Water Injection and Piston noise question

[hillfolk'r]

yea i think you are right jake,,more cyl pressure w/water,  more power,not sicklike a 100 shot nos,but its power,i could get crazy quoting stuff from one of the turbo books i got,,i do remember something regarding testing on a gas engine,,they were getting knock at lets say to make it easy,175 psi cyl pressure,,,resistance to knock increased with water injection,and pressure rose to 250 approx,,,,,numbers arent "real",and im just going off the top of my head,, i do remember something about BMEP in there,,,im tired i need napee :x ,,,,,,,as far as water injection,,ever seen a steam engine mega torque,,,,it makes a semi-steam engine ,water injection does,,,,,,,ill try to unpack that book sometime this week regarding this subject,,,,,,,,,

[Solar_Subaru]

From what have come to understand about injecting before the turbo, it reduces the necessity of an intercooler. with just water, the use of an intercooler is said to actually heat the air charge! Not using an intercooler, I would imagine there is a higher possibility of larger droplets entering the combustion chamber, but I would think the turbo would atomize them very well. Using methanol as well as water actually helps to absorb additional heat in the compressor. On the water injection forum, it is said that amost no water leaves the compressor in droplet form, because so much heat is absorbed :?: check this out:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=7747#7747
this deals with precompressor injection: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=267&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

If you really want to get out of control, there are some who think that the act of compressing the water/steam may actually raise the energy state of the H2 and the O, giving the gases some btu value!  There are some real crazies that are messing around with "watergas engines" basically running a plating-style setup to reduce water into it's components with the alternator, the funneling the gas into the manifold, supposedly, it injests just water.  :lol: I bet running your car on just water would be almost as good as running it on WVO the first time.  I laughed my butt off the first time!- Free Fuel is ok by me!

 Anyhow, to get back to the original topic, please everyone give me their vote for what they think my noise is.  I think my pump/valve timing is off. it would coincide with my bad fuel economy (35mpg or so)

Hillfolk'r didn't say anything about his setup making noise, and it seems like our two are very similar. But one person on another forum as well thought my detonation noise could be the large water droplets hitting the compressor wheel.-I don't really think this is it.
-Tony

[fspGTD]

I have experienced detonation in a 1.6lIDI Diesel when fumigating the intake air with LPG (propane.)  The sound is not very unlike our familiar "diesel rattle" that we usually hear right after a cold start.  If you think this is what may be happening with you, I would recommend proceeding very carefull!  It didn't take very much of that noise before the detonation blew out a headgasket.

It is possible that the timing needs to be retarded from the factory setting to eliminate this noise (assuming it is detonation) when fumigating with alcohol.  I'd invest in a timing gauge and go at it testing a few various settings.  It's not that hard to adjust if you have the dial indicator and adapter.  You could start by making sure the timing is set to where you expect it is.

Thanks for the info on water injection by the way.

[Solar_Subaru]

Any info as to where I can get the adapter?
What you are saying makes a lot of sense, and that rattle is almost exactly what I'm hearing.

Thanks
-Tony

[fspGTD]

My recommendaiton is to go with a gauge that reads in hundredths of a mm rather than thousandths of an inch, so you won't loose accuracy in the conversion.

The threads below give some suggestions:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1169
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3561

I'm pretty sure I've got the Zelenda adapter.  My timing dial indicator is this really cool gauge and matching green plastic hardcase that has Russian writing on it and is USSR surplus!

Only other suggestion, given that it sounds like it is a detonation sound, is that I'd cut out the water/alcohol injection for now until you can check your timing, or maybe mix in more water to the solution so there is less fuel for the detonation, just avoid that detonation, and your headgasket will thank you very much for it.

[jtanguay]

If you really want to get out of control, there are some who think that the act of compressing the water/steam may actually raise the energy state of the H2 and the O, giving the gases some btu value!  There are some real crazies that are messing around with "watergas engines" basically running a plating-style setup to reduce water into it's components with the alternator, the funneling the gas into the manifold, supposedly, it injests just water.  :lol: I bet running your car on just water would be almost as good as running it on WVO the first time.  I laughed my butt off the first time!- Free Fuel is ok by me!

Hmmmm electrolysis would require large amounts of energy to split the molecules.  The size of alternator required would be far bigger than the engine could handle If running solely on that.  I did find some guy online who was using a catalytic converter to actually split fuel into simpler molecules and give better mileage though, he got around 80 mpg out of his 8 cyl van.   The gas was basically transformed into a gaseous state and yielded far better mileage than any diesel or hybrid on the market today!  Interesting stuff!

