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Author Topic: Propane and Nitrous  (Read 26335 times)

Reply #15April 23, 2006, 03:03:59 pm

DVST8R

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Propane and Nitrous
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2006, 03:03:59 pm »
Couple more helpful tips;

1). Check your system for restrictions other than the jet. Your jet may not be the smallest restriction in your system, therefore not allowing you to get the most out of your system as well as not giving you full tune ability of the system.

You should check your nitrous line sizes, mostly between the solenoid and the jet. If you are running a -3an hose, most likely the inner crimp will be .079, meaning anything larger than this in a jet will yield little to no change in flow or performance. Nitrous companies produce -4an hoses that have a -3an nut on one end. Since this uses a larger hose (-4), the inner sleeve on this -3an end will have a larger inner diameter (most are .144 to .154). This will ensure that the jet remains the smallest restriction and therefore the final tuning tool in the system. Also check the fittings and nozzle used and keep the solenoid orifice size in mind too. You can always run a larger solenoid or two solenoids/two nozzles to get more flow.

2) Also, if running more than one jet, don’t assume two .050 jets are the same as a single .100. Flow is basically based on pressure and cross sectional area of the jet. This is helpful is you are running two systems that get staged during the run or if you run two jets in different spots in the intake tract on the same stage (1 jet pre IC and and 1 jet post IC, etc.). Below are a couple of formulas you can use to go from multiple jets to a single jet;

From multiple jets to a single jet,

Dia. X Dia. X .7854 X N = total jet area
Where N is the number of jets and Dia. is the inside diameter of the jets

As an example we will compute two .050 jets.
.050 x .050 x .7854 x 2 = .003927 total area

Now that we have the total area we need to compute what single diameter jet the total area equals. And it goes like this;
AREA / .7854 X SqRt
.003927 / .7854= .005
.005 times square root (just hit the square root key) = .070710

Rounded off = .071 jet.
So two .050 jets when flowing at the same time are equivalent to a single .071 jet.

The next example is if the two jets used are different sizes (a .050 jet and a .085 jet);
.050 x .050 x .7854 x 1 = .0019635 (a single .050 jet area)
.085 x .085 x .7854 x 1 = .0056745 (a single .085 jet area)

Add these two areas together to get the total jet area

.0019635 + .0056745 = .007638 (total jet area)

Now that we have the total area we need to compute what single diameter jet the total area equals.

.007638 /.7854 = .00972498
.00972498 times square root (or just hit the square root key) = .0986153

Rounded off = .099 jet.
So a single .050 jet and a single .085 jet when flowing at the same time are equivalent to a single .099 jet.


Got it? Good, cause now I'm confused...
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Reply #16May 05, 2006, 01:47:08 pm

RabbitJockey

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Propane and Nitrous
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2006, 01:47:08 pm »
you should hear all the kids who threw up a fuss when i said about running nitrous on a diesel, and when i said about running both.  they tried to tell me that nitrous will hardly do anything, if it does something at all, and when i asked why, the answer is, because it's a diesel.  which obviously it is not a reason.  and when i said how nitrous work,  because it is 1/3 oxygen which quickly breaks down in cobustion, and in the atmosphere we only have 21% oxygen, so theres a big power boost, plsu it cools all that air down adding even more air.  but of course they told me it was just cause the air is colder.  after they wouldn't shut up about it, i just starting giving them these  :roll:
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Reply #17April 30, 2007, 12:20:20 pm

stewardc

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Propane and Nitrous
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2007, 12:20:20 pm »
Being from the propane industry, I found this article in a trade publication enlightning.

What it is...and why:

     Simply stated, Propane (LPG) Fumigation is the introduction of gaseous propane into the air intake of a diesel engine for the purposes of attaining more power, economy, or both. The parallel is often made between fumigation and using Nitrous Oxide on gasoline vehicles to achieve a power increase. Basically, this analogy is correct, although the properly implemented use of LPG on a diesel engine will actually result in a better-running engine without the possible damaging effects that N2O has on gas motors.
     Exhaust emissions are reduced as a result, with lower quantities of unburned hydrocarbons and fewer particulates (smoke). LPG fumigation will even clean up the odor of diesel fuel in the exhaust, making the smell from the tailpipe of an engine utilizing it much less objectionable.

