Franken-TD for an '84 Coupe: Like i need another hole in my build thread

[TimpanogosSlim]

I hate timing belts. I'm sure if i was doing this for a living (I'd be fired!) i would learn some tricks of the trade or just get better at it but i spent the whole afternoon chasing one tooth off on one cog or other.

The brass hinge as cam lock trick works but i think my brass hinge is thinner than the one used by the guy who told me about this trick. I ended up having to shim it with a lot of adhesive aluminum tape. good thing i have a couple rolls of that stuff.

I wish there were a crank shaft lock tool for the mk1 diesels. near as i can tell, there isn't. I also wish i had the lock tool for the injection pump sprocket.

basically after some trial and error with the ersatz cam lock, i figured out that i shouldn't tighten the bolt on the camshaft sprocket until I'm completely done with timing (should have paid more attention to the bentley manual) and then discovered that with the cam at TDC and the injection pump apparently at TDC the crank had slipped a tooth or two.

re-loosened the idler and re-centered the crank.

discovered that the IP was now off by at least a tooth. re-loosened the idler and re-centered the IP.

Discovered that i had slack on the wrong side of the crank. re-loosened, etc, PITA.

If i were doing this a lot i would need to buy the tool that locks the IP and fab a tool that locks the crank (maybe modify the TDI tool), and fab a better cam lock that that i can bolt down onto the valve cover studs.

As the light of day was fading, i managed to drop an M8x30 bolt and washer down the crankcase breather.

After some fiddling i got them to get off the intermediate shaft and fall down into the pan.

I then determined that my dial indicator is incompatible with my VE timing adapter and decided to call it a day.

[vanbcguy]

Woweee! Sounds like you tried to do all the "what not to do" things in one go...

It gets easier, trust me.

[RabbitJockey]

Woweee! Sounds like you tried to do all the "what not to do" things in one go...

It gets easier, trust me.

yep, its all about keeping the slack between the cam and crank.  i used to really have to fuss with them when timing them up but now i can do it pretty quickly and efficiently, but i did it wrong many many times and had to keep redoing it in the past.  also gotta keep the cam sprocket loose with the bolt ran in, that way the only thing u need to align is the crank and pump.  some times u gotta hold the pump a little clockwise(maybe ccw?) while putting on the belt so that there is no slack between the ip and cam.

[rabbid79]

Slim, if you want to come by sometime this weekend, I can lend you most of the tools you need.  I'm in Orem.  PM me if interested.

[TimpanogosSlim]

Woweee! Sounds like you tried to do all the "what not to do" things in one go...

It gets easier, trust me.

Yeah that's how i learn.

I've done maybe half a dozen timing belts in my life and they have all been more or less like this experience. diesel is just one sprocket worse.

I had the good fortune to find a respectable tech who would do my mk5 GTI's belt and water pump for $200 earlier this year. Worth the money, IMHO, for a daily driver. and i didn't have much free time back then. I recall burning two whole weekends on my mk4 belt - once to do it wrong, once to fix it.

the best part was when the M6 bolt required to retract the pneumatic tensioner on a 1.8T broke while trying to remove it from the tensioner.

Good times. good times.

I think i found a metric dial indicator compatible with my timing adapter on ebay for about $20 but I am going to see if i can borrow one locally to get this thing on the road sooner rather than later. zukgod1 may have one but his current shop is a good 20 minute drive from my house.

[theman53]

Some have used an 11mm deep craftsman socket to lock the IP. It would be better than nothing.

[TimpanogosSlim]

I recall being aware of that trick at some point in the past but didn't recall it yesterday. I was using the old crank bolt plus a bunch of tape and it didn't really work. I have both craftsman and harbor freight deep sockets in sae and metric so i should have been able to find a close fit. I think i have the belt sorted at this point but perhaps i will figure out if i have the right socket for the task so i know for sure next time i need to lock the IP.

.:Sent by pneumatic tubes

[TimpanogosSlim]

Using Rabbid's excellent tools, i verified my timing belt positioning and set the IP to 1mm advance.

That's putting it rather simply though.

The bentley manual's instructions for adjusting the IP are sort of unclear. Vince Waldon's instructions are more clear, but the part that was still going way over my head for the first five tries was that the whole idea is that when the engine is returned to TDC from the dead spot in the plunger's travel, the plunger should have advanced 1mm. Or whatever you are going for.

Would have also been nice if either source had pointed out that it's fine if you overshoot the point where the needle on the indicator stops moving, that doesn't matter even a little, because there's a range of movement in the timing where the plunger isn't moving because it is fully retracted.

I find it interesting that some people shim the cam lock with feeler gauges when there is certainly some tiny amount of play in timing belts and in the IP locking pin. Not to mention the amount of additive slop between the crankshaft cog and the flywheel's TDC notch. One way or another, it seems that these things have to be dialed in based on actual performance over time. if there was slop in the cam lock that resulted in a .05mm difference in IP advance, that's negligible considering the ages of our engines and pumps, potential pump modifications, etc. I'm pretty sure we all end up either putting up with not quite right performance or tweaking it later.

Anyway. Sorted for the time being.