I lost the website though, and it took me FOREVER to find it!  I do know it was a gmc astro van

I found a site with the same info about the cracking using catalytic converter, but its not the same one as mentioned before.

http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Carburetors/McBurney/press_release031117.htm

[hillfolk'r]

well,,you can use a washer pump,to inject,post turbo,if you  run a "boost reference line" to your washer bottle, you basically have lets say 20psion each side of pump(incontainer,and intake),,and lets say the washer pump can give 1 psi,,,,welladd that 1 psi to the  water outlet,,it injects,,,,doesnt matter if theres 3000 psi  on each side for arguments sake, ,gotta equal the pressure in the intake you are making,,,then a washer pump can inject water,,you arent"fighting" boost pressure with a washer pump post turbo,,,,which would never work,,,,,,ill have to look at that setup in the book again,and you need a container that can handle the boost pressure too,,,,that would suck exploding a a2 washer bottle,filled with washer fluid,and mines mounted on the pass side floorboard,,id get a bath:),,,i think there may have been a check valve or a vent or somethin,,,,,,,i remember seeing another setup topressurize the bottlle,,but have the water injected pre turbo,,,sorta self sufficient without a pump at all, use boost psi to inject,,,,,theres alot of ways to do it,,correctly,and cheap,,and ido honestly thinkwe are ok,, injecting preturbo,,,,,,,oh, this does matter,,,keep the washer bottlle lower than  the injector/jet,,dont wanna hydrolock engine when its shut off,,,it will flow out,i tested this,, :idea:

[hillfolk'r]

I have experienced detonation in a 1.6lIDI Diesel when fumigating the intake air with LPG (propane.)  The sound is not very unlike our familiar "diesel rattle" that we usually hear right after a cold start.  If you think this is what may be happening with you, I would recommend proceeding very carefull!  It didn't take very much of that noise before the detonation blew out a headgasket.

It is possible that the timing needs to be retarded from the factory setting to eliminate this noise (assuming it is detonation) when fumigating with alcohol.  I'd invest in a timing gauge and go at it testing a few various settings.  It's not that hard to adjust if you have the dial indicator and adapter.  You could start by making sure the timing is set to where you expect it is.

Thanks for the info on water injection by the way.

,,,,,i always wondered if i jammed a hose on a propane torch,shoved it in the intake,and opened it up under load ,,if it would be noticable on power???

[hillfolk'r]

solar subaru,,,if it doesnt knock/ping without water under load,,,,,i still think you are injecting too much water,,or too early,,im leaning towards too much water,,,,dude up above said activate it at around 7-8psi or so,,,try choking off a little more water,,,,,,,,i dont think noise is water hitting turbo etc like you may have been told,,,,,,one time  i hit it goin thru town,cruisin like 35 in 4th,,stayed steady on gas, no boost,after 3 seconds it started misfiring,,,,,,,i let up of course,,,,mine was a little scary at first,,cause ihad it hooked up to battery,,could activate it keyoff,,,,,dont do as i do,,,,,irewired it later,,,, :oops: ,,,

[Solar_Subaru]

If I stay on the water on a flat cruise under 10 psi of boost, it will start to load up on me.
As far as the propane, yes, you will see a noticable difference, it is like nitrous on diesels, but be careful!
Thanks for the links for the tools and the cracking guys, being an Alternative fuels instructor, everything I can get on cracking, oir anything else is material I can use in class, just to tell my students what is out there.  Of course I come across a lot of stuff that is pure witchery!
Hillfolk'r, let me know if you are going to mess around with boost referencing the bottle, it would be interesting to see if a simple, reliable kit could be made with a washer bottle!
Or at least to prove that it is not reliable, or good to do at all!

Tony

[DVST8R]

...it is like nitrous on diesels...

Sorry to single you out, but this statement is really starting to bother me, not just from you, but in general of people who have a small understanding of diesels, yet for some reason like to promote this myth. Propane on a diesel works like adding more fuel, Nitrous on a diesel is like adding a bigger turbo. Neither is really comparable to adding nitrous in a gas motor.

Propane is not "nitrous for diesels" nitrous is nitrous for gas or diesel, despite its contiued promotion as the "nitrous for diesel" by the uniformed of the web. Normally I do not go on crusades, I'm just to lazy, but this is starting to bug me, not only because it is absolutly wrong, but also as it is a big saftey concern, propane in an IDI is a scary thing it doesn't take much to blow a motor.

So just to clarify again:

Propane = Bigger fuel pump, more fuel
Nitrous = Bigger turbo and intercooler, more air

Yes they can be used together and work well, but I would recomend going down all other roads b4 propane, as it is one of the smallest gains for the $$$, or if used wrong one of the biggest BANGS for the buck... :roll:

[Solar_Subaru]

No problem, I understand., really! If anyone deserves to be singled out on this, it would be me!
sometimes, because we are in a hurry, we take shortcuts in speech.
What I should have said, was that it has a similar affect on power output, or something like that.
 Who cares about head gaskets anyhow?
Build it to blow it!!!!
That's kind of my thing anyhow.  Nitrous Oxide blows head gaskets as well after all.
Although not everybody is a mechanic.  I forget that when I am on some of these forums.  I am used to changing gaskets on some of my cars regularly!

Tony

[wyldman]

It's not the nitrous that blows head gaskets.it's the increased cylinder pressures.

[DVST8R]

I really must have had the luckiest vw diesels ever, as I have never blown a HG in a VW TDnot with 35psi, not with Nitrous, not with shear abuse, even overheating which tends to be the real cause of most hg faliures. I blew a HG and part of a valve in an NA with lots of miles and some GTD injectors, but that was a whole differnt realm :lol: . With a proper FLAT head and deck with studs and a 1.9hg with some edlebrock gaskeget goo. I have yet to see a HG blow, and I have seen some adventuress tries.  :wink:

[DVST8R]

Oh, one more thing I finally got off my lazy butt and did somthing about it... See new post in FAQ.