How it works:

     Introducing LPG gas into the combustion air intake of a diesel engine acts as an accelerant, promoting the even burning of the diesel fuel, and more complete combustion, resulting in more power being produced. Many web pages and forum posts will call LPG a "catalyst" but this is not correct, as LPG creates no change in the molecular makeup of either the air or the diesel fuel.
     Propane by itself will not self-ignite inside a diesel-fuel compression-ignition engine. During the compression stroke, the air/LPG mixture is compressed and the temperature is raised to about 400?C, not enough to ignite the LPG, which has an ignition temperature of about 500?C. When the diesel fuel is atomized into the cylinder under high pressure, it immediately self-ignites (diesel ignites at about 385?C.), and causes the LPG to burn as well. Since the LPG is in mixture with the air, the flame front from the diesel spreads more quickly, and more completely, including igniting the air/fuel mixture which is in contact with the cylinder walls, which are cool in comparison to the super-heated air inside the combustion chamber. Much of the cleaner burning of the fuel is attributed to this ignition against the "cooler" components of the engine, and accounts for raising the percentage of combustion from a typical 75% for a well-tuned diesel engine running on pure diesel fuel alone, to 85-90% with the addition of LPG. Obviously, this more complete combustion also gives a nice boost in power, with an accompanying increase in fuel economy and reduction of pollutants.

What to Expect:

     OK, here's where we have to draw a distinction between engine types. Normally-aspirated engines require different systems to introduce the gas than do turbocharged engines. The results are different as well.

     Normally-aspirated (N/A) engines will realize only a modest gain in power by the use of LPG gas. Displacing 1% of the intake air with LPG will result in a small power increase, perhaps 5-8%. Nearly no increase in power will be noted at full throttle, assuming that your injection pump is correctly adjusted already. Attempting to provide more gas to the engine will not increase performance, and will in fact lead to a condition not unlike pre-ignition in a gasoline engine. This has been attributed to excessive peak pressure inside the combustion chamber, and may have a lot to do with the fact that most N/A engines are also IDI (Indirect Injection), which means that the diesel fuel is not injected directly into the combustion cylinder, but instead enters a "swirl chamber" where ignition takes place. The flame front then shoots out of the swirl chamber into the combustion chamber, where it combines with the air (and LPG) to force the piston down in a power stroke. Apparently, these engines have a problem in that the flame front exiting the swirl chamber ignites the LPG/air mixture, all of which burns instantly instead of in a metered, controlled manner as it would during the normal diesel injection window.
     I have had satisfactory results on my VW 1.6 N/A engine when adding LPG at a rate of 8-10% of the BTU rating of the diesel the engine is using. It may be possible to turn the fuel up, but I do know for sure that too much fuel does not increase power, and causes the engine to make very unhappy noises.
     It's worth noting that if you experience a big increase in power on a naturally-aspirated diesel engine after installing an LPG fumigation system, then you should go back and check to see that your injection pump was adjusted to provide a nearly stoicheometric air-to-fuel ratio at maximum throttle without the LPG turned on. It's possible that the significant power boost you are seeing is due to the engine now being adequately fueled for the first time. The additional BTU content of the LPG is simply being substituted for the diesel fuel that you haven't been injecting all along.

     Turbocharged diesel engines are able to realize a significant increase in power by using LPG fumigation. While the usual suggested increase is considered to be approximately 20%, by careful management of the gas introduction, power gains of up to 40% are possible. My understanding is that it is a very fine line between lots of extra power and a dose of LPG that will render an engine scrap metal in a hurry, so consider carefully before you decide to "turn it up".
     Turbo engines are by design blessed with a lean air-to-fuel ratio, and can be fed concentrations of LPG up to about 6-8% of the intake air volume. TDI (Turbo Direct Injection) engines have shown dramatic power increases when properly fumigated with LPG, combined with an "Upsolute" chip, or computer engine management upgrade. (Of course, these modifications will void any manufacturers warranties...)

Types of systems:

     I am aware of two basic fumigation systems.

     The first, I call the "dump" system, which means that you pick a value of propane to feed to the engine, either by calculation, or by trial-and-error, and you simply "dump" it into the air intake. Little provision is possible for correcting gas flow depending on engine load, so the system is probably only optimized for one type of load demand. The advantage is that this type of system can be cobbled to together by backyard experimenters like myself at a low cost. The disadvantages are that you will probably need to error on the side of caution to make sure that you aren't overloading your engine with too much gas, and that the system doesn't compensate for variations in engine speed, load, etc.

