Author Topic: Propane and Nitrous (Read 26336 times)

DVST8R · « **on:** April 13, 2006, 12:41:30 pm »

It seems to me that once a week now I am seeing "propane is like the nitrous of diesels" So I have decided to do a little write up on them. You may remember me from such threads as "More power for your 1.6td" and "200whp or 200bhp" :roll: anyways on to todays subject.

Propane is NOT the Nitrous of diesels! it is a myth of the internet, much like the myth of waking up in a bathtub missing your kiddneys after a night of driniking with a hot girl. Propane is a fuel, as such adding propane to your diesel is much like putting in bigger injectors or a bigger injection pump, with one differance being is that normally as you add propane you loose smoke, where as you add diesel you add smoke. The real problem with propane in an IDI diesel engine such as our beloved 1.5 - 1.9's is the high CR of 23.5:1 this is even to high for propane and its high octane rating of 118 (seems to vary some by sorce just took an average). As such it begins to cause detanation simillar to to high of a CR in a gas motor, with very small doses, from others experiance on this board, the max power attainable is only about 5%, after which it blows the head off...literally!

As such I will not go into how to build a system for ones vw as it is more pain then power.

Propane is a good modification for those with DI diesels as they run a lower CR as well as the combustion area seems to be more to the liking of propane. As such you will see it as a common power adder for any of the big three or newer TDI's.

DVST8R · « **Reply #1 on:** April 13, 2006, 01:03:15 pm »

Nitrous on a diesel is very much like nitrous on a gas motor... imagine that

It is an oxidizer, meaning it adds more air. In adding more air it has one other very important property, it cools that air significantly. As such adding nitrous to your diesel is more like adding an on demand big turbo, with really really good intercooler.

Next you cannot lean out a diesel and blow it up like you can with a gasser, as such nitrous is very safe to play wiht on your diesel. In fact the proper tuning method is to goto your local track and turn your juice on, brining with you a bunch of differnt jet sizes and run it with a bigger jet size each time down, untill you slow down and then return to your fastest one. Because nitrous is an oxidizer and NOT a fuel, the only way it will make more power is if you have an excess of fuel, which is why alot of guys run nitrous with propane on there DI diesels, but since we are here to discuss for the most part IDI I will stick with that. So what this means for us VW guys is that in order for nitrous to be worthwile we need an excess of fuel to burn, the easist way to tell if you have that excess of fuel is go for a run and see if you have a thick black cloud of smoke following you even at max boost. If you do you are ready for nitrous.

Again here I will not go into designing a nitrous setup for your car, as there are lots of manufatures out there who have diesel kits that will work for you app. Nor will I recomend jet sizes as it will very from car to car and even day to day with the same car due to atmospheric conditions. So just cause "johhny" used jet "A" when he was at the track last weekend and your car is setup "close" to the same, this week at the track dosn't mean that jet "A" will be anywhere close to what you need.

My personal favorite way to run nitrous on a diesel which I will warn you right now is expensive, is with a progresive contorler. I run my solonoids empty or wide open, no jet at all, and then use the controler to setup how much nitrous I want to run and how fast I want it to come on. It makes tuning easy, as well as it has good launch control, but unless you are serious about it or just have a bunch of $$$ burning a hole in your pocket you are probably better to run jets.

One last note on nitrous get a bottle blanket as it is nessacary to make repeated consistant runs, nitrous performs the best at 1425-1450psi as such it will need to be heated or cooled for the best and most consistant runs.

Okay fine this is my last note, :wink: , If you are running your nitrous on the street as most people like to do a remote bottle opener is great, as then if a makeshift showdown occurs you can be at your best, instead of being I would have been able to take him if my bottle wasnt closed in the trunk. If you only use it at the track, it is a waste of money.

That is all for right now. Make sure to tune in again when Cetane Racing brings you such topics as "a 14sec 1.6 n/a" and "Stickers, where are the dang Cetane Racing stickers!?!"

malone · « **Reply #2 on:** April 13, 2006, 01:36:17 pm »

About time someone did a write-up on this. Good stuff.

I find the "propane for diesels is like nitrous for gas" statement annoying too.

Mechdonald · « **Reply #3 on:** April 13, 2006, 02:34:33 pm »

thanks, I always wondered about that - didn't make sense to me as I knew nitrous was a supply of oxygen.

so... if you had a N/A diesel with a TD pump (with the LDA) could you hook up nitrous and let the pressure control the LDA?

DVST8R · « **Reply #4 on:** April 13, 2006, 02:37:37 pm »

Quote from: "Mechdonald"

thanks, I always wondered about that - didn't make sense to me as I knew nitrous was a supply of oxygen.

so... if you had a N/A diesel with a TD pump (with the LDA) could you hook up nitrous and let the pressure control the LDA?

:wink:

Mechdonald · « **Reply #5 on:** April 13, 2006, 02:53:15 pm »

neat - I have an extra n/a motor (pump does not have the LDA - yet) that I was wondering what to do with. Now I know it has potential.
Care to shed light on how to get excess fueling from a N/A pump? Giles rebuild? other than a Giles rebuild? GTD nozzles? governor mod?

DVST8R · « **Reply #6 on:** April 13, 2006, 03:04:22 pm »

Quote from: "Mechdonald"

neat - I have an extra n/a motor (pump does not have the LDA - yet) that I was wondering what to do with. Now I know it has potential.
Care to shed light on how to get excess fueling from a N/A pump? Giles rebuild? other than a Giles rebuild? GTD nozzles? governor mod?

