Author Topic: Samurai with a 1.6l tuning issues (hey Giles!) (Read 24653 times)

bvanetten · « **Reply #45 on:** October 25, 2006, 11:32:01 pm »

So, I couldn't wait until this weekend... skipped out of work early! I locked the cam and looked at the flywheel and it was retarded. How much? I have no idea, the flywheel isn't indexed that way. A few observations...

The pump lock pin I have allows a bit of slop. It doesen't lock the pump and sprocket tight. There is a fat 1/8th of an inch of play around the sprocket tdc mark. When I set the pin the pump has enough tension in it that it moves the tdc mark on the sprocket about 1/8th toward the head. This is with the pin set.

The pump shaft has a slight bit of play in it also. It is a very small bit of play but it is noticable. Is this normal? The pump has maybe 50 miles on it.

I'm trying the wire in the injector hole method first. I'm using wire from a coat hanger. The problem is I am unable to notice when the piston has come up so I end up turning it past tdc. I pull the wire out to see what is up and it is flat! I think I'm going to try putting some sort of spacer between one of #1's cam lobe and lifter and then turn the motor slowly until the piston hits the valve. That should be much more noticeable.

We'll see.

bvanetten · « **Reply #46 on:** October 28, 2006, 08:09:02 pm »

Ok, I've verified TDC. I might have been a degree retarded but it is spot on now. I then re-timed and set the timing to a smidge over 1 mm. After setting the timing I rotated the crank cw a few times and re-checked and the timing stayed the same.

The test drive this morning didn't fare much better that before. Overall egt's might have been 50 degrees lower. I'm still not making any real power or boost until afer 3000 rpm but after talking to Giles and looking at some of the dyno sheets posted on this site that seems right for this setup. I just need to get rid of the egt's.

As a test I stole a kkk turbo off of a friends 1.6td and put it on mine. I don't know what model of kkk it is. It spools quicker but doesn't build as much max boost, the most I saw was 18lbs.

before with t3...
In third gear cruise
2500 rpm, 40mph, 1000 degrees, 2lbs boost
3000 rpm, 48mph, 1150 degrees, 5 lbs boost
3500 rpm, no friggin way.

So now, in third gear cruise with the kkk I see...
2500 rpm, 40mph, 1100 degrees, 5 lbs boost
3000 rpm, 48mph, 1200 degrees, 6 lbs boost

So the known good kkk isn't much better.

I guess I will be re-gearing. I think a better intercooler (better than the old starion one I have) will help. I'm kinda bummed, I was expecting better preformance.

DVST8R · « **Reply #47 on:** October 29, 2006, 12:27:31 am »

Well, now I'm going to say boost leak. Take the intercooler and piping out of the equation if you can do this without too much trouble. Have somthing simple that will be easy to test for leaks. Also check the exhaust manifold for leaks, both at the head, and at the turbo. You are not getting enough air.

It could be the intercooler, maybe it has a big pressure drop, or a hole, or

From all of the 1.6td's I have had, when you bump the fuel and pull off the wastegate line, and by second gear I could wrap a 35psi gauge.

I did a few more minor tweaks to my pump and now I can see 32psi max, I still have the collar on the full load screw (and have not touched it either) and a stock downpipe.

You said that you removed the BOV, did you make a block off plate, or how is it sealed off, you maybe leaking there. It doesnt take much of a leak anywhere to cause your boost problems.

One more thought, try connecting your boost gauge, to the output on the turbo (the one that normally feeds the wastegate) this will tell you very quickly if you have any leaks in your piping or how efficiant it is. If you still have low boost there, check the manifold, and valve lash (as previously mentioned)

deepmud · « **Reply #48 on:** October 29, 2006, 01:23:39 am »

I can't figure out why you have all that heat and no power, if the turbo is making boost, it should be cooler. I only got 1200 running up a steep hill at 70mph and 12psi of boost. More boost would have cooled it down, too. It's not like these motors run around at 1200 egt at 60mph cruise in a Vanagon - and they weigh more than your rig and have as bad or worse aerodynamics.