     The second system is much more sophisticated, and uses a variety of sensors and controls to monitor engine performance and load, and adjust the gas flow to suit the need at the moment. Most commercially available systems will be of this type.
     In order to determine the load on the engine in a N/A system, a venturi must be placed in the air intake, as diesel engines have no natural intake manifold vacuum. A sample of the vacuum produced by the venturi is fed to a metering system, either electronic or mechanical, which adjusts the gas flow to suit the circumstances.
     Turbo engines have a great indicator of load built in. It's a fairly simple process to take a sample of the boost pressure developed by the turbocharger and use that to control the metering system. Most commercially made systems are designed for turbo engines, both for this reason, and because of the greater power gain that the turbo realizes from fumigation. Since boost is such a reliable indicator of engine load, higher values of fumigation can be realized, with tighter control over the results.

Reply #18April 30, 2007, 09:50:17 pm

subsonic

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Propane and Nitrous
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2007, 09:50:17 pm »
Could this be used to help with the dreaded hard cold starts that the franken engines are encountering?  Kind of like an advanced cold start lever?
Does anyone know if 635Racer's new manifold has a provision for anything like this?
2009 Jetta TDI Loyal edition, 6-spd. 16V 2.0CR


1985 VW Golf 5-spd, 4-door, 1.6NA  Bought from orig. owner in Savannah with 42,000 miles.
"Making the jump NA to TD" slow but sure.

1980 VW Rabbit LS 5-spd, 4-door 1.6NA almost 450,000miles  RIP

Reply #19May 01, 2007, 11:39:23 am

malone

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Propane and Nitrous
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2007, 11:39:23 am »
Quote
Could this be used to help with the dreaded hard cold starts that the franken engines are encountering?  Kind of like an advanced cold start lever?
Does anyone know if 635Racer's new manifold has a provision for anything like this?


Interesting idea about using a constant spray of propane to help with cold starts, but I don't think the franken engines have serious cold start problems. Chris' franken engine couldn't start well because he had a bent valve. My franken engine couldn't start well because I had a modified 1.9TD head deck (PP's stage 4), which lowered compression further, and a 3-hole headgasket that was too thick.

After fitting a headgasket with the correct thickness but still with lowered compression, my franken motor fired up instantly (only ~1 crank, at most 2 occasionally) in 0 degree C temperature. There was quite a bit of white smoke during the first 30 secs of driving after cold starting but the cold smoke level went down after 10,000km of break-in.

A healthy 1.9TD head on a healthy 1.6TD block without lowering compression further (via bent valve(s), an aggressive camshaft, thick headgasket, modified head deck) should be fine for daily driving from 0km. I have not tried it though. I may have missed it but I haven't seen anyone complain about cold starts with this basic franken setup.

While a ported 1.9TD head already gives improvements over a 1.6 head, I still would go for a modified deck for better airflow and drive it on the street. :D
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Reply #20May 01, 2007, 12:29:38 pm

malone

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Propane and Nitrous
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2007, 12:29:38 pm »
It'd be fantastic if cold-start propane will make 17:1, 18:1, or lower compression TDs streetable. The quicker ignition of propane could reduce smoke and increase engine smoothness during cold start.. I have not heard of propane used in low RPM and low load applications though. Does anyone have theories or more importantly practical experience?

Coleman Propane mini-BBQ tanks can be obtained easily and affordably at a handful of local stores (e.g. Superstore, Walmart) if a large propane tank is not desired, or if an e-z back-up is needed.

The following is my suggestion on how the "cold start" propane (if feasible) system should be wired up (fully automated, no switches):

1. Propane is injected while key is in "start" position, i.e. while the engine is cranking, not flooding the cylinders before the engine is cranking.

2. A coolant temperature switch will continue propane spray as long as the coolant is still cold, e.g below 70C or user preference. Key must stay in "on" position for propane to continue spraying. Propane will continue spraying only while the accelerator is not pressed, which implies engine idle (use the factory electric "off" switch on the fuel injection pump to trigger spray - or make a simple custom switch).

If the coolant temp is high enough, the propane kick-start (#1 above) can also stay disabled. It's up to the user.

3. Turning the key to "off" will turn off propane automatically.

Gotta be careful not to load the cylinders with excess propane while the engine's not running. If you mess up your clutch engagement and stall the engine, spray can continue while the key's still in "on" position. To prevent this, tap into the RPM sensor from the alternator. If the RPM signal is weak (e.g. below 800 RPM), then it will automatically disable propane.

The RPM switch is easy and can be put together for under $100. Buy the Dakota Digital RPM signal converter (~$60), a generic shift light. Autometer has a shift light with user-set shift points.. pick a 800 RPM shift point. Modify the shift light so instead of turning off the light below 800 RPM, it cuts off the propane system. Very basic wiring.

If desired, a separate RPM shift light can be added for the key "start" position, to disable propane below 50 RPM or whatever the cranking speed is.