I had the alternator out for testing. oddly enough the kid at o'reilly auto parts couldn't test it, but the kid at autozone could. Tests good, but i know that the rings are in bad shape. We'll see how well it charges the battery. reman alternators aren't hard to come by.

and i broke the wire off of the connector for the shutoff solenoid so I'll have to repair that.

I'll want to put the cluster back into the dash probably.

I'd sort of prefer to put the lift pump on a fused circuit, and it would be neat to find somewhere to install the hour meter i bought. That means i need to identify and tap the line for the IP shutoff solenoid behind the fusebox, probably install a relay and an inline fuse.

I've got wires in the engine compartment waiting to be shoved through a grommet into the cabin for the oil pressure sender.

Also need to hook up illumination power to the 3 gauges i'm adding.

A very small amount of diesel has been sitting in the tank for more than a year. I think the first drive will be around the corner to the Maverik to fill it up with fresh new diesel.

[libbydiesel]

I find it interesting that some people shim the cam lock with feeler gauges when there is certainly some tiny amount of play in timing belts and in the IP locking pin.

There really isn't.  When the engine is running, the crank drives the pump and cam and the belt is held taut keeping the timing of the IP and cam very precise.

Not to mention the amount of additive slop between the crankshaft cog and the flywheel's TDC notch.

There is absolutely zero slop between the crank sprocket and the flywheel TDC notch.  The entire assembly is bolted solidly together.  If you have any slop there is something seriously wrong that needs to be corrected immediately.

if there was slop in the cam lock that resulted in a .05mm difference in IP advance, that's negligible considering the ages of our engines and pumps, potential pump modifications, etc.

The cam is timing does not affect the injection pump timing regardless of whether the cam timing is advanced, correct or retarded.  Similarly, the IP does not affect the cam timing either. 

[TimpanogosSlim]

Slop was the wrong word.

What i mean is, all the manufacturing tolerances from the crank sprocket to the bell housing, plus the inherent limited accuracy of eyeballing the timing marks.

"exactly TDC" likely can't be found without putting a dial indicator on top of cylinder 1. Just like any other engine.

It's just worse for us because the cam sprocket is necessarily not keyed.

didn't feel well today, all i managed to do was put the alternator back in and put the breather stuff back together.

either the belt the previous owner marked "PS" is from some other car or i seriously don't understand the v-belt routing. I'm under the impression that it goes from the crank, around the top of the water pump, around the power steering pump, and then back. The belts were already off when i got the car, and this one is far too short to go around all 3 and clearly too big to go around just the power steering pump and the water pump, which i am pretty sure would be wrong anyway. I'll have to look at the bentley again tomorrow. Curiously, NAPA offers 3 different lengths for the power steering belt in a non-AC 84 diesel.

[vanbcguy]

There are a number of different pulley and belt setups that VW used. Some have the PS belt around just the PS pump and crank without touching the WP at all.

[TimpanogosSlim]

Well, i have double pulleys pn crank and wp, and the ps pulley is shimmed out to the 2nd position.

The belt marked alt fits the alt looped through the first pulley on the wp but i couldn't make it work for the ps pump. The one labeled ps is substantially shorter.

.:Sent by pneumatic tubes

[TimpanogosSlim]

regardless of some unfinished electrics and no power steering, I finished up the last of the necessities and put the battery in.

The lift pump does an ok job of priming the system, such as things are.

I realized that i hadn't put the plug back in the timing port when it started pissing diesel. Oops.

There was another spill when i decided to see if i could get the last bubble out of the feed line to the IP by pulling it off the barb. While the lift pump was running. So i sprayed diesel all over the engine. but hey it worked right?

long story short I'm to a state where i consistently get white smoke and the occasional cylinder fires but it hasn't kicked over.

I've been advised to crack the injection lines and crank until they are squirting diesel, then tighten them back down and try again. Tomorrow.

Also, it was too late in the day when i realized that i could glow and crank a lot longer with jumper cables hooked up to a running land cruiser. oh well.

[deepgrooves74]

regardless of some unfinished electrics and no power steering, I finished up the last of the necessities and put the battery in.

The lift pump does an ok job of priming the system, such as things are.

I realized that i hadn't put the plug back in the timing port when it started pissing diesel. Oops.

There was another spill when i decided to see if i could get the last bubble out of the feed line to the IP by pulling it off the barb. While the lift pump was running. So i sprayed diesel all over the engine. but hey it worked right?

long story short I'm to a state where i consistently get white smoke and the occasional cylinder fires but it hasn't kicked over.

I've been advised to crack the injection lines and crank until they are squirting diesel, then tighten them back down and try again. Tomorrow.

Also, it was too late in the day when i realized that i could glow and crank a lot longer with jumper cables hooked up to a running land cruiser. oh well.

Just be careful not to fry your starter… Give it a chance to recover. I had a friend who just kept on turning his motor over and over and over again, and then all the sudden the starter just wouldn't work anymore. It seems silly, but just make sure you don't let it crank for too long…

[TimpanogosSlim]

Yeah, i did think to keep an eye on that.

.:Sent by pneumatic tubes