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Injector Pump (IP) Timing
by
mtnsammy
on 04 Apr, 2006 01:45
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I have beat this to pieces on other forums.
I have a 1.6TD from a Jetta in my suzuki. I have completly rebuilt the motor. The compression is 575 psi all the way across. When I set the timing on the IP I can only get .85" on the dial. The motor is sluggish and does not put out as much power as it did before I blew the head gasket the first time.
My IP is pushed all the way against the motor causing me to bend the fuel pipes tight. If I move the belt over one notch either way the motor does not run.
All I want is the awesome power I had with a blown gasket.
I would say maybe the injectors are bad, but at $40 buck a piece for cheep ones I don't want to waste money. I still say the IP has something wrong.
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#1
by
Justin
on 04 Apr, 2006 05:09
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try moving the belt one tooth over each way and then re-timing in instead of just moving it and seeing if it will run. I often while retiming get the pump a tooth of and then i cannot get the correct timing as well so i look at it and see that if i move it one tooth then i have more adjustment to play with and it all works out
later
Justin
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#2
by
mtnsammy
on 04 Apr, 2006 10:26
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I tried the moving a tooth over and retiming. I still can only get .85 on the dial. Just incase I ordered another setup to check my timing. The first clamped on the throttle bracket but seemed to be very tight. I could bump and nudge the support and not change the reading.
I ordered the kit from El Paso Tools in Florida with the extension tube.
maybe this will read different???
One mechanic told me it sounded like an injector. I tried loosening the fittings to find a drop but it all checked good. Is there any good or great hi performance or High Flow injectors out there I might use??
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#3
by
Justin
on 04 Apr, 2006 10:52
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its probably not your injectors, if you are only getting .85 for timing thats the problem, high flow injectors will not fix that problem, try not clamping your fixture and see if you can push it in further, i suspect that the rod extention is to short and is not contacting the plunger all the time. if the rod was long enough then you should get an accurate reading, you are able to zero the guage correctly?
when you zero the guage does it stay at zero for a significant amount of time?
Later
Justin
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#4
by
wyldman
on 04 Apr, 2006 12:43
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As long as you can sink the gauge at least 2.0 mm into the pump at TDC,then it's long enough.
Are you sure your getting full travel of the pump ? A lot of time they get sticky and will be hard to rotate.
Loosen the injector lines to make it easier.
Are you sure the timing belt is good ? If it's stretched,the pump timing will be retarded,and you will have to rotote the pump a fair ways to get it set right.
Start over and retime the belt first.Make sure you rotate the pump back (towards the front) so you will have some adjustment room afterwards.
When you install the belt,line crank up at TDC.Rotate IP pulley clockwise so it goes slightly past the hold for the pin to engage,and old it by hand.Hook the belt over it so teeth engage on belt,then release the IP pulley and rotate counterclockwise to remove slack.IP lock pin should now be lined up (or use a socket instead).If the locking pin or socket slides in,and is level,or pointed slightly down,you good to go.If it's pointing slightly up,then your belt is stretched,or the IP bracket is crooked.
Once you get it lined up,then slide the cam pulley under the top of the belt (with cam lined up),and tighten the bolt.Tension the belt,and then rotate the engine a few turns by hand,and then recheck to make sure.
Once you get the belt right,you should be easily able to get more than .085 mm at the pump.
Line up motor at TDC.Install dial indicator and tool and sink it to about 3.00 mm or .150".Rotate engine back until dial indicator stops moving,and zero it.Rotate slowly back to TDC and read.Now you can rotate the pump to make you adjustment.Don't forget,when setting timing,to take belt slack into consideration.I always push down on the belt between the IP pulley and the cam pulley to remove slack.This will give you a more accurate reading,and you will see the timing actually retard some when you do so.Set it so you get the timing you want when the belt is pulled tight.I usually set it .005" advanced,so you'll be right on when the blet is tight.
EDIT - Forot to add,you can push the dial indictaor arm in with your finger (where it comes out the top of the dial) as you rotate the motor back from top dead center to make sure it goes all the way in.Sometimes it will stick,throwing off your "zero" reading.
