Very rough running

[RunninWild]

Figured I'd make a new thread as I've got the engine running now but trying to work out the bugs as it's running pretty bad.

Back story brand new aaz head on 1.6td block.
Used aaz pump supposedly fresh from a Giles tune.
Timing at 1.0mm
1.6td injectors they ran fine before I pulled the head but my socket couldn't quite grab the threads strong enough to get one of them out of the old head. I ended up using vice grips on the body of the injector and the 2 halves came apart. I simply screwed it back together without cleaning or anything so it's possible 1 injector isn't working properly. I did try some old untested aaz injectors and they ran even worse.

The problems:
Very poor throttle response literally no change in rpm below 1/2 throttle
Hard starting when cold with lots of white/grey smoke (probably due to lowered compression)
Coolant turned black on first startup. It was purple originally so could just be crud from cleaning the deck as it doesn't look like it's getting very oily and my oil isnt foamy.

Here's a video of it after a cold start

If any of you diesel pro's can think of something I've missed I'd love to hear from you. Right now I'm thinking I bent a valve When trying to time it properly or the Giles pump is doa.

[ORCoaster]

I ended up using vice grips on the body of the injector and the 2 halves came apart. I simply screwed it back together without cleaning or anything so it's possible 1 injector isn't working properly.


Houston I think we might have a problem.....

I didn't get this description in the other thread and assumed you pulled all the injectors out and replaced them with a different set.  This method of disassembling  an injector may very well have dropped something into the needle valve area or, OR, you don't have it as tight as it needs to be and it isn't developing the needed pop to spray the fuel into the head. 

You are really going to need to get that injector out and clean it out properly or just swap another in there and see what it does. 

I have not experienced an IP producing proper pressure on three of four lines.  Maybe if a check valve was bad perhaps that might reduce the line pressure.  Usually it is the same process to produce the pressure on each line just at different times and only once it is out the back of the IP head is there a difference in lines or injectors. 

[RunninWild]

After swapping back in the 1.6td injectors it seems to be idling smoother. I think it is running on all cylinders now. Maybe one of my fuel lines was a bit loose before as it barely wanted to idle without the cold start pulled. I'm definitely going to try and track down a new set of aaz injectors, or have mine rebuilt.

Any suggestions on the lack of response from the pump? The previous owner thinks it might be something to do with the throttle setup on the pump being off slightly. It does rev fine once it's past the 1/2 way point so that could make sense.

[RunninWild]

Do you have a way to test the compression?  With the prior mention of tapping the valve with the piston I wonder if there is a problem with that cylinder properly building pressure.  Since you swapped injectors that to me eliminates the possibility of injector trouble. 

What kind of smoke are you dumping now? 

I wouldn't think IP problem here.  I think the lack of revs is connected to the fact that you are running on three cylinders not four and some thing is holding it back.   

I dont know if I tapped a valve or not. I did play with the timing a lot though and anything is possible. It was running really bad with the aaz injectors. With them I had to have the throttle to the floor for it to idle, then I had to crank the fuel screw way in for it to idle normally and be able to rev. It was definitely only on 3 cylinders with the aaz injectors and it still only reved past 1/2 throttle as well.

 Its idling much better since swapping back in the 1.6td injectors I'm thinking I may have originally had a leaking injector line or something. Does my video look like it's only on 3 cylinders to you? Smoke is white/grey but I havnt warmed it up fully to see if it goes away. It did on my original test drive when it was missing on the one cylinder so I'm thinking it will.

I really don't think the 1/2 throttle until it revs is an injector issue. Watch my video there is litterally no change under 1/2 throttle even if it's held. Its not like it's lagging it's just doing nothing. Pump adjustment seems likely to me but I really don't know anything about injection pumps.

I'm thinking if I can't get the throttle issue resolved I'll bring it to a shop next weekend and see if they can do a compression test/leakdown and if they have any suggestions on what I should try.

[air-cooled or diesel]

check for air in inlet line, stumbling like that may be also air in pump/lines. that much throttle opening till you get response may be air, check 1st, or a problem with how the ip is set up.

[RunninWild]

I don't think it's air. I only have a 1" section of clear hose but I don't notice any bubbles running threw it. I'm going to start driving it to work tomorrow (only 5 min away) so after I get some more miles on it I'll know for sure.

[ORCoaster]

Is the tiny section of clear line on the inlet of the pump or the outlet or between the injectors?  Most of us use a clear section from filter to IP and I have clear lines on all the nipples of the injectors.  Only place I don't have clear in on the outbolt and I wish I did.  Then I would have complete knowledge of where the air comes in, routes around, and then out.

Given your situation I would try bumping the pump to the advanced direction, towards the engine to see what you get in the way of response.  Timing is not always everything.  Setup matters.  I have started at spec from the decal on the fender and gone various ways and amounts until I found the best spot for me.  I have gone the route of the photocell sensing the flash in the cylinder and watching the flywheel with a timing light.  Then I measured the IP and it was much different than I would have expected but that is where it "RUNS" the best.  Best Mileage, best performance and best for smooth at idle. 

