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Author Topic: Giles Pump matched to a K14  (Read 863 times)

July 19, 2019, 09:51:19 am

Spokerider

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Giles Pump matched to a K14
« on: July 19, 2019, 09:51:19 am »
  I have a Giles modded pump, that has [ supposedly ] been tuned to use with a K14 turbo....as per previous owner info.

 Can you guys please offer any insight on what form of tuning has been done, to be specifically matched to a K14 turbo? In the realm of the "Giles pump tuning world", would it be a mildly tuned pump? Moderately tuned? I know it ain't gunna be a high performace tuned / mod.

 How well could I expect it [ the pump on a stock aaz ] to run with a Ko3 turbo, tuned the way it currently is?
 How can I de-tune it if needed?.......and what would need to be done to de-tune it, for optimum performance with a Ko3?

 Thanks.
 



Reply #1July 19, 2019, 11:07:49 pm

rabbid79

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Re: Giles Pump matched to a K14
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2019, 11:07:49 pm »
When Giles builds his Super pumps, he asked for things like how much boost and RPMs you're going to run, engine displacement, fuel injector type, etc.  It's anybody's guess how that particular pump was set up.  (Perhaps he keeps track of this by serial number? Maybe you can ask?)

Anyway, something he almost always does is sets the governor much higher.  I don't remember the exact stock setting, but Bosch/VW really sets it pretty low on stock pumps.  With the governor removed, the pump will maintain full fueling much higher into the RPMs.  Getting rid of the governor is good, but it also needs to be complemented by increasing the amount of timing, which is another custom modification he makes.

I don't know if he makes modifications to the LDA pin or not.  This pin is ultimately what will control fueling based on boost.  It's something you can adjust yourself if needed.  Look up "star wheel" or something like that to see how it's done.  It's pretty simple.

But I do know that when I installed a new Super pump on on my engine, it started perfectly, idled perfectly, and produced very little smoke under all conditions.

Again, I don't know about your situation, but the modded pump you have will almost certainly perform better than any stock pump you could run.
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Reply #2July 20, 2019, 10:07:55 am

Spokerider

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Re: Giles Pump matched to a K14
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2019, 10:07:55 am »
Thank you 79, that is helpful info.

 
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 02:42:47 pm by Spokerider »

Reply #3September 01, 2019, 10:27:52 pm

burn_your_money

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Re: Giles Pump matched to a K14
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2019, 10:27:52 pm »
Assuming he built it for stock boost pressures it will work fine. The biggest difference will be in how quickly it increases fueling with boost pressure. Since the K03 spools so fast, the fuel is also increased quickly. The K14 is also quite fast to spool so there isn't going to be much difference. If he built it for higher than stock boost pressure, you're going to get a lot of black smoke at WOT.
Tyler

Reply #4October 22, 2019, 09:56:01 pm

Spokerider

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Re: Giles Pump matched to a K14
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2019, 09:56:01 pm »
Assuming he built it for stock boost pressures it will work fine. The biggest difference will be in how quickly it increases fueling with boost pressure. Since the K03 spools so fast, the fuel is also increased quickly. The K14 is also quite fast to spool so there isn't going to be much difference. If he built it for higher than stock boost pressure, you're going to get a lot of black smoke at WOT.

Thank you for your thots on this.
 I'm going to move forward and put the Giles pump on. Assuming that the pump has been tuned to 20 psi on the K14, what can I do as far as pump tuning to limit excess fuel [ black smoke ] at WOT?
 I'm at 15 psi boost on the Ko3.
 
 What I'm wanting to avoid...….is to swap pumps and find out the Giles pump is way off the tuning mark for the Ko3......and have to put the old pump back on.

Reply #5October 27, 2019, 11:58:51 am

Spokerider

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Re: Giles Pump matched to a K14
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2019, 11:58:51 am »
I've installed the pump, set the timing to 0.93, and the engine runs like crap! Sounds like it runs on 2 and a half cylinders, with much blue smoke out the tailpipe.
 Grrrrr. Have one injector that leaks like a river......even after tightening the hardline fitting more.