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#5
by
fspGTD
on 04 Apr, 2006 17:36
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Also, don't forget to loosen all four of the mounting nuts/bolts. (In addition to the 3 at the pump input driveshaft end, there is one on the other end you'll also want to loosen.)
.85" timing advance isn't possible. You must be thinking of .085" (which would make 2.159mm... more than twice the advance you should be setting!) or else .85mm, which is in the right ballpark (perhaps a touch retarded, depending on what specs are recommended for your particular engine/injection pump.)
Edit: moved to troubleshooting section
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#6
by
dennis m king
on 04 Apr, 2006 18:50
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yesterday i retarded my pump looking for my as un touched milage from a couple of years ago. (about 43ish on a 86 jetta with a 83 td 1.6 in) i put the timing mark on the pump and the pump bracket about in line. it was .50mm stroke at tdc mark on flywheel. the bummer was setting it about 1/8 inch twards the head from the mark on the pump bracket was 1.0mm in spec. so i had it without a dial indicator.
it is easy to asume everything is corect. for 3 years i was running with the cam and pump correct but the crank was one tooth off. ran ok. i run a blend of veg oil and gas and for every ones info on old pumps it will take out the head O ring down the road. so i got to putting on the good pump and i did not asume the crank was not moving and looked. bam it was way off. so now with a 11mm 1/4 drive craftsman socket in the pump pulley the 3/16 plate in the cam notch the crank is dead nuts on tdc.i picked up 3 mpg. if you have this all correct (all three) than your pump is wearing out and needing too mutch stroke to get to injector opening pressure. i think it is cut and dry on this.
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#7
by
mtnsammy
on 04 Apr, 2006 21:05
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dennisking Right on I think the pump is done. I will know for sure after the bench test.
Justin and wyldman did and done on the procedure. I have tried to get the dial to show excess play but it was right on. I did order another setup to be sure and make it easier to set timing. I do believe it is just dumb luck on the IP going bad. A bench test will show for sure.
fspgtd Yes I typed it wrong as .85 instead of .085.
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#8
by
fspGTD
on 04 Apr, 2006 21:36
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The 1.6 diesel's camplate is expected to run out of lift at 2.2mm (0.0866".) So it is no wonder then that you are having trouble advancing it beyond about .085". Further advance beyond that point would make the camplate ride down and the gauge would start decreasing.
At .085", (or anything near it), you are at waaaay to much advance, in fact that's pretty amazing/interesting to me that you found the motor even started and ran near this setting!
FYI - I found that backfiring would occur during starting when my 1.6lTD was set with 1.17mm lift on my 1.6lTD. That's only .046"!
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#9
by
mtnsammy
on 05 Apr, 2006 01:42
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#10
by
mtnsammy
on 05 Apr, 2006 01:52
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OK now I feel retarded. My emails are all messed up as to the proper numbers and whether they are standard or metric. I was trying to get it to .095 inches which is more than double what it was supposed to be. This weekend I will move it back to .0374 inches or .095 mm like the Bentley says to. Sometime even us men need to read directions more than once to get it thru our heads.....
I am such a retard and so is my truck now. Thanks for the help and I will repost the results on friday night if my honey do list will allow it.
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#11
by
LeeG
on 06 Apr, 2006 08:18
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wyldman: that is the best description of IP timing I have read here, it should go into the FAQ section!
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#12
by
mtnsammy
on 07 Apr, 2006 16:37
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WOW
What a difference. Now that I have the right numbers and the right format in inches the motor started quick and runs like a striped ape. The boost now kicks up to 15 if I push it an the pop off is hating it all. I posted pictures of the jimmy rigged setup I had to use since the VW tool was back ordered and would not get here till 4/11. If you go to zuwharrie.com and look under the diesel tech section of the forum I posted on page three of " Am I looking for too much power" Thanks for the help and I look forward to posting a new thread when I get the rest of my tools and gages to monitor the motor better. I am installing an aftercooler, oil cooler, and full instrumentation. No more blown motors in my future.[
