains of running the water through it with out the auxilary pump surpass any damage boiled coolant could cause or else they wouldn't manufacture cars that way and waste money on the extra manufacturing costs to use a water cooled turbo
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I had an auxiliary coolant pump on and old 5000csq, I'd buy new if I were you because they frequently leaked on older cars but it might be a good place to get the pigtail and any associated mounting hardware. The old audi pumps were run on a timer rather than a temp switch IIRC.
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(just because the turbo is smaller, does not mean its going to work good, gasser turbos are different from diesel turbos.)
Where's the evidence?
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i dont have maps from either turbo to prove my point.. nor do i care enough to actually look up the maps..
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Man, I leave this forum for a while and people get stupid. Its like the entire VW community is afraid to try something different. Guys are just in the last couple years are starting to use H2O/Meth inj., bagging show cars, ect. The rest of the world has been doing this for years. Its like if it hasn't been done, it can't be done. There is another VW forum where people can act like a-holes and not help others, so if that is what you wanna do, go there. This used to be the only VW forum I used, but as my vehicles changed, it no longer is a big help for me. But, people used to be able to get on here and actually get help from people who actually knew stuff, not just critisize and talk out thier butts. Sorry for my ranting, but this is just stupid.
(just because the turbo is smaller, does not mean its going to work good, gasser turbos are different from diesel turbos.)
^^^^ this made me laugh big time. :D Really? how do you figure? Thats like saying that a turbo will never work on a N/A car, or that the IHI VNT from my dad's D-max has a better chance of working on a 1.6idi that the K03 from my 1.8T just because the turbo is off of a diesel??? Our diesels are MUCH more like gasoline motors than almost any other diesel. Instead of just saying that will never work, look at a turbo map and give some factual information. If you need help reading one, I'd be happy to help ;). It's not a perfect match, but neither were the factory TD turbos for making 120+ HP. Givin the small displacement, limited revs, and stupid low price for these chrysler turbos, its a pretty atractive option for those who aren't afraid to try something new. Maybe it will fail, but at least everyone will know then. Once again sorry for my rant, I just hate when people give newbs to a particular scene a bunch of crap for trying to bring something new to the table. We're all here for the same purpose and thats to learn, so give everyone a chance.
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Gents... now we have people being jerky about jerks calling other people jerks... let's cool it with the personal comments.
This thread asked a question: what do I need to do the hook up a water-cooled turbo? Let's stick to facts on that please and thanks.
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Man, I leave this forum for a while and people get stupid. Its like the entire VW community is afraid to try something different. Guys are just in the last couple years are starting to use H2O/Meth inj., bagging show cars, ect. The rest of the world has been doing this for years. Its like if it hasn't been done, it can't be done. There is another VW forum where people can act like a-holes and not help others, so if that is what you wanna do, go there. This used to be the only VW forum I used, but as my vehicles changed, it no longer is a big help for me. But, people used to be able to get on here and actually get help from people who actually knew stuff, not just critisize and talk out thier butts. Sorry for my ranting, but this is just stupid.
(just because the turbo is smaller, does not mean its going to work good, gasser turbos are different from diesel turbos.)
^^^^ this made me laugh big time. :D Really? how do you figure? Thats like saying that a turbo will never work on a N/A car, or that the IHI VNT from my dad's D-max has a better chance of working on a 1.6idi that the K03 from my 1.8T just because the turbo is off of a diesel??? Our diesels are MUCH more like gasoline motors than almost any other diesel. Instead of just saying that will never work, look at a turbo map and give some factual information. If you need help reading one, I'd be happy to help ;). It's not a perfect match, but neither were the factory TD turbos for making 120+ HP. Givin the small displacement, limited revs, and stupid low price for these chrysler turbos, its a pretty atractive option for those who aren't afraid to try something new. Maybe it will fail, but at least everyone will know then. Once again sorry for my rant, I just hate when people give newbs to a particular scene a bunch of crap for trying to bring something new to the table. We're all here for the same purpose and thats to learn, so give everyone a chance.
ok, so the K03 on a 1.8t and the K03 off a TDI are the exact same thing then? they cant be different? just because they are both K03 turbos, and on different engines, they cant be different?
gasser turbos and diesel turbos ARE different..
the specs of them are different..aspect ratios, everything, even wheel diameter sometimes..
diesel turbos are built to spool at low RPMs, and are built to handle the inherently higher turbine speeds of the diesel..
gasser turbos spool at like 3500, diesel turbos spool at like 1800..
like i been saying, GET TO WORK! prove me wrong.. i wanna see it happen.. if your setup works good, i might just be running a different turbo, but i doubt it..
and yes, the coolant will boil inside the turbo once you shut the car off.. you need a coolant pump, or short runs of hose so that it can thermo-siphon the coolant thru the turbo..
and the only way thats going to work is if the coolant comes in from down low on the turbo, and exits up higher, and has a constant up hill path to wherever the coolant is going..
now, bickering aside, and all questions answered, i think its time to start your build thread..