 I installed the previous owners hard lines and injectors too. The injectors and pump were last rebuilt by Giles about 50K ago.

 I did note that the color of the fuel that was in it was not the light straw-color of fresh diesel, but rather a deep yellow, and it seemed thick. Hummmm. I did tip the pump up / around to drain this old fuel out, but didn't pull the solenoid to drain the pump head......I should have done so tho….. Hoping I don't have to remove it and open it up to clean it out.

 Another note...….when I started it up, the engine ran at 2000 rpm, on what sounded like 2 1/2 cylinders. Moving the throttle made no diff to the engine rpms. ??
 So......I rechecked the timing of TDC, the cam, the pump, and set the pump timing again to .093mm. It's bang on. The cold start is all of the way forward / not activated when timing the pump.

 About this pump......it didn't have the idle speed screw, the 5" long one found on later aaz pumps, or the associated linkage that connects it to the cold start mechanism and to the see-saw linkage [ fast idle, slow idle ]. Hummm. Did some pumps come like this? There looked to be a "throttle stop" on the pump, on the engine side of the pump. I turned that screw out 3 turns and tried to run it again. This time, it ran slower, but still ran like chit, on 2.5 cylinders, and the injector still leaking badly.

 Today, I'll put my old aaz injectors back in, as I know the work well, and I'll use my old hardlines too, as they are known to be good. I'll see if it runs better.
 
 I'm assuming the previous owner did not use diesel conditioner, and I assume the engine he had this Giles pump on ran well up to the day the aaz con rod let go and went through the block. He said when he got the pump from Giles, he just installed it and did not remove or mod any moving parts, and did not recall removing any idle speed linkage.
  He said that he did not receive the exact core pump that he sent Giles, but got another one in place of the one he sent.
 He also recalled that Giles tuned the pump for 12 psi boost with a K14 turbo, but, he ran it [ eventually ] at 20 psi with a K14.

 Thots guys?



 

 

Reply #6October 27, 2019, 04:01:06 pm

ORCoaster

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Re: Giles Pump matched to a K14
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2019, 04:01:06 pm »
Try wrapping about three full wraps of Teflon tape around the threads of the injectors in question to see if you can get them to seal up tight.  If you can't do that you will never get it to run right.  The pressure internally is not what it should be to bounce the nozzle valve up properly.

I would be running this thing off a bottle until I could get it to act right.  Then start it on the old fuel in the tank.  You need to isolate the fuel system down to the fewest possible variables that you can.  Getting good fuel in and to the pump is the first thing to do. 

Not sure what system you have going on the pump.  Is it a TD pump?  Then I thought those had the levers connected to the cold start lever to adjust low RPM and set a high idle too.  I check my timing with the cold start lever all the way in and then again I pull it out to be sure it is giving me at least 12mm of advance.   Not sure it that is proper number but it has to be something over nothing.  Otherwise it is doing nothing to advance the timing when cold right?

Maybe you have solved your troubles with the reinstall of the old AAZ hardware.  If so, good on you.  If not, and probably so, keep at it.  These wee beasties are a real joy to have, WHEN they work right.  When they don't they keep you off the streets.

Looking to add fender trim, LED lights and a bumper push to the truck soon.

Reply #7October 27, 2019, 06:24:39 pm

Spokerider

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Re: Giles Pump matched to a K14
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2019, 06:24:39 pm »
Thank you for chiming in ORCoaster. Diagnosing problems with these pumps is NOT my forte'. In the end, I can usually correct what needs to be corrected, but figuring just what that is, is the conundrum.

 Before I decided to do this Giles pump swap, the aaz with pump I had was working great. I had no issues except for one hiccup....a gentle surge at 2000-2500 rpm at no-load driving. It was annoying, but still drivable. I decided that now was a good time to swap pumps, since I had acquired the Giles pump 2 years ago, and had intended to swap it in eventually. I thot.....bolt the Giles one on a go! How hard is that?? The rebuilt aaz has maybe 1500 kms on it, and everything, filters, fuel lines, etc, is all brand new. I know there are no problems with any of that.