That is a give and take number by the way.  I wouldn't recommend it for many others unless they were in a small city, with plenty of lights and you spent most of you commute in third. 

Loosen those bolts and give it some twists when running and see if you don't pick up some idle and easier starting.  IF it starts better with the Cold Start pulled you are advancing the pump.

[RunninWild]

Any idea on how much the cold start advances the timing? I'll put some miles on it tomorrow and get a better feel for how it's running.

On my first test drive it was revving and pulling decently it just had a rough idle which seems to be better since I took the injectors in and out.

Is there a way to adjust the throttle mechanism? I understand timing is subjective and there's no one proper spot but I'm really thinking the internal throttle on the pump is out of adjustment. If it was just due to bad timing I'd expect stumbling or a lagging throttle or some kind of effect on how the engine runs. The fact that half of the throttle does nothing seems like it's not adding any fuel. I'd expect it to at least have some effect on the engine.

[ORCoaster]

I think the cold start only advances it a few degrees, 5-7 maybe.  I would have to look it up but it isn't much.

For that throttle fix.  When you look down from the top of the shaft that holds all the springs and clips and such on there are marks across that throttle shaft and on the lever.  Draw a line across the shaft and the levers with a sharpie or something like that.  After wiping if clean of course.  Then disassemble the works.  I use a smaller nosed pair of vice grip pliers to remove the springs.  You just have to slip them off the tabs and then walk them back a bit to get them off. 

Knowing that all is aligned as per the mark you want to pull the lever off without moving the shaft.  Then turn the shaft Counter Clockwise a very little bit and place the lever back on the shaft.  You should now see a difference on the line you drew previously.  You only want to take the spline shaft one notch back at a time.  Reassemble the springs and clips and stuff and see if that helps at all.  That is the normal realignment process we tweak with when we forget to mark and reassemble that part in the first place. 

Something to think about.  And try.

You might search on user Libbydiesel for shaft alignment on this forum as I think he has a better write up some place.

[RunninWild]

I think I get what your saying. Just to clarify the throttle plate that the cable attaches to is notched and the shaft is splined. I basically want to rotate the shaft ccw relative to the position of the plate. This in a way preloads the throttle, or in my case realigns it to it's original position. Instead of going 1 spline at a time then testing could I mark the position when the throttle starts to kick in and go with the corresponding spline. Or is it safer to just go 1 at a time?

[burn_your_money]

If the pump still has the yellow paint marks from Giles I wouldn't mess with it yet.

Make sure your injectors are 100% first, then play with timing. You might need a lot of advance. The cold start only effects timing at idle and slightly above so don't assume rotating the pump and using the cold start are the same thing.

[burn_your_money]

Ok so after getting somewhere with decent internet and watching your video I can tell you for sure that Giles goes not paint his pumps black like that. If you can convince Giles to paint your pump he paints it as 1 piece. Your throttle levers were obviously removed and then painted. It's very possible that the throttle shaft is off by a spline or 2.

The top spring comes off separate from the bottom 2 so go ahead and take that one off. There is nothing to mark, you just need to remember the order everything goes on and off in. Once you have the top spring off, you'll have to look inside a long 10mm nut, about 3/4" long. Inside of it is the throttle shaft and there is a line cut in the top of it. Put a dot or a line on the piece below the nut. You can't mark right beside the nut because that is a washer and is not indexed to the shaft. You need to put the mark outside of that washer. Loosen off the springs, loosen or remove the long nut, move the shaft over 1 spline, tighten the nut and then fire it up and see if it's better. Don't hook the springs up until you have it right.

[Tylenol]

I'm with burn your money on the shaft being out. Have you done anything to the pump to get it to run or it's just like the previous owner clamed straight from performance diesel? Because I belive (correct me if I'm wrong) if the shaft is off a spline or two (depending on which way it rotated) you won't get your idle and hard starting if it would start at all actually?!

[libbydiesel]

You're definitely off with the accelerator lever to accelerator shaft alignment (there is no throttle plate).  Your tracking is also way off.  You will eventually chew up the belt running it that way.  Any time you have had the bracket off the engine, you should always adjust the belt tracking before hooking everything else up (e.g. metal lines, accel cable, cold start, etc...).

[RunninWild]

I painted the pump but I didn't take anything apart when I did. I knew the tracking wasn't perfect. I'll fix it when I get some time. I just want to try and get the thing running half decent first. Getting the throttle fixed would give me more motivation to dig deeper into the thing again. Honestly I'm getting tired of working on the thing in the poor weather and giving the neighbourhood a smoke show every time I introduce air into the fuel system.

The only thing I did to the pump was swap on the cold start mehanism from a 1.6td pump and play with the fuel screw. The one it came with was different and wasn't cable actuated

Is it possible Giles put it together out of alignment? I know he knows what he's doing but everyone makes mistakes... The throttle being off would make a bit more sense about the lack of top end power as well. Its not quite as quick as it was with the original pump and head.

But thanks for the help guys I really appreciate your taking the time to look at what's going on.