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like i been saying, GET TO WORK! prove me wrong.. i wanna see it happen.. if your setup works good, i might just be running a different turbo, but i doubt it..
As you can see from prior pictures I am already under way with fabrication just waiting for some exhaust tubing at the moment. Gotta make a custom downpipe.
now, bickering aside, and all questions answered, i think its time to start your build thread..
Thanks to everyone who didn't bicker and did actually answer my questions. And as for a build thread why bother you already know it won't work cause you know everything remember. I'll definitly take pictures of the setup. Im in the process of taking everything apart to put valve guides in, valve job, and port matching everything. Without making it flow more air it probably won't spool till late in the rpm band. It's and air pump. Don't over think it.
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Gents... now we have people being jerky about jerks calling other people jerks...
;D
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http://www.spturbo.com/onlinestore/index.php/vw/mk3/vr6/engine/engine-block-parts/vr6-engine-oil-gallery-and-coolent-freeze-plug-set.html
(http://www.spturbo.com/onlinestore/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/p/r/productlarge16195_1.jpg)
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like i been saying, GET TO WORK! prove me wrong.. i wanna see it happen.. if your setup works good, i might just be running a different turbo, but i doubt it..
As you can see from prior pictures I am already under way with fabrication just waiting for some exhaust tubing at the moment. Gotta make a custom downpipe.
now, bickering aside, and all questions answered, i think its time to start your build thread..
Thanks to everyone who didn't bicker and did actually answer my questions. And as for a build thread why bother you already know it won't work cause you know everything remember. I'll definitly take pictures of the setup. Im in the process of taking everything apart to put valve guides in, valve job, and port matching everything. Without making it flow more air it probably won't spool till late in the rpm band. It's and air pump. Don't over think it.
it was hard to not bicker with you, you wouldnt listen to anything i had to say. not even about the coolant pump, or to just leave it air cooled if you cant do it right..
anyways, ive tried to keep all animosity out of my posts for quite some time now.. it seems like you are the one who is still a little butthurt.. like i said, i want you to prove me wrong.. i have a buncha good TE04 turbos, but ive nevet wanted to use one because ive been told they are less than ideal for use on a 1.6TD.. the guy who told me was a reliable source, so i thought.. anyways, sorry if you didnt like how i posted my responses..
i didnt mean for anyone to get butthurt..
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it was hard to not bicker with you, you wouldnt listen to anything i had to say. not even about the coolant pump, or to just leave it air cooled if you cant do it right..
The fact of the matter is the car the turbo is coming off of had 150000 miles and I have never seen any issues with coolant boiling like you say. It's pressurized so it has no where to go. I do listen when facts are given and although I might not use that pump just yet on the car I probably will because it seems like a good idea not only for the turbo but for the coolant in general to circulate due to the fact most cars coolant temp goes up 20 degrees after the car is shut down. But is it actually needed like it's a life or death situation for the turbo and engine definitly not.
As for the teo4 being used on the 1.6 I do think it will work pretty good with all the propper mods in which to make it work. There are even people on this board who are using the exact turbo and making
it work great to something like 180 hp. Which is about the limit for that turbo anyway. The hardest part of the whole making it work is the fact that the flange patterns are different and an adapter has to be
made for the header which you have to buy also.
The reason I bicker is because other people have answered the questions in which i have asked and any time I say about plumbing it in the way the turbo has been run for 20 years now you tell me it is incorrect. Or for example you told me the Na oil filter adapter would not work and when I asked why instead of giving the facts why you basically said because it wouldn't. This Is not helping me out. Saying the hole will not flow enough oil would. Which was eventually answered by someone else and it will be getting drilled and tapped soon no big deal there.
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And now you guys are bickering about bickering. ::)
This thread is DONE.