4. There can be separate propane injection solenoids for #1 (start) and #2 (idle) above. I.e. use more propane flow for #1 start (while you are holding key to "start"), which will kick up RPM, and use controlled propane flow for #2 idle (while key is in "on" position) to hold idle at 1,200 RPM or whatever works best for your motor.

5. A master switch can be installed if propane needs to be permanently disabled.
http://www.tunezilla.com
93 Eurovan AHU TDI
96 Golf 1.9L ASV TDI - I bought it back!
97 Golf Variant Syncro 1.9L 1Z TDI - sold and missed
11 Golf 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Stage 4
14 Golf Wagon 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Sold
17 BMW 328d wagon - Sold
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Reply #21May 01, 2007, 01:11:50 pm

stewardc

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Propane and Nitrous
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2007, 01:11:50 pm »
It's my understanding that the percentage of propane to diesel fuel is critical (more is not better, but worse) as it is an "enhancement" only. The propane valve is a throttling valve and regulates based on diesel throttle position. I don't see it as being a starting aid, but a full-throttle power/emissions booster.

Reply #22May 01, 2007, 01:21:10 pm

malone

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Propane and Nitrous
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2007, 01:21:10 pm »
Quote from: "stewardc"
It's my understanding that the percentage of propane to diesel fuel is critical (more is not better, but worse) as it is an "enhancement" only. The propane valve is a throttling valve and regulates based on diesel throttle position. I don't see it as being a starting aid, but a full-throttle power/emissions booster.


So you don't think propane will work as a starting aid? Anyone else share the same thoughts? Some people have used more volatile liquids like acetone etc. to help improve starting - although stupid as it might be. Is there any liquid/gas other than propane that can be used to boost starting safely?

When my engine compression was really low, I had to crank ~10 times and then the engine stumbles to life when the cylinders are finally warmed from the slow cranking. It'd be nice if propane (or another gas/liquid) can help kick up the cranking speed / RPM, so we can tolerate lower compression for reliable high performance on street (we all know what happens to headgaskets with high compression...).

A fixed propane valve for brief starting could be used, no need for a throttling valve (my post wasn't discussing propane for power enhancement).
http://www.tunezilla.com
93 Eurovan AHU TDI
96 Golf 1.9L ASV TDI - I bought it back!
97 Golf Variant Syncro 1.9L 1Z TDI - sold and missed
11 Golf 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Stage 4
14 Golf Wagon 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Sold
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Reply #23May 01, 2007, 05:23:14 pm

MaxHedrm

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Propane and Nitrous
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2007, 05:23:14 pm »
Just a guess, but since Propane has a higher ignition temp, the diesel would have to ignite to get the propane to ignite. So how would this help a cold start?  :?:

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Reply #24May 01, 2007, 05:35:20 pm

malone

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« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2007, 05:35:20 pm »
Quote from: "MaxHedrm"
Just a guess, but since Propane has a higher ignition temp, the diesel would have to ignite to get the propane to ignite. So how would this help a cold start?  :?:


You're right, I re-read the propane facts and propane needs 100+ deg higher temp than regular diesel for ignition. Oh well, making 18:1 TD street-startable & practical is still wishful thinking :(  :)
http://www.tunezilla.com
93 Eurovan AHU TDI
96 Golf 1.9L ASV TDI - I bought it back!
97 Golf Variant Syncro 1.9L 1Z TDI - sold and missed
11 Golf 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Stage 4
14 Golf Wagon 2.0L CJAA TDI DSG - Sold
17 BMW 328d wagon - Sold
09 BMW 335d 3.0L

Reply #25May 01, 2007, 05:36:42 pm

stewardc

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Propane and Nitrous
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2007, 05:36:42 pm »
Quote from: MaxHedrm
Just a guess, but since Propane has a higher ignition temp, the diesel would have to ignite to get the propane to ignite. So how would this help a cold start?  :?:


This is correct. No starting help here.

Reply #26May 01, 2007, 06:34:12 pm

subsonic

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« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2007, 06:34:12 pm »
Well as a actual starting aid, I guess you may be right.
 After the first revolution of the engine, after it has actually started and is running, albeit like *** because either its  cold as hell outside, or because you have a bad ass low compression motor, it is still making fire, right?  I was thinking that if its burning diesel, than the burn would still light off the propane.  
So my question is still kind of out there, but perhaps modified.
Could propane help in the cold or with a low CR motor once you get that motor to at least fire, and run even a little?  When I lit the BBQ tonight, the propane fired off an almost dead match that I thought was out.
Would this smooth out the inital idle enough to make a difference?
2009 Jetta TDI Loyal edition, 6-spd. 16V 2.0CR


1985 VW Golf 5-spd, 4-door, 1.6NA  Bought from orig. owner in Savannah with 42,000 miles.
"Making the jump NA to TD" slow but sure.