A VNT would be the shizz tho'.

jtanguay · « **Reply #49 on:** October 29, 2006, 07:51:10 am »

if the wastegate line is disconnected, could it possibly be bleeding boost pressure into the atmosphere? (if not sealed off?)

i would agree that 2nd gear is easy to make 18 psi on a K14. if you cant make that with a super pump, then there has to be some kind of leak.

broken exhaust stud??? i wouldn't think the BOV since it opens at around 12 psi or so, but maybe if it was jammed open with a small leak for some odd reason... intercooler piping should be the easiest to check for leaks.

bvanetten · « **Reply #50 on:** October 29, 2006, 10:09:16 am »

Libbybapa,

I wouldn't mind the off boost proformance if the egt's were manageable when I started to get into the boost, hell even low boost egt's are out of hand I think. I would just have to adjust driving habits.

VNT is not out of the question, that would by way cool but the troubleshooter in me needs to figure this out. Quite frankly, it is driving me nuts.

I promise to check the valves this morning. Seems like these days you can't trust anyone to do their jobs and you end up having to double check their work. Valve lash is one ofthe few things I hae not checked yet.

DVST8R,

All of this testing has been done without intercooler. I pressure tested intake side of the system by taping a cap to the exhaust tip and clamping a pvc end cap to the intake host where the torbo outlet goes. The end cap has an air chuck threaded into it. I feed it compressor air and listen for the whistle. 60lbs of air takes about 3 seconds to go away. The air is not leaking at the manifolds from what I can tell, it is leaking out the exhaust system. I have thought about building a blockoff plate to plug the exhaust housing to eliminate the exhaust sustem.

I blocked off the BOV hole with a big washer that I plug welded. I also beveled the outer edge so the clamp would work better at sealing. A little silicone sealed the deal.

Deepmud,

I hear ya, something is not right in Phoenix. But come hell or high water I'm gonna figure this out. And then maybe a VNT

Ok, here is where I am at.

BOV, gone
intercooler and piping, gone
TDC, good
Timing, good
Charge and exhaust leaks, none
Motor, fresh rebuild
Head, fresh rebuild
IP, GILES!!!!

Injectors, rebuilt
Exhaust, 2 1/2 streight through

Tasks for today.
Double check all ofthe above
check valve lash

I will report back shortly.

DVST8R · « **Reply #51 on:** October 29, 2006, 11:57:12 am »

Just for intrest sake, after you check the valves, plug the line for your boost gauge into your compressor outlet and see what the psi numbers are there.

bvanetten · « **Reply #52 on:** October 29, 2006, 03:18:42 pm »

I have some valve lash #'s for ya. "tight" means the feeler fit but was tight. "To big" is the next feeler gauge up that didn't fit.

Cyl Intake Exhaust

1 .279 .457 tight
.305 to big .483 to big

2 .305 tight .483 tight
.330 to big .508 to big

3 .279 .508
.330 to big .533 to big

4 .330 .432 tight
.356 to big .457 to big

My Bently book says intake valves cold should be between .15 and .25 mm, exhaust valves .35 and .45.

If I'm thinking correctly the thicker the gap the later the valves open and the shorter the duration they stay open. So it looks like I'm at the edge of acceptable tolerances and at the end of the tolerance range that would affect breathing.

I have a bunch of extra shims but I don't have the VW tool that depresses the shim cup. Do any of you have a method to do this without the tool?

Mark(The Miser)UK · « **Reply #53 on:** October 29, 2006, 06:56:17 pm »

quote="bvanetten"]I have some valve lash #'s for ya. "tight" means the feeler fit but was tight. "To big" is the next feeler gauge up that didn't fit.

Cyl Intake Exhaust

1 .279 .457 tight
.305 to big .483 to big

2 .305 tight .483 tight
.330 to big .508 to big

3 .279 .508
.330 to big .533 to big

4 .330 .432 tight
.356 to big .457 to big

My Bently book says intake valves cold should be between .15 and .25 mm, exhaust valves .35 and .45.

