Tuned IDI vs VR6.

[Jaceb-GLI]

I don't mean this as a personal attack, but it seems to me like you started a thread asking for advice/information, but you're unwilling to hear what more knowledgeable people (not me) have to share with you.

Exactly.

[Rising]

I have a good understanding of the engine. The mechanical components may be able to spin to 7K.

Aint no way in hell I am downshifting at 50 mph to 4th in that car. Thats about 4,800 rpms. Thats spinning a bearing territory.

These guys are trying to help you. They know what they are talking about. You should really listen to them since its apparent to all you haven't done much research.

I have done more than my fair share of noob posts and I've disagreed with people before but they've always steered me in the right direction and I've learned a lot in the process. Don't just disagree because you don't want to hear what they are saying. Check into these things.

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[jaed_43725]

Yes 22 psi is 22 psi. It has more than enough air volume as well at higher RPM's. The K24 I had was a dog on this car. I tried to get the K14 down to 15 psi but the idiots at www.boostvalve.com will not answer their phone no matter what. I need a different spring to lower it.

OK, see these engines can spin to 6K. But they start defueling at 3300 RPM. Its a inherent issue with VE pumps. So even if you can get it so spin higher its a waste essentially unless you need to go that fast. Also a huge difference between these and their gas counterparts is the cam. You will run into all sorts of fun trouble trying to spin these things much higher than 6K. And even below 6K you run into problems with fuel timing.

I went back as I thought you said you had the ACH...even if you have the AVX 4th gear at 50mph will be 3,200 rpm, not 4,000. AGAIN, if you tach says 4,000 at 50mph it is wrong. Even if it did, 4,000 is not anything to worry about.

I made an error in reporting my RPM's at 40 mph. Since my speedo is 10 off, 40 is not bad to downshift in. But 50 I will not bother to as I have no guts at that point, which is about 3300.

Again my tach is pretty accurate. It has been verified with a timer.

As I have said before it has no problems accelerating to about 55. Its trying to go above that, that is the huge issue. And its exactly what you need to do to pass people going slow in a 55 zone. If I had a better tranny say a ACN it would greatly improve my top end capability as I would be close to the optimum 2,800 for 60. Or if I had a 4T geared one I would have a much better 4th and 5th. Any of those would put the car in the proper powerband.

Now to solve the fueling issue I talked to my local diesel guy. I will be going up there next month to work out some stuff using Cummins VE pump parts (Bosch factory stuff) to put in my pump so it will not defuel at 3,200. The goal is to have to fuel up to 5,500. That would solve the entire power problem. Why nobody has actually fixed these pumps to do that yet, is beyond me. But Cummins guys have been doing it for a long time. Think along these lines: http://www.mandhinc.net/DPD-1-F.html I may have to change out more than just those parts though. May have to end up doing some work to basically fit a 4-BT pump on the car.

[vanbcguy]

Now to solve the fueling issue I talked to my local diesel guy. I will be going up there next month to work out some stuff using Cummins VE pump parts (Bosch factory stuff) to put in my pump so it will not defuel at 3,200. The goal is to have to fuel up to 5,500. That would solve the entire power problem. Why nobody has actually fixed these pumps to do that yet, is beyond me. But Cummins guys have been doing it for a long time. Think along these lines: http://www.mandhinc.net/DPD-1-F.html I may have to change out more than just those parts though. May have to end up doing some work to basically fit a 4-BT pump on the car.

As previously mentioned, quite a few of us on here have done the governor mod.  There's even a sticky showing how to do it.  You don't need to change anything out - in fact using the Cummins stuff is probably not a good idea as they have a totally different style of governor.

http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=24323.0

You don't need a new pump, you don't need new parts from a Cummins, you just need a couple of washers and a little bit of your time.  I had mine set up to go to about 4800 RPM before cutting back on fuel, that was fine for me with my long ratio trans and K24.

[jaed_43725]

I did the governor mod already, been done for over a year now. Its pushed back to about 6K now. The governor mod does not alter where the fuel pin shuts down fueling.

I called Giles (he wasnt in) but he does make a fuel pin for these. That could potentially solve my passing issue. But it will not solve my top speed issue. That is a tranny problem.

[vanbcguy]

Wait wait wait...

Are you referring to the LDA on the top of the engine?  That absolutely does not shut down fueling.  It adds fuel when the turbo produces boost.  That's the only "fuel pin" on these pumps that I can think of. 

[RabbitJockey]

well, im glad you got it all figured out

[jaed_43725]

The fuel pin does have to do with boost. Its not directly tied to boost though. Just in the manner that more fuel earlier = faster spool. Its the same pin the Cummins guys change to keep fueling higher RPM's.