 Today, I re-installed the injectors and hard lines that I had on previously. I also removed the delivery valves, sprayed BP blaster in the pump head holes to flush, disassembled the valves, cleaned with PB Blaster, reassembled them. Each valve keept it's unique parts, and valve went back into the hole it came out of.

 Then I primed the hardlines, and started it up. It sounded much better upon starting...no clouds of smoke, etc. BUT, it wanted to rev from zero rpm to ?? 3000?? in the 1st second of running. WTF now?
 I shut it off immediately, backed the "idle speed screw" out further, and tried again. Upon starting, it went to ?? 3000? rpm in one second again, so I shut it off asap, as soon as heard it was not a tolerable idle rpm.
 Why is this happening?
 Could it be residual fuel in the engine from trying to run on 2.5 cylinders last night?

 As far as I know, the PO did not mess with pump screws after his engine packed it in. In theory, the pump should run [ an aaz engine ] as good today as it did 3 years ago, the way it's set.
 But it ain't
 The PO told me, he was driving along, and he heard / felt a "bang". It was night. He thot he ran over a stick or some other object on the road. Other than the bang, the engine and everything else ran well...…..until the low oil alarm came on......he pulled over right away, saw the trail of oil on the road, and knew he had a problem. Had his vw towed home.
 Upon inspection, he saw a hole in the engine block, and knew that was the problem. He said he was surprised that the engine ran so well with a hole in the block, and if it weren't for the oil alarm going off, he would have had no idea of the damage.
 At that point, he pulled the engine and it sat unmolested until I showed up and bought it. So, in theory, the pump should be working just fine as is.

 About the pumps idle speed screw......I have read that up until 1985, the pumps did not have that long idle speed screw and linkage, or even the cold start mechanism.  They had a screw with lock nut, on the LDA base, that served as the idle speed screw. To me, this looks to be the same screw as what is called "the residual fuel screw" on the newer pumps today. Is this correct?

 Did Giles send these pumps out like this? missing the long idle speed screw and linkage? Mine does have the cold start mechanism tho.
 I did install a long idle speed screw and linkage, since I had a spre on hand, and since I thot it easier to do it with the pump off the engine, than find out later on that I do infact need it, and then have to re and re the pump again, just to add it.

 Ok......so how do I get this pumps rpm down on start up? and get it to idle?
 I'm not removing the throttle lever and repositioning on the shaft......because I'm sure it has not been dicked with.

 Thanks for your help

Reply #8October 27, 2019, 09:34:37 pm

Spokerider

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Re: Giles Pump matched to a K14
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2019, 09:34:37 pm »

 Today I removed the Giles injectors and the hardlines, and installed the injectors and hard lines I had before this swap began. I know that they are good, function well and don't leak. Doing that made a difference in the running of the engine with the Giles pump. No more smoke, no more rough running, and no fuel leaks.

 I also took the delivery valves out of the Giles pump, flushed the bores with PB Blaster, disassembled the valves and cleaned with PB Blaster, and reassembled them. I did not mix the parts between valves, and made sure each valve went back into it's own bore / home again. They were pretty clean, with no obvious sludge, gum, etc.....so did cleaning make a difference? Dunno…….

 Upon start up today, the engine started easily, seem to run smooth for the whole one second that I let it run. Why only 1 second? Because it hit 3000 rpm in that 1 second. Shut it off, and backed out the [ see-saw ] slow speed idle screw all of the way, backed out the see-saw fast idle speed screw all of the way, backed out the residual fuel screw all of the way.....so the throttle closes as far as it can, and loosened the see-saw linkage screw that hold the two plates together on the see-saw linkage......so the 5" long idle speed screw would not hamper the see-saw linkage from backing all of the way to "slow".
 When I did install the 5" long idle screw [ and linkage ] yesterday.....I made sure it was only screwed in a very minimum amount [ ie ; slow idle speed ].

