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#15
by
theman53
on 10 Jun, 2014 10:11
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#16
by
vanbcguy
on 10 Jun, 2014 10:12
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A 2-pronged approach might be to drop the pan and do the windage tray, plus add a mechanical oil pressure gauge running off the filter flange.
When troubleshooting it is good to keep the changes to a minimum or you'll never know what actually fixed the problem.
As far as oil weight is concerned I'd think you'd want the lightest weight oil that will stay together at the temps you are running. NASCAR for instance run 0W5 to minimize friction. It's not like this oil needs to live to 10,000 miles in stop and go driving, you can cook the hell out of it in a few runs and then dump and reload - you're getting it from a sponsor anyhow! Yes, a 15W50 will make more pressure, there's no denying that, but it's also going to be waaaay thicker meaning more drag on all your bearings and your oil pump.
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#17
by
CRSMP5
on 10 Jun, 2014 12:32
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So how many of YOU Have screwed with 85 golf 1.8 hydro engines??
Telling you... Its a oil thickness issue for oil temp....
They had issues of wrong oil pumps in pa for hydro golf engines.... Seen it... Blew hours trying to resolve it till oil ppump of wrong size installes in westmorland... How i learned differance in such things...
Mr jetmug left u pm with my #... Feel free to call, text...
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#18
by
Jetmugg
on 10 Jun, 2014 12:53
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I'll check the high-res version of the video and get back to you with the temp readings.
I only keeping my engine from kersploding.
Will send follow-up text.
Steve.
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#19
by
Jetmugg
on 10 Jun, 2014 20:59
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Good news, I drained the oil, and it was clean (no visible metal particles).
I removed the filter and cut it apart (no visible metal particles).
I pulled the oil pan off and visually inspected the bottom end. Everything looks as it should.
I'm going to order a pan gasket/windage tray combo, fill it with heavier oil, and see what that does for me.
Steve.
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#20
by
theman53
on 10 Jun, 2014 22:54
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Good deal.
Do you have another dyno planned to test or how are you going to do it?
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#21
by
Gizmoman
on 11 Jun, 2014 08:25
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I think the gauge wiring is suspect as theman mentioned. Possibly a flaky ground.
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#22
by
Jetmugg
on 11 Jun, 2014 09:42
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I will run a separate, dedicated ground wire from the body of the sending unit directly to a main ground terminal in the cabin of the truck.
I'm also going to add a big, bright warning light in the event of oil pressure drop.
Althought 123 mph isn't nearly as fast as most LSR vehicles, there still isn't a lot of time to be scanning the gauges.
Steve.
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#23
by
theman53
on 11 Jun, 2014 09:43
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I think the gauge wiring is suspect as theman mentioned. Possibly a flaky ground.
If it isn't I am hoping it is just the film strength of the oil not being enough like CRSMP5 was saying. That turbo being cooled by the oil and running sustained EGT of over 1,000f the oil hydrodynamic film should be about done especially with 5w-30. It was in the 80's this weekend and I am sure it will be hotter in the salt desert which wouldn't help matters. I wouldn't want to run a street car across the salt flats at 55mph and reasonable rpms with 5w-30...maybe a newer car that is designed for 5-20 or something. I am glad he is going to run something thicker
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#24
by
Jetmugg
on 11 Jun, 2014 09:49
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I'm back and forth mentally, but will probably step up to Mobil 1 15W-50, or a conventional 20W50.
Steve.
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#25
by
southernman
on 12 Jun, 2014 23:11
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Guys, I just posted the following in another thread.
Put a mechanical gauge on it, and check the oil pressure. If it's excessive it is sucking the pan dry. Also, windage does not come in to play at lower rpm's (typically under 6K rpm). A deep skirted block might nudge that down slightly, but our blocks are not deep skirted, nor are they capable of exceeding 6K rpms, so windage is not a factor. Nor would viscosity/oil effect oil pressure in the manner described in the OP. I offer the following and have disassembled the pumps to verify the source...
