Author Topic: Samurai with a 1.6l tuning issues (hey Giles!) (Read 24651 times)

bvanetten · « **on:** August 27, 2006, 02:20:58 pm »

I promised Giles I'd post when I got her on the road so here we go. I put a 1.6l td in my Zuk and I'm in the finishing stages right now. I'm having some tuning issues. The pump should be capable of at hte high end 120hp but I don't think we are at that level.

Here are some stats:

1.6 TD (84 jetta) completely rebuilt
Giles pump and injectors (about 50% over stock with the gov mod)
stock turbo
1.9l head gasket
raceware head studs
rx7 oil cooler
jeep 4l radiator (with evans coolent)
Starion (sp?) intercooler
2 1/2 inch exhaust (straight dynomax muffler)

W56 5 speed Toyota tranny
dual tcases
toyota axles with 4.10 gears
34x10.5 swamper tires

My problem is power and pyro temps. At first I kept the wastgate hooked up and I see a max of 10lbs boost. Light haze under full throttle. Boost doesn't start to build until 2500 rpm and doesn't start to really ramp up until 3000, full boost at 4000+. Pyro temps climed quickly under accelleration

I disconnected the wastegate and bumped up the timing a bit (it was close to stock) The IP has a much more sharp crisp clack to it now. I probably bumped it 1/16th toward the head. Boost still starts around 2500, starts to ramp up at 3000 and full boost at 4000+ is in the 15 to 18 lb range. Pyro temps clime quickly until the boost gets to about 10lbs and then they start to slow down.

In third gear cruise
2500 rpm, 40mph, 700 degrees, maybe 1lb boost
3000 rpm, 48mph, 800 degrees, 3 lbs boost
3500 rpm, 56mph, 1050 degrees, 6 lbs boost

4th gear is an absolute dog. If I shift from 3rd to 4th at about 3500 4th puts me at just under 2500 rpm. It can barely keep up and will slow down at the hint of a grade or headwind. 4th is just not usable. Forget 5th!

So what do you guys think? Am I asking this motor to opperate a too low an rpm? I want to be able to maintain 70mph on a flat road.

DVST8R · « **Reply #1 on:** August 27, 2006, 04:01:39 pm »

Try unpluging the wastegate line and going for a drive. Make sure the BOV is plugged first! Try and keep the turbo under 30-35psi, depending on how much fuel you have this might be difficult under hard acceleration. Then report back. If it is still spooling slow its time to add more fuel. I have a feeling though it is a boost control issue though. For 120hp you will need to be running at ~ 24 psi with a light haze.

jtanguay · « **Reply #2 on:** August 27, 2006, 04:29:46 pm »

sounds to me like your turbo needs a rebuild, and or some wastegate repair. Leaky wastegate? wastegate stuck open maybe???

bvanetten · « **Reply #3 on:** August 27, 2006, 04:43:19 pm »

wastegate is unplugged. I put a small bolt in the BOV to keep it from opening. I plan on making a plate to cover the BOV hole but for now I just kept it from opening.

The most boost I have seen is about 18 to 20 psi at about 4000 rpm.

I'm running the larger garret turbo that it came with so I'm expecting to see a bit more lag but not this much.

bvanetten · « **Reply #4 on:** August 27, 2006, 05:28:05 pm »

Hmmm. The turbo is the only thing I haven't rebuilt. The donor car showed 173k on the odometer so the turbo probably has that much on it.

So rebuild or replace? Given what I'm asking this motor to do maybe the stock garret isn't the way to go. I'm not looking for high rpm power. Given my setup what would you suggest for a turbo?

Dr. Diesel · « **Reply #5 on:** August 27, 2006, 09:46:13 pm »

agree with all what was said above, especially the 24+psi=120+ hp.
just for now, shove a 1 inch length of broomstick into the safety valve hose and clamp it in place. That way, if it is opening, the air has no way of escaping and dropping boost potential.

given your vehicle type, and it's nature, maybe you should consider going to a smaller turbo, like a T2 from a 1.9L and make the lower revs useful. A smaller still K03 will give you full boost as low as 1200rpm. You can squeeze 15 psi out of a healthy k03, all at a very low RPM. Sounds like that might be way more useful for your application than a laggy, higher boost setup.

bvanetten · « **Reply #6 on:** August 27, 2006, 10:12:49 pm »

Safety valve? The wastegate can has small and a large hoses that run to the turbo. I have them both plugged. Is the large one what you are talking about?

So what are the usable boost ranges for a T2 or a K03? Maybe I need twins! :twisted:

I geared this thing for hiway use when in high range and I have dual transfer cases for low and extra low gearing while off road. So...

75mph with my tire size in 5th gear puts me at 2800 rpm. Fully loaded I should come in around 2800 lbs but it has quite the frontal area and is about as areodynamic as a barn door. So I guess the right question to ask is what turbo/wastegate setup will fit best in this senario? And what amount of boost should I be running at?