 That being adjusted......I started it up again.
 Once again, it hit 3000 rpm in 1 second! WTF?

 No one has been into this pump since Giles built it.....the yellow dabs of paint are all un-broken.
 I note that he has a limiting cap on the fuel screw...…...and thus I assume that I *should* have no reason to mess with it's setting......assuming that the PO's aaz ran just fine with it the way it's currently set.

 Now what? Why are the rpms so high? Ditto for the location of the throttle lever in relation to the throttle shaft...…..it *should* be correct the way it is...….the yellow paint dab is un-broken.

 Is it possible to have the pump 180 degrees out?
 The pump sprocket has a key......so the sprocket can only go on in one orientation. And, IRRC, there is only one hole in the sprocket that is the size to fit the lock out pin tool......so it has to be in the correct orientation?

 What, internally...…..if this is where the problem lies...….would cause the pump to rev so high when it should be at idle???

 I'll call Giles as a last resort and ask him...….but me thinks he won't be too enthusiastic in helping me sort this problem, considering I bought his pump second hand...….

 Thots PLEASE
 My zuk sits when it should be running.

Reply #9October 27, 2019, 11:01:58 pm

ORCoaster

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Re: Giles Pump matched to a K14
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2019, 11:01:58 pm »
Could there be a hanging part inside the pump?  Like the throttle spill collar?  Was the pump sitting unused for awhile?  Still doesn't make sense to me why it would be racing to the moon like it is.  Residual fuel in the cylinders would be flushed pretty quickly and you would see a belch of black out the back. 

Not an over run in RPMs. 

I would take a small hammer and go around the top and tap small but sharp wraps on the outside of the case.  Nothing so hard you dent the sucker but some nice clean sharp raps.  Maybe that will free up the linkage.  If that is even the problem.  The throttle lever pulls on the internals of the governor mechanism.  Squeezes springs at the same time it pushes the collar and once it gets past the opening in the secondary shaft that directs the fuel flow it starts to spill it out and you loose RPM/s 

So If you are seeing RPMs that high it very well could be that the fuel screw needs to be backed out some.  Yes, I read your note that it has yellow dots on the settings but that is what causes high RPMs and you may need to break the seal and see if that stops the Revs.

Pull the hose off the IP from the boost just in case that is driving more fuel into the beast too.  Perhaps that cone is being shoved down to early? 

With the pump pulley off you should have that keyway slot in the 10 oclock position that is the number one cylinder position at TDC.  Pumps at 180 out run like crap with smoke and choke all the way. 

Keep going on it.  And maybe a call to Giles would be worth the time.  He may have some simple fix he is willing to share and we could all gain from that. 

Later
Looking to add fender trim, LED lights and a bumper push to the truck soon.

Reply #10October 28, 2019, 12:01:02 pm

Spokerider

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Re: Giles Pump matched to a K14
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2019, 12:01:02 pm »
Thank you ORCoaster for helping me.

 I decided to call Giles. Turns out he was very kind, and willing to listen to my tale of a 3000 rpm at start-up, even though I did not purchase the pump from him personally.

 I gave him the history of the PO aaz, it's demise, and me buying the pump and having it sit for 4 years. I told him that the yellow paint dabs were all intact, so nobody had been inside the pump since he. Also mentioned that I cleaned the delivery valves. He asked if the PO had run veg oil......I know that he did not. He said that was good.
 He suspects that the problem lies in the time that the pump has sat, un-used, and that the "metering sleeve" is stuck? or not working? can recall exactly.....only that the metering sleeve is prolly where the problem lies.

 His suggested options......keep trying it....it may get itself free. Take the top cover off.....may be able to get at the "ball socket" and thus the metering sleeve via that route, to fee it / clean it. Said don't bother tapping the pump with a hammer....it won't do anything. Said I may need to send the pump back to have it disassembled, cleaned and re calibrated.