1980 VW Rabbit LS 5-spd, 4-door 1.6NA almost 450,000miles  RIP

Reply #27May 03, 2007, 07:46:29 pm

jtanguay

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Propane and Nitrous
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2007, 07:46:29 pm »
think of it this way... the propane assists the diesel in burning more efficiently right?  if you left the GP's on, they *should* be hot enough to help ignite the propane...

unless someone has tried it or has experience with it, i wouldn't start saying that it is a wasted effort...

cheap and simple way of testing it out would be to have a little coleman propane tank at the intake.. would take 2 people to test it out.  open the tank a little as the engine cranks... of course malone or someone with low cr and bad cold starting issues should try this to see if it makes a difference.


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Reply #28May 03, 2007, 09:46:15 pm

subsonic

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« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2007, 09:46:15 pm »
How hot do the glow plugs get when they cycle?  They look pretty freaking hot when you put the juice to them if you have one out to test it.

I get the difference in temp caused by compression.  The compression temp alone ( 400?C ) will not be enough to ignite the propane/o2 mix wich has a ignition temp of 500?C.   Diesel has a lower ignition temp, 385?C.

If diesel ignites at 385, and the propane is already at 400 from compression alone, and the propane mix raises the percentage of combustion efficiancy 15% ( 75% to 90%) than why would it not ignite when the diesel fires at 385?
Granted, a low CR motor will probably give you different compression temps. I dont know how to figure those out.
Still with a 15% increase in combustion efficiancy and a  white hot glow plug, I don't see how it wouldnt combust.

(By the way, speaking of flames and ignition temps :twisted:  :twisted:  Has anyone ever seen the old time hotrods that had a sparkplug threaded into their exhaust near the tail pipe??  You dont want to tailgate one of those cars :!:  :shock:
Sooo, if you had a small tank in your trunk, perhaps.......)

Here is the part of stewardc's post I am refering too:

 
Quote
Introducing LPG gas into the combustion air intake of a diesel engine acts as an accelerant, promoting the even burning of the diesel fuel, and more complete combustion, resulting in more power being produced. Many web pages and forum posts will call LPG a "catalyst" but this is not correct, as LPG creates no change in the molecular makeup of either the air or the diesel fuel.
Propane by itself will not self-ignite inside a diesel-fuel compression-ignition engine. During the compression stroke, the air/LPG mixture is compressed and the temperature is raised to about 400?C, not enough to ignite the LPG, which has an ignition temperature of about 500?C. When the diesel fuel is atomized into the cylinder under high pressure, it immediately self-ignites (diesel ignites at about 385?C.), and causes the LPG to burn as well. Since the LPG is in mixture with the air, the flame front from the diesel spreads more quickly, and more completely, including igniting the air/fuel mixture which is in contact with the cylinder walls, which are cool in comparison to the super-heated air inside the combustion chamber. Much of the cleaner burning of the fuel is attributed to this ignition against the "cooler" components of the engine, and accounts for raising the percentage of combustion from a typical 75% for a well-tuned diesel engine running on pure diesel fuel alone, to 85-90% with the addition of LPG.
2009 Jetta TDI Loyal edition, 6-spd. 16V 2.0CR


1985 VW Golf 5-spd, 4-door, 1.6NA  Bought from orig. owner in Savannah with 42,000 miles.
"Making the jump NA to TD" slow but sure.

1980 VW Rabbit LS 5-spd, 4-door 1.6NA almost 450,000miles  RIP

Reply #29May 04, 2007, 05:53:08 pm

MaxHedrm

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« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2007, 05:53:08 pm »
Quote from: "subsonic"

I get the difference in temp caused by compression.  The compression temp alone ( 400?C ) will not be enough to ignite the propane/o2 mix wich has a ignition temp of 500?C.   Diesel has a lower ignition temp, 385?C.

If diesel ignites at 385, and the propane is already at 400 from compression alone, and the propane mix raises the percentage of combustion efficiancy 15% ( 75% to 90%) than why would it not ignite when the diesel fires at 385?


If There are problems igniting the diesel reliably on a cold start, then you aren't even reaching 385 consistently, or it would be igniting. So occasionally the Propane will ignite, but only after the diesel does. Which doesn't help so much. Except maybe to raise engine temp a little faster.

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