Guys, there seems to be a common thread when I start discussing oil leaks in these engines. I completely rebuilt my 82 1.6 about a year ago, and was not happy to see the recurring puddles under mine. However, the tendency for these engines to leak around the valve cover seals is routine - but it shouldn't be considered "normal". Here's why:
I build mostly hotrod and race engines (American Iron and a few diesels), so I decided to put an oil pressure gauge on my engine to check new pumps oil pressure. It was in the stratosphere at 80 to 100 lbs while cruising at freeway speed. My truck has the .75 5th gear and the rpm's are under 4K @ 70 mph. The oil pressure requirement on a full-fledged race engine is 10 pounds per 1000 rpm - stock engines is ~6 psi/1K rpm; meaning our engines should never exceed 40-50 pounds oil pressure. My Cummins dually rarely exceeds 45 pounds and leaks and oil pressure are not a problem - even after 250K miles...
I built a blown hemi years ago for a pro-street car, and installed a customers Keith Black "top fuel" pump as he had requested. In less than 5 minutes it would suck the oil pan completely dry and register zero oil pressure !!! Extreme oil pressure can destroy an engine. Obviously, the VW diesel is at the other end of the extreme, but high oil pressure WILL cause leaks in ANY engine. Exceed more than 10 lbs/1K rpms and you're running higher pressure than most RACE engines. .Think about it
I decided to dig in a little deeper, and I've got some photos I can post if anyone wants to see why our engines run excessive oil pressure - excess pressure that pushes too much oil to the upper end, flooding the cylinder head, resulting in leaks. Maybe it's a pure coincidence that the valve cover gaskets and seals are the most poorly designed gaskets on these engines.
I've commented on excessively high oil pressures in the past, and I'm pretty sure someone else has posted about this, so I took a used oil pump apart I had lying around; drilled out the spring retainer plate; and removed the spring and bypass piston, cover and gears.
Turns out the clearance between the bypass piston and bore in the oil pump is so tight, that even the smallest of debris causes the bypass piston to lock up. I had to force its removal, and both piston and bore were significantly scored.
I'm planning to pull the pan and pump on my trick in the next few weeks and I'm going to ream the piston bore to give another .002 clearance. I'm also going to check spring rate, and order a lighter spring to get this thing down to ~40 psi max at cruise speed.
I'll keep you guys posted, but I'd be willing to bet most of our oil leaks would be eliminated, or at least significantly reduced, if we can just get the oil pressures down to reasonable levels (10 psi @ idle and <50 lbs cruising - hot).
Southernman
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#26
by
745 turbogreasel
on 13 Jun, 2014 06:20
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The only external oil leak caused by excessive pressure is somewhere north of 250 PSI, the filter either rips apart, or pulls off its threads.
Insufficient drainback may be a possibility.
The real challenge of our oil leakage is the positive pressure crankcase ventilation system making every seal want to leak.
How are these motors not able to exceed 6000 RPM?
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#27
by
Jetmugg
on 13 Jun, 2014 08:46
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I spun mine over 6K on multiple occasions at The Ohio Mile.
Not by much, but for sure over 6K. Dieselmeken AB build the pump to work at those RPM's.
I am a bit concerned about the location of the oil drainback from my turbo. It is plumbed through the back of the oil pan through a bulkhead fitting. I need to check the exact location of the bulkhead fitting with respect to the crank. I just want some piece of mind that the flow of the return line isn't somehow contributing to windage or frothing.
With respect to a mechanical gauge, I am not planning to install one due to the regulations associated with Land Speed Racing. It could not be plumbed directly from the engine to the dash, and I'm not looking to add more complexity in the form of an isolator and more external plumbing.
I am planning to install a secondary Oil Pressure warning light in the form of a large and bright "shift light" indicator next to the tach.
I did order a windage tray/OP gasket. I also have the opportunity to run on a chassis dyno again before Bonneville. That will provide some peace of mind.
Steve
Steve.
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#28
by
Jetmugg
on 13 Jun, 2014 08:50
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The good news is that there are NO external leaks on my engine. No valve cover leaks, no IM shaft leaks, no pan leaks. No leaks. Hooray.
I am running a 36 mm "turbo" oil pump, since the block is plumbed with oil squirters. It's a hydraulic lifter engine as well. If the OP loss continues to be an issue, I can (and will) swap in one of the smaller oil pumps as a trial (I've forgotten the mm size of the non-turbo oil pumps).
Steve.
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#29
by
Jetmugg
on 13 Jun, 2014 08:51
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Southernman - do you have a link to the other thread you were posting in?
Steve.