 Now, I guess I'll research exactly what a metering sleeve looks like, and where it sit's in the pump, internally. Ditto for the "ball socket" part he mentioned.
 
 I don't think it would be wise to remove the top cover with the pump still on the engine?? But.....removing it for bench work is going to be another day of wrenching.....grrrrrr.

 I gotta research how to remove and correctly replace the top cover...…..
 

Reply #11October 28, 2019, 12:32:44 pm

Spokerider

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Re: Giles Pump matched to a K14
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2019, 12:32:44 pm »
Ok, this vid explains what the "metering sleeve" does.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwVTm2-W-JE

 I see now what Giles is talking about.....the metering sleeve is prolly stuck on the plunger close to the pump head.....as in the full throttle position, or close to it. That would explain why, when I moved the throttle to try to increase the rpms [ back when it had the hardline leak and ran on only 2.5 cylinders ], it did not increase the rpms.....because it was already IN that position on the plunger.

 In the vid I see the " socket " on the metering sleeve that he mentioned.

 Ok, how to free it up?? For a 1st attempt, I would like to keep the pump on the engine, drain all of the fuel from it that is possible, and fill it with Diesel Purge....letting it sit to free up the sleeve.
 How do I drain all of, or as much fuel from the pump as possible?

 Can I remove the "pressure regulating valve" [ the 11:32 minute mark in the vid ] to drain the fuel? Is this do-able with the pump installed on the engine?

Reply #12October 28, 2019, 12:58:41 pm

libbydiesel

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Re: Giles Pump matched to a K14
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2019, 12:58:41 pm »
Despite the words on the screen, the pressure regulating valve is not shown until 11:47.   Removing it requires a special socket and not much will drain due to the valve being high on the pump.  If you're really asking about the dynamic advance piston which is at the bottom of the pump, yes, you could loosen the cap and drain the pump there. 

If the pump sat open where the temperature could fluctuate, it is common for the pump to accumulate water inside it and rust internally.  When the air warms, it accumulates moisture vapor.  When the air cools to below the dew point, condensation will form on the exposed metal inside the pump.  The liquid will then sink below the residual diesel in the pump where it cannot evaporate.  Given a bunch of heat cycles, the amount of water in the pump can be surprising and completely destroy the pump.  Long story short, if you store a pump you should make sure air cannot get into.

I would loosen the max fuel screw a full turn.  If the engine still revs high, loosen it another turn.  Lather, rinse, repeat until the rpms do not rev high or you're out 5+ turns (keep track, of course).   
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Reply #13October 28, 2019, 02:07:19 pm

Spokerider

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Re: Giles Pump matched to a K14
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2019, 02:07:19 pm »
Thank you Libby for posting.
 
 Yes......condensation. I stored the engine / pump indoors, so not much temp fluctuation x 2.5 years. The PO stored it in his shed...x 1year, so plenty of temp fluctuation there.

 Yes, I meant the dynamic advance piston. I'll loosen that cap and flush the fuel out, and refill with diesel purge / clean diesel, let sit for a couple of days. Will the diesel purge / clean fuel get into the pump head too? or, do I need to pull the solenoid and add the DP / clean diesel combo into it's bore too?

 I'll try backing out the fuel screw as mentioned and see what happens.

Reply #14October 28, 2019, 11:58:51 pm

ORCoaster

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Re: Giles Pump matched to a K14
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2019, 11:58:51 pm »
I would not mess with that pressure regulator, just a pain to get it off and no value in doing that.

Do you have a small accessory fuel pump? I would use it to push diesel purge into the IP and get the diesel out through the OUT Bolt.
If you don't have a pump how about one of those big syringes that are used for mixing two stroke oil?  Push that on a piece of fuel line and attach to the IN bolt.

Filling it with purge and letting it set will likely do the trick.  That will allow you to keep the wrenching down to a minimum and keep the pump on the engine. 

If that does not do the trick you can still pop the top on the engine and poke around in there with a small pick or stick. 

Best of Luck. 
Looking to add fender trim, LED lights and a bumper push to the truck soon.

 

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