And I would like to thank people for answering my VR6 questions. I thought I was going to have to move to gas if I couldnt get this figured out.

Now I just have to find a proper trans.

[Toby]

You are not listening. You have a problem and it is NOT the transaxle. These are high speed diesel engines and 70 mph no matter what trans is right in its operating range. A 1.6TD is not a 7.3 Ford or a Cummins. They both redline ay 3,000. The 1.6TD redlines at ~5,100. It is fine running it at 4,500 all day. Remember that the diesel sweet spot is 90% rated sped and 80% rated load.

If you have done the governor mod then the IP (supposing its not FUBAR) will fuel past redline. If it falls on its face at or above 3,000 you have a problem. Its STILL going to fall on its face with the tallest transaxle you can find.

So long as the cam and IP are timed correctly you have a restriction somewhere. Fuel or air in, or exhaust out.

What turbo are you running?

What is the IP timed at? Have you verified that lately? Have you tried advancing the IP timing? If not. do that first. Its FREE and easy.

Did you use the proper lock plate when you timed the cam? An advanced cam can do this, as well

Have you verified fuel flow to the pump? If not, put 3-5psi in the tank and see if you get a nice steady, bubble free stream at the IP banjo on the clear line. You do still have the clear line, right?

Fuel can be restricted for any number of reasons: pinched line, snot in the sock in the tank; Algae clogging the sock, lines and/or brand new filter. Or you could have an air leak in the intake line.

You need to verify all of this stuff or you are just chasing your tail. This means ACTUALLY verifying this stuff, no matter how sure you are that they are fine. A huge number of problems are not found quickly or at all because somebody is ASSuming that this or that is correct when it is not.

OR

You can ignore us and change the tranny that you don't need, and come back here with your tail between your legs later or sell the car in disgust because you can't fix it.

Now, personally, I would just figure out what is wrong and drive happily on your way, but if you want to beat your head against the wall and piss away money, that is a decision only you can make. In any case, please keep us informed, because even that has a certain entertainment value in and of itself.

[vanbcguy]

The fuel pin does have to do with boost. Its not directly tied to boost though. Just in the manner that more fuel earlier = faster spool. Its the same pin the Cummins guys change to keep fueling higher RPM's.

Dude, I don't say this often but you are flat out wrong here. The LDA is most certainly directly tied to boost, the only force acting on it is boost. It doesn't touch anything in the pump that in any way changes with RPM.



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[jaed_43725]

The fuel pin does have to do with boost. Its not directly tied to boost though. Just in the manner that more fuel earlier = faster spool. Its the same pin the Cummins guys change to keep fueling higher RPM's.

Dude, I don't say this often but you are flat out wrong here. The LDA is most certainly directly tied to boost, the only force acting on it is boost. It doesn't touch anything in the pump that in any way changes with RPM. Sent from my HTC One XL using Tapatalk

I dont think we are thinking of the same fuel pin then. I know about the LDA and what you are meaning by it. And thats already been turned up as much as I can safely go. If it is the same pin then I need a new one, one with a better ramp on it.

The 7.3 IDI redlines at 3,800. And part of my problem is the trans. They may be high speed diesel engines but they still defuel at 3,300ish. And a properly geared trans will allow me to be in the narrow powerband much longer.
Gov mod is good. Will it get fuel past redline? Yes. Is it enough fuel to keep it going at about the same rate as below 3,300? No. Its because of the fuel pin bottoming out.
Timing is good. New fuel filter, air filter is good, and exhaust is 2.5" straight.
I am running a K14 at 22 psi.
Not sure what the timing is. It was set by a diesel shop that does truck pulling. I have turned up the max fuel a tad (its quite touchy).
I will check out those things you listed. If nothing else I can find something to do preventative maintenance on.

[TylerDurden]

If you really want to split hairs, the boost pin keeps the engine from overfueling when off-boost. It allows the control collar full movement when boost pressure moves the pin down.

"In the lower engine-speed range the charge-air pressure generated by the exhaust turbocharger and applied to the diaphragm is insufficient to overcome the pressure of the spring. The diaphragm remains in its initial position. As soon as the charge-air pressure applied to the diaphragm becomes effective, the diaphragm, and with it the sliding pin and control cone, shift against the force of the spring. The guide pin changes its position as a result of the control cone's vertical movement and causes the reverse lever to swivel around its pivot point M1 (Fig. #1). Due to the force exerted by the governor spring, there is a nonpositive connection between tensioning lever, reverse lever, guide pin, and sliding-pin control cone. As a result, the tensioning lever follows the reverse lever's swivelling movement, causing the starting lever and tensioning lever to swivel around their common pivot point thus shifting the control collar in the direction of increased fuel delivery. "


So you can call it boost-enrichment or whatever, but the failsafe is that it will not overfuel off-boost if the turbo fails.

