Broken lifter - stupid, stupid, stupid - page 2 - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
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#15 by Gizmoman on 05 May, 2013 15:05
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Agreed.
I plan on driving the pump pre-start as I have read on here several times.
As you can see in the photos, I have everything lubed up well.
All is back together and torqued to 125 - man that's tight! Hopefully the valve is fine. If the parts were local and I knew exactly what I was getting BEFORE I bought it, I might buy a new lifter and valve. As it is I am collecting quite a pile of useless bits.
Paper exhaust gaskets(no thanks)
Mains that are one step under size
Timing belt that has too many teeth
Timing tensioner that isn't as wide as it should be or have the correct off-set to line up.
11 mm head bolts
Getting a KS lifter, a KS exhaust valve and an 8 mm seal could be a tough find from where I sit. All could be for no reason - just to reduce worry. The valve shows no damage based on the run-out numbers. It also slides real smooth in the guide.
Heck, I can't find that goofy domed shaped nut that goes on the back bolt on the IP. Jim Ellis has one and it will run me 16 bucks by the time it gets here!. I'm holding off figuring it will show up (I know I saw it somewhere). -
#16 by Rock3tman on 05 May, 2013 18:02
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...I don't mean to threadjack, but am just completing a headgasket job on a 1.9 N/A in the car and this thread has me concerned. When I was re-installing the head over the hand tightened ARP studs, I had the cam locked with the timing plate at number 1 cylinder TDC. The pistons were still at number 1 cylinder TDC as well.
Am I OK with respect to potential valve interference with the pistons?
The reason I ask is that when torqueing the third step to 125 I twisted off the 3/8" socket extension that's 3" long (Chinese cheap stuff). I then went to 1/2" high quality everywhere on the torque rig and all was fine. Applying that last torque to 125 was a bit scary - - you're right, that's a **** of a lot of force!
I used hylomar spray on a two-hole gasket, replacing what was in there originally; that's some sticky stuff. -
#17 by libbydiesel on 05 May, 2013 18:16
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I like to have the cam caps loosened when installing the head. My second choice is to put the pistons mid bore. My third choice is to have it at TDC for #1 and keep the bar in the end of the cam. All of those scenarios work.
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#18 by Toby on 05 May, 2013 19:45
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OK,
I checked the run-out with the valve still in the head. Its .000175" out which is as near to perfect as it could get (yes, that's the correct number of zeros).
Actually that is NOT the correct number of "0"s. You can't measure 175 millionths of an inch with a test indicator like that one. Your resolution is only .0005"
In addition to that the slop in a new guide with the new valve up is several thousandths of an inch. Just the clearance taken up by the oil is more than 2 "tenths" .0002".
To do this in a meaningful way you need to have the valve in a V block or better yet a pair of V blocks with a stop and then rotate the valve with the indicator on the face.
Or you could chuck it up in a lathe with an 8mm/5/16" collet and run the indicator on the face. Otherwise you can't be sure of what you have. The valve stem may be bent inside the guide and the head may still look true.
Its not likely hurt, but with the IDI propensity for losing valve heads, I would be SURE or replace the valve. I will post you a pic of the aftermath tomorrow. -
#19 by TylerDurden on 05 May, 2013 19:49
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...I don't mean to threadjack, but am just completing a headgasket job on a 1.9 N/A in the car and this thread has me concerned. When I was re-installing the head over the hand tightened ARP studs, I had the cam locked with the timing plate at number 1 cylinder TDC. The pistons were still at number 1 cylinder TDC as well.
Am I OK with respect to potential valve interference with the pistons?
Yeah, it should be ok. -
#20 by Gizmoman on 05 May, 2013 20:37
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All good points and you are correct on the math - my mistake. The reading in the photo is the high spot from zero. Is this too much?OK,
I checked the run-out with the valve still in the head. Its .000175" out which is as near to perfect as it could get (yes, that's the correct number of zeros).
Actually that is NOT the correct number of "0"s. You can't measure 175 millionths of an inch with a test indicator like that one. Your resolution is only .0005"
In addition to that the slop in a new guide with the new valve up is several thousandths of an inch. Just the clearance taken up by the oil is more than 2 "tenths" .0002".
To do this in a meaningful way you need to have the valve in a V block or better yet a pair of V blocks with a stop and then rotate the valve with the indicator on the face.
Or you could chuck it up in a lathe with an 8mm/5/16" collet and run the indicator on the face. Otherwise you can't be sure of what you have. The valve stem may be bent inside the guide and the head may still look true.
Its not likely hurt, but with the IDI propensity for losing valve heads, I would be SURE or replace the valve. I will post you a pic of the aftermath tomorrow.
I indicated the seat as that should be the truest portion of the valve. I also turned it very gently with my fingertip as it rested against the seal. I know this is not as perfect as could be but I was very diligent in the way I did it and feel confident in the results. I did it many times and all readings were the same.
Pulling the valve would mean I'd need to find a single 8 mm seal. Had the reading been higher, I would have pulled it.
After all is said, there's no point in "checking" the valve past what I have done unless I were replacing it and as I stated before, I doubt I will unless you tell me that the reading on the dial is too much run-out. It seems to me that if the valve stem were bent , it would have felt even a slight bit sticky as I slid and turned it in the guide - it was smooth as silk.
I know what a piston would look like if the head popped off and I know I'm gambling. If I felt 100% confident I could find a valve that was exactly like the brand new KS valve that is in there, I'd buy it.
As I stated earlier, buying parts for this has really been a nightmare. Every site wants to have a year, and model - all I can do is guess. Then when they send the wrong part I've got no leg to stand on because I don't have any solid info. For instance, the only one hole gasket I could find was in England and it ended up costing 116 bucks (56 was VAT) and I had to settle for a brand I'd never heard of.