Dr. Diesel · « **Reply #7 on:** August 28, 2006, 02:16:10 am »

the safety valve is the black plastic valve mounted on the passenger side (or in your case, front end) of the intake manifold. As a safety feature, when the manifold pressure exceeds 11psi +/-.5 it opens to prevent overboosting in the event of a wastegate failure. It's commonly referred to on here as a blowoff valve. I'd expect even a garrett to make more pressure than that with a disabled wastegate. Something's not right, either the safety valve is still opening (just a little would make a big difference) or the wastegate/turbo is damaged or worn out.

I've been having excellent results on a customer's rabbit, using a T2. (similar to K14) He's running 14psi unintercooled on a 1.9L. Spoolup is fairly early, and makes good top end power. The last 2psi boost increase was not quite as effective as the preceeding 2psi increase, so I'd say on that combination, 14psi is the point where intercooling should be introduced. A friend ran this very turbo on a 1.9L to 18psi intercooled no problem. He said it'd do 20 easily. I'd probably keep it around 16 for daily, driving in your setup though. That should make enough torque to pull your highway gears.

Giles@PerformanceDiesel · « **Reply #8 on:** August 28, 2006, 08:39:54 am »

hi bvanetten

glad u have it up and running.

did u manage to set the pump and camshaft timing right?
what did u set the pump timing?

Bryson could be right about the turbo. if u can find a smaller turbo
to try that would be good.

your gearing seems really tall for that engine combo u might have
over done it a bit. prob with the big wheels it's adding a real drag with
the extra weight to turn them compared to 14" on a VW.

let me know or call me if u want.

Giles

bvanetten · « **Reply #9 on:** August 28, 2006, 12:37:51 pm »

Looks like I'm in the market for a T2. Where does one find one of these?

jtanguay · « **Reply #10 on:** August 28, 2006, 02:12:52 pm »

I would love tall gears right now... 100km/h @ around 2900-3000 rpm :cry:

deepmud · « **Reply #11 on:** August 28, 2006, 05:40:59 pm »

hey bruce. From my experience with my 1.9td, your 1.6td with Giles pump should be fine - I really think there is something weird with your turbo. I assume you checked it for play, and free spinning? How about the impeller blades? Put up some pics?

To put the stats on on this forum too - we have similar loads = big tires, barn door aero, same weight. My gearing was stock sammy, about 5.29, but you should be able to have close enough gears just putting it in 4th. I was about 3100 rpm at 60mph, in 5th, with the 35" Baja Claws. For comparison, my old 85 Cherokee with the Renault 2.1td was geared for 2800 rpm at 65, and it weighed a LOT more, did just fine hauling that rig around, with 80hp and 130ft-lbs (at 2800 rpm). It only had 10psi boost, and a really bad flow-design intercooler.

I was always wishing for 6th or 7th gears in my rig - lots and lots of power just not tall enough gearing. My dad's 1.6td with 31's and stock gears does 65 ok, but he's not modded much, so he isn't at "excessive power" like I was. He does get 35mpg at 60 tho'.

bvanetten · « **Reply #12 on:** August 28, 2006, 06:01:35 pm »

Anyone have the exhaust and compressor AR for a T3, K14, and K03?

bvanetten · « **Reply #13 on:** August 28, 2006, 06:40:29 pm »

Hey mud, I was hoping you would chime in. I'm gonna try and "un-stick" the WG on this T3 first (read WD-40 and a BFH). If it runs right and I can live with the preformance I'll have it rebuilt. Otherwise I'll be looking for a more compatible turbo for my application.

I feel like I'm trying to do the reverse of what everyone else is trying to do with the 1.6 with making it rev and build power in the upper rpm ranges. If I could get it to shine in the 2500 to 3500 rpm range I would be a happy camper.

DVST8R · « **Reply #14 on:** August 28, 2006, 07:18:44 pm »

Definatly somthing up with the turbo, with the wastegate unpluged you should easily hit 30psi+. Right now I am rocking an almost stock 1.6TD, and my max boost is 23psi.

Here are my mods:

Removed, and blocked off saftey valve / BOV (whatever you want to call it).
Turned starwheel up a couple turns
Super cut fuel pin. (hillfolker posted pics of his, mine looks similar)
I have NOT adjusted the max fuel scew.
Unpluged wastegate.
I only have enough fuel to spin the turbo to 23psi or so. The only smoke I have is if I lug the engine at low rpm's, with lots of throttle imput and even then it is a haze at most.

I would guess I'm @ about 75WHP I cruise with a bunch of mkII 8v's on almost a nightly basis, and I am heavier then most as I have heavy aftermarket wheels and a full recaro interior, with amps and subs... and I keep pace with any of them, and out pull them on most hills, and @ highway speeds.

Imho, I would say that the stock T3 is a good size for you, as the T2 will give you egt concerns. I think that you just need a rebulid on the turbo, and an additional 1/2 to 1 turn on the max fuel screw.