The pin itself does not control max fuelling, the full-load screw (10) does. The pin helps determine when.


As for trannys... tonight I was driving my 86TD with an AGS in 5th gear:
50mph = 2500rpm
60mph = 2800rpm
70mph = 3200rpm
(too much traffic to go faster)

Stock tach, stock tires.

[jaed_43725]

#9 The control cone. Often called a fuel pin. Thats what Cummins guys change out to get more fuel in higher RPM's. Thats what I am going to ask Giles make for me.

And 3,200 rpm is much to close to the defueling point for me. 70 mph should be 2,800.

[theman53]

The fuel pin will only get you more fuel under boost, not higher RPM's. The governor mod will increase fueling in the upper RPM range as these guys are saying to you.  If you could see more around the picture TD just posted in the #s 10-13, that is the area acting on the gov. and that is what needs modded. If you can run to 6k and gov. mod was done, then the turbo you have is out of air.

The boost valve guys don't need to answer the phone...the knurled jam nut needs to be loosened and then you loosen the "bolt" and tighten the jam nut. Repeat until you get the desired boost you want. If this doesn't work, then you could have a stuck wastegate and no adjustment of the boost controller will help you until you fix the wastegate...which I have seen 3 K03 vw turbos that have had that happen and a few of the KKK turbos, so it happens a lot.

22psi of air in a semi truck tire has more air than 22 psi in a bicycle tire...similar to your turbo. That tiny thing is out of breath.

[bajacalal]

Yes 22 psi is 22 psi. It has more than enough air volume as well at higher RPM's. The K24 I had was a dog on this car. I tried to get the K14 down to 15 psi but the idiots at www.boostvalve.com will not answer their phone no matter what. I need a different spring to lower it.

OK, see these engines can spin to 6K. But they start defueling at 3300 RPM. Its a inherent issue with VE pumps. So even if you can get it so spin higher its a waste essentially unless you need to go that fast. Also a huge difference between these and their gas counterparts is the cam. You will run into all sorts of fun trouble trying to spin these things much higher than 6K. And even below 6K you run into problems with fuel timing.

I went back as I thought you said you had the ACH...even if you have the AVX 4th gear at 50mph will be 3,200 rpm, not 4,000. AGAIN, if you tach says 4,000 at 50mph it is wrong. Even if it did, 4,000 is not anything to worry about.

I made an error in reporting my RPM's at 40 mph. Since my speedo is 10 off, 40 is not bad to downshift in. But 50 I will not bother to as I have no guts at that point, which is about 3300.

Again my tach is pretty accurate. It has been verified with a timer.

As I have said before it has no problems accelerating to about 55. Its trying to go above that, that is the huge issue. And its exactly what you need to do to pass people going slow in a 55 zone. If I had a better tranny say a ACN it would greatly improve my top end capability as I would be close to the optimum 2,800 for 60. Or if I had a 4T geared one I would have a much better 4th and 5th. Any of those would put the car in the proper powerband.

Now to solve the fueling issue I talked to my local diesel guy. I will be going up there next month to work out some stuff using Cummins VE pump parts (Bosch factory stuff) to put in my pump so it will not defuel at 3,200. The goal is to have to fuel up to 5,500. That would solve the entire power problem. Why nobody has actually fixed these pumps to do that yet, is beyond me. But Cummins guys have been doing it for a long time. Think along these lines: http://www.mandhinc.net/DPD-1-F.html I may have to change out more than just those parts though. May have to end up doing some work to basically fit a 4-BT pump on the car.

The common Cummins Bosch VE upgrade is to replace the stock 2500 rpm spring with a 3300 rpm spring. That means those engines cut fuel long before ours do... Look into doing the governor mod. Great little increase in top end power without going into "blow up" mode. When my Cummins had a worn out governor spring (1 on the diagram, this controls the fuel at RPMs, the pin only controls how much fuel corresponds to X amount of boost), it would start to defuel at maybe 2200 rpm, and was so worn it wasn't giving a full fuel load at wide-open throttle. After the pump was rebuilt and a new governor spring installed, the difference was night and day.

I would be leery of having someone who has zero VW experience work on my pump though, there are some critical differences between this and a Cummins even if the (early) pumps are practically the same. But I really suspect there is something wrong internally with your injection pump or its not set right maybe static timing is way off or there is some restriction in your incoming fuel line or exhaust. Our pumps will send the motor all the fuel it wants if everything is working correctly.

I also suggest a 0.71:1 fifth gear, but you really shouldn't be passing people uphill in fifth, that's just going to spike EGTs.