This really should be moved to its own thread in IDI engine, but in short... Yes.

A govoner mod would be done in a Giles performance rebuild, and is your best bet, and either gtd's or when ever fspgtd relases his monster nozzles.

I will only leave this here for the next day or so and then I will delete it I like to keep the FAQ on track and simple, I recomned deleting your reply and moving it to its own thread.

hillfolk'r · « **Reply #7 on:** April 13, 2006, 08:47:54 pm »

i always had a feeling,,with the hi compression,,,,propane no good makes too many bad things happen in the 'hole,,,nitrous(lol) seems verry safe,,its basically like adding extra "air",because then you can over fuel it easy,if needed,i figure it would clear up smoke,,shoot,,iwould have to carrya 50 pound bottle around,it wouldnt be good,,id be lol'in all the time,wouldnt be able to stay out of the lol :shock:

snootworks · « **Reply #8 on:** April 15, 2006, 12:16:52 pm »

Just curious what you're using for progressive control? I've used progressive controllers on gassers before, and I agree - it's the cats meow for nitrous.

hillfolk'r · « **Reply #9 on:** April 17, 2006, 07:19:10 pm »

Quote from: "snootworks"

Just curious what you're using for progressive control? I've used progressive controllers on gassers before, and I agree - it's the cats meow for nitrous.

im sorrysir,,me?? i dont have lolgas but if i did,id need to fill the bottle daily,,im nuts like that,,,,,i would think a controller that increased lol flow with boost would be nice ,,,, i would think on an na,,you would have to set it up for overfuel all the time,then the lol would clear up the smoke,,maybe a turbo pump on an na,,,,,,oh i get the post further up :idea: ,,turbo pump to add the fuel when the lol is hit,,,,why use pressure to push the lda(big truck guys call it an afc,AirFuelControl) down????you have vacuum from the vacuum pump,,use it like the na setups with the altitude compensator,and pull vacuumunder the diaphram to pull down the lda?

?use one of those "air switches " ive posted about to turn on and off the vacuum signal to the lda,,,or use a solenoid to open vacuum ,and whenthat solenoid is activated,,the lol solenoid is tied toit also,,,,,,?

?hmmmm :idea: :idea:

DVST8R · « **Reply #10 on:** April 17, 2006, 09:14:31 pm »

Quote from: "snootworks"

Just curious what you're using for progressive control? I've used progressive controllers on gassers before, and I agree - it's the cats meow for nitrous.

The last one I ran was a NX maximizer2 or mabey just the originol maxamizer I dont recall for sure, in any case it was complete overkill for my needs and was about $800usd. I think I only used like 5 of the functions ever and only like 3 on a day to day or race to race basis and it has like 30 or so... if you have a bunch of $$$ burning a hole in your pocket, or race competitvly then id highly recomend it as one of the top ones out there, but if your like most of us, there are a lot cheaper less sofisticated controllers out there. :wink:

hillfolk'r · « **Reply #11 on:** April 17, 2006, 11:18:13 pm »

i dont know too much about it,,but lookin at the parts avalable from NOS ,,couldnt ijust get a "fogger" nozzle,and plug the fuel side, a nos solenoid,stickit in the intake,like my water injection, or actually you could stick it in the compressor side,and say see ya?? yea progressive etc,is nice,,but im talkin lo buck,,,,,, like iwouldnt do it unless it was less than 150 right now,,im tapped out :cry:

HarryMann · « **Reply #12 on:** April 22, 2006, 08:26:42 pm »

Could this potentially be used to fill the 'hole' before the turbo starts to get up to speed. Maybe 1500 ~ 2000 rpm, or help kick it in (using the lda idea to match fuelling)?

DVST8R · « **Reply #13 on:** April 23, 2006, 02:48:56 am »

Quote from: "HarryMann"

Could this potentially be used to fill the 'hole' before the turbo starts to get up to speed. Maybe 1500 ~ 2000 rpm, or help kick it in (using the lda idea to match fuelling)?

Yup.

DVST8R · « **Reply #14 on:** April 23, 2006, 02:57:18 pm »

Quote from: "hillfolk'r"

i dont know too much about it,,but lookin at the parts avalable from NOS ,,couldnt ijust get a "fogger" nozzle,and plug the fuel side, a nos solenoid,stickit in the intake,like my water injection, or actually you could stick it in the compressor side,and say see ya?? yea progressive etc,is nice,,but im talkin lo buck,,,,,, like iwouldnt do it unless it was less than 150 right now,,im tapped out :cry:

Sorry I totally missed this post :oops:

In anycase that is essentially what a "dry" setup is. Before the controller I ran a nozzle from a dry setup that a friend gave me when he went from a v8 to a 4 banger, and just adapted his nos system. I had it tapped into the top of the intake manifold elbow, pointing straight down (as I look back on it now, probably not the bes setup as 2,3 where probably running alot leaner then 1,4 but then again they always are base on that intake manifold... but that is another story) I then ran just a nitrous solonoid (with whatever sized pill I happend to feel was right for the conditions) A saftey swtich (also known as an arming swtich) and a WOT swtich, Relay, -3an lines to the bottle and finally a purge setup. Most of my originol setup was used pieces from friends or swap meets and cost me about $50 + a bottle (got it used as well for about $75) so for $125 and about a half days work to install it plumb it ect.. I had a setup that they sell for like $700 :roll:

I kept that basic system and added a remote bottle opener, a blanket, and then eventually the progressive controller. If you take your time and piece it together you can have a good system for under $150.