If I'm thinking correctly the thicker the gap the later the valves open and the shorter the duration they stay open. So it looks like I'm at the edge of acceptable tolerances and at the end of the tolerance range that would affect breathing.

I have a bunch of extra shims but I don't have the VW tool that depresses the shim cup. Do any of you have a method to do this without the tool?[/quote][/color]
Just do it the standard way by removing cam. Perhaps some shim swapping around will improve things.

Is it possible that the 'Giles' pump has not been modified. (accidental mix up between in tray and out tray seeing as he's snowed under :idea:

bvanetten · « **Reply #54 on:** October 29, 2006, 10:04:07 pm »

I pretty sure Giles worked his magic on this pump. For grins I took the top off of the ADL and the fuel pin is far from stock!

I looked up the tool needed for valve shimming, about $50 delivered. It looks rather simple, I think I'll make one.

So how much difference in breathing ability is there between the two ends of the tolerence range? I'm gonna set them real tight and we'll see what happens. Something tells me this isn't all that is wrong.

How freely should the turbo pinwheel spin?

bvanetten · « **Reply #55 on:** February 10, 2007, 11:11:37 am »

I hate to leave a thread unresolved so better late than never! I found a shop who would actually check the timing for me. You would be suprised how many shops wouldn't giveme the time of day when they found out the motor wasn't in the original vehicle.

My home made TDC pointer was spot on. The cam was 9 degrees advanced and the pump was 1 tooth retarded. I would say this makes for an unadjustable setup! I'm sure that one of my many attempts to time this was closer that this but it doesent matter, he got it on the money this time. Timing is set to stock #'s now. Giles said to set it to stock settings because he advances it in the pump.

So now we have less smoke at idle and throughout the rpm range. More power and less egt's. Turbo lag is still terrible. We start spooling at around 2500 to 2800 and max is about 20 psi at 4500. I wonder if the 33lb flywheel that this toyota tranny uses is somewhat responsible for the lag issues? Also, I regeared the diffs to 4.88 from 4.10, this has helped also... moved rpm's up 500 so...

4th gear
60mph = 2894
65mph = 3135
70mph = 3376
5th gear
60 mph = 2460
65mph = 2664
70 mph = 2869

I can cruise the freeway in 4th at 70. EGT's are still high at 1100 to 1200 degrees and boost is about 10lbs but at least I can get there! 5th gear is still unusable though. If I drop into 5th rpm's drop to about 2900 from 3400, boost drops to 5 from 10 and egt's start to clime (they were already at the edge)

I know my #'s will probably never jive with what most of you are seeing, I'm driving a 2600 lb barn door with big tires and a heavy flywheel! But this setup should still be doable with the right combo, no?

At this point I think I need more air sooner. This means more boost sooner and more volume everywhere. I can't add anymore fuel because temps are already up there so I think a VNT or twins are in order. I'll start a different thread for this.

deepmud · « **Reply #56 on:** February 10, 2007, 02:27:46 pm »

60 psi! :eek!:

you are pressurizing the block - you could easily blow out seals. Pressure leaks past the pistons pretty fast.

I S-T-I-L-L don't like your turbo - too bad you can't swap for a "known-good" but a VNT will be an upgrade regardless, so if you spend money, get a VNT15.

bvanetten · « **Reply #57 on:** February 10, 2007, 02:42:45 pm »

60psi??? I don't know what you are refering to?

I ran a k24 from a friends 1.6 and the numbers were not much better.

deepmud · « **Reply #58 on:** February 10, 2007, 02:49:51 pm »

Quote from: bvanetten

I feed it compressor air and listen for the whistle. 60lbs of air takes about 3 seconds to go away.

I missed this last time

- old news I guess but I wanted to react in case someone else needed to check for leaks. I think just plugging the exhaust while idling would work well enough.

I hope this gets solved soon for you!

bvanetten · « **Reply #59 on:** February 10, 2007, 04:56:11 pm »

I'm leaning toward twins actually. The VNT controller thing scares me a bit. I'm easy to sway though so if their are good reasons to go the VNT route I'm all ears.