I am loosing patience, but certainly don't want to build a self-destructing motor. If you know where I can get a single KS exhaust valve with an 8 mm stem, please let me know.
Thanks.
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#21 by wolf_walker on 05 May, 2013 22:04
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Might consider having a speed shop/machine shop with a good rep check that valve.
I know it blows but it really is better safe than sorry in this case.
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#22 by bajacalal on 05 May, 2013 23:47
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...I don't mean to threadjack, but am just completing a headgasket job on a 1.9 N/A in the car and this thread has me concerned. When I was re-installing the head over the hand tightened ARP studs, I had the cam locked with the timing plate at number 1 cylinder TDC. The pistons were still at number 1 cylinder TDC as well.
Am I OK with respect to potential valve interference with the pistons?
Official VW procedure is rotate the pistons back from TDC to where they're all at mid bore, then reset timing after head installation. I think the reason is because it you can snag the valves on one of the exposed pistons while trying to position the head but it shouldn't hurt anything if you did.
As far as the original question... That's not really a good way to check it, you need an actual surface that's flawlessly flat. But I don't think what happened is as bad as snapping a belt. The latter involves engine rotation so you have a lot of force because the engine rotating parts have a lot of mass and are moving at a high velocity. -
#23 by Gizmoman on 06 May, 2013 06:26
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Thanks for all the responses - I really do appreciate every one.
After a rough night pondering I am going to stop being so bullheaded and just take everyone's advice. The measurement I took shows .00175 TIR (I did have too many zeros). The indicator has a resolution of .0005 (each line). TIR was 3 and 1/2 lines. I figure .0005 + .0005 + .0005 + .00025 = .00175 - this is very likely bent. I have a lathe and a mill but I am no machinist and am not used to reading this tiny gauge. If I am wrong in how I am figuring this, please let me know - we never stop learning.
While the WAY I took it is not the best, I was doing the actual measuring and am confident in the results - at least enough to show that I should pull it and I will. After that I can check it properly as has been suggested. I have a small V-block and I may even have the correct collet.
The good news is that I went the expense of ARP studs which I believe can be torqued many times without needing to be replaced. I also didn't use any sealer on the gasket but chose to wipe both surfaces down with lacquer thinner to remove all traces of oil.
The hunt is on for one KS exhaust valve with an 8 mm stem, a single 8 mm seal and a KS lifter. If anyone has links to these parts (or part numbers) it would be greatly appreciated.
I found this http://www.rmeuropean.com/Part-Number/Exhaust-Valve-(8-mm-Stem)-__048109611B_INT_FC162DCB.aspx
Can anyone tell me if this is the correct part number? I only have access to Parts Base.org and for some reason, valves or lifters aren't in their database.
Thanks again everyone, I'll keep you posted. -
#24 by burn_your_money on 06 May, 2013 07:11
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Are you planning on getting a new headgasket?
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#25 by libbydiesel on 06 May, 2013 07:30
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The hydro lifters are all the same and available from anyone who sells VW parts. Get a quality brand and you're all set on that. I'm a little surprised that your new AAZ head came with 8mm valves. The newer AAZ engines came with 7mm valves so I would expect a new head to come with the newer parts. Anyway, the 8mm valve stem seals are also readily available pretty much anywhere.
They're proud of that valve...
http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/products/Volkswagen-VW//EuroVan/Exhaust-valve/1995/5135012/074109611.html
The head gasket has now been compressed and should be replaced. I suppose since you already have the ARP studs, trying it to see if it leaks will probably happen right off and only cost you labor. That said, it's a fair bit of labor to replace and there is some chance of failure on the road with resulstant overheating, etc, etc... -
#26 by wolf_walker on 06 May, 2013 08:22
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See, if you'da gona two notch...
I'm kidding I'm kidding.
Stay the course man, I know it's a screaming bummer but it'll work out
and the little motor will serve you for ages when all is done.
http://www.1stvwparts.com those guys are in the NW and were great on some dealer-only parts I needed
recently, guy named Zeb.
I'm 90% sure this is your lifter, but I'm not awake yet..
https://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=cmcks145ynx152zoysi4apjw&partnumber=034%20109%20309%20AD
They have the valve cheap, but they aren't German, 1stvw has it for $37..
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#27 by Toby on 06 May, 2013 09:29
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They're proud of that valve...
http://www.jimellisvwparts.com/products/Volkswagen-VW//EuroVan/Exhaust-valve/1995/5135012/074109611.html
Proud of the valve??!!
They are psychotic. $63 should be the price of 1/2 a dozen valves. I hope nobody here is actually buying parts there.
http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1996/volkswagen/golf/engine_mechanical/exhaust_valve.html -
#28 by wolf_walker on 06 May, 2013 10:51
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Think that's bad, go buy Porsche valves. Or VariocamII lifters for a late M96 motor..
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#29 by Gizmoman on 06 May, 2013 20:08
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Wow - Thanks everyone for the links, advice and encouragement. I really thought the gasket would be fine as I really cleaned the deck and head good and at 125 lbs per stud it's hard to believe it could compress (or give) any more. That thing was spendy as well and I had to get it from England and pay 50+ VAT. Oh well.
I'll check the valves again when I get the "bent" one out but I know I used 8 mm seals after I ported it. Maybe it's a blessing in disguise and the valves are 7 mm and I put the wrong seals in
Any chance I could use one of the the valves from my old head (assuming they are 8 mm). New or used, do I need to "seat" the replacement valve with lapping compound? I spoze with the Parts Geek valve - why use used - besides, they know me by name now