Oil flying everywhere! What's up with that?

[ORCoaster]

In my adventures of the week I removed the intake and exhaust manifolds and was in the process of putting on the new header and exhaust system.  But I also needed to change oil and I took the liberty to install one of those Frantz toilet paper filters.  In my efforts to check that oil filter I took the return line and put it into the empty oil jug to judge the return flow back to the oil pan.

It is colder here than normal and the car had trouble smoothing out. I noticed air blowing out the intake ports and then I had oil spraying out the back as well.  Do those holes that hold the manifold go all the way through the head somehow?  I don't remember that being a problem in the past.  I had half a quart of oil running down the back of the engine by the time I got it shut off.  I ended up with about two quarts of oil in the jug from the Frantz filter.  About that time I think I started to drain the oil pan down to the point that air was getting into the lines of that filter and that started oil shooting everywhere out the tee I had on the line and hanging on top the jug.  I was smart enough to take the car out of the garage and into the driveway.  Good thinking there.

I am not sure if I have bad rings or not.  Tomorrow or the next day I will have the compression tester on it but last time, 6mts ago, I had nearly 480 on all four cylinders.   

Any ideas where the oil out the back might have been coming from.  I don't think it was the gasket as that is new and the vent hose was off of the top of the VC. 

Hope to get this straightened out. 

[damac]

The exhaust studs and intake bolts don't go into any oil jackets?

So your valve cover gasket?

[R.O.R-2.0]

after a head gasket service, i start the engine with no manifolds, just to make sure that its worth it to finish putting it back together..

ive never had oil running out of my manifold bolt holes..

exhaust studs are way too low for that..

the intake holes MIGHT be high enough to be at oil level, but they should not be drilled thru the casting..

[ORCoaster]

Kind of what I thought as I too leave off the manifolds when i did the Head Gasket just a few months ago.  So why now with the oil I don't know. 

Damac, I had the hose off the top of the Valve cover so no possible back pressure there.  Smoke was puffing out of it like a locomotive.

And why was that?

Went over this morning with the help of #1 son here for the Turkey feed.  We pulled the injector lines and bodies and threw on the Harbor Freight compression tester dealy.

#1 cyl =  480 lbs
#2      =  480 lbs
Looking good and hoping for good things. 

#3      =  200 lbs   oh no! 
#4      =  500 lbs


So now what?  Buy a set of regular rings and replace the possibly worn or broken ones?
Pull head, measure cylinder, determine damage or wear and do a one oversize replacement?

Can you do just one piston replacement? 

Let me know what you think.  And don't fall asleep with the turkey belly before you finish the reply.

[TylerDurden]

... don't fall asleep with the turkey belly before you finish the reply.

Vegetarian here.

If you had 400+ before, I think the rings are likely ok. Particularly, if you didn't notice a manifold full of oil when taking things apart.

I would re-torque the head and see if the compression readings change. There might be a bum gasket, or a problem with installation.

[ORCoaster]

There might be a bum gasket, or a problem with installation.

Tyler,  Not a bad suggestion but I don't have oil or gas build up in the coolant.  Hence i am thinking the rings.  Would I not have those as symptoms?  Did get it running long enough to have a nice cloud of blue smoke surrounding the engine compartment.  A haze of sorts. 

My son tells me the problem is in the age of the car and age of the mechanic.  Mechanic being the worst, and older of the two.  Smart alack kid. 

Right at the end of all of this he asks as he is standing on drivers side looking into the engine bay,
"What's with the boot off the axle there?"  Crap, time to throw in the wrench and call it a holiday.  Axle out tomorrow I guess.  Not sure how it came off but it's off.  And just recently, like while in the buddy's garage as there is no grease thrown about anywhere. 

When it rains it pours I guess.

[TylerDurden]

Rings don't usually go bad in 6mo, unless one breaks, IIRC. 

Oil out the manifolds sounds more like bad valve guides & seals. A bad guide, lifter or valve seat might also get you pressure out the intake and bad compression reading.

Why the recent HG? Any other history of this engine that could be related?

[ORCoaster]

Ah history does tell.  New HG actually goes with the new head rebuild so all gaskets, valve seals, valve guides and head components are only in service for a few months.  I broke the injector boss on the #1 cylinder at some point and figured best replace the head before the problems got worse.

Rings were not part of that fix and there are 137K on them.  But mention of the valve clearance makes me wonder about the pressure.  I did have an issue with them previously and had to replace a couple of shims when I got the head torque down after the first 5-800 miles.  Seats could be setting in or out I guess.

More to ponder after a plate of mama's best all day efforts.  Smelling super good in here.

[burn_your_money]

Can you do a leak down test?

[ORCoaster]

I might be able to  pull a GP and hook up a vacuum gauge to in with a tee and see if I can get it to show something that way. 

Think it might be related to small cracks between the two ports?  They weren't bad but may have gotten worse in the last month. 

[ORCoaster]

Only had a touch of time to devote to this problem today.  Had an axle boot to reinstall, don't even know how that came off, and the Exhaust fix that needed welding.  No hope on that today.  I think every shop in town had the day off.  Makes you wonder if you ever have trouble traveling over the holidays who is going to be open to fix it? 

But on the engine problem.  #3 cylinder set with lobes up and I was able to measure .013 mm on the intake and .040 on the exhaust.  Right in the middle of the range on the exhaust but the intake was a bit tight as .020 is the middle for that one.  So the clearances are good on #3.

Goofy thing was that the intake on #4 was 0.00 I could not get the .0015 in between the cam and the shim.  And this is the cylinder with the best compression.  500 lbs, so I don't know what to make of that.  Other than it might be limiting the amount of air into the cylinder.  I still plan to slip the proper shim in there after the piston check. 

I will need to run my compressor over to the buddies house in order to air up the cylinder with a gauge.  I thought about the vacuum method but I don't have a way to suck the air out?  Maybe the shop vac? 

I will have to leave this beast alone for a couple of weeks as I need to return to Portland on Sunday and won't get back here until sometime the following week.  Going to be moving out soon and stop all the silly long distance commute.  But I still want the car to run as it should for the times I do need to get up there for business.

Any other Ideas, Or just tear the head and oil pan off and pull the piston and see what the heck is the problem?  I was just hoping that it wouldn't come to that.   

[745 turbogreasel]

Were the lifters  checked fro cracks where they contact the valve stem?  I'm not sure how or if it affects clearance or operation when they are caved in, but it does happen.

[TylerDurden]

AIUI, too little clearance will allow the valve to open earlier & close later... that could result in the pulses out of the intake. Just guessing, but maybe it gets a bigger gulp of air too - higher pressure might be the result.

I'd change out the shims before tearing the thing down.

I really can't see how bad rings are going to blow oil out the head, or even let oil into the cylinder.

I *have* heard of oil-drains in the head/block getting plugged and oil getting every-frickin-where.


Watch out for the engine spinning with the compressed air...

[theman53]

If it ran before I would put the manifolds back on and run it. I don't quite understand your dilema I guess. These engines have a bit of back blow into the intake around idle, maybe it was just some of that? If you just went through it I wouldn't worry about it too much until something actually gets bad.

[ORCoaster]

TheMan53,  This engine just got a new head and I successfully drove it down from Portland the night before and didn't notice any problems other than a slight lack of power on the hills.  So I would downshift to third and just run it back up to 50 mph.  When I would get to the top of the hill and go for the clutch and forth gear it would run on up in revs.  The first time it did this I thought it was just the normal hang of the throttle but I haven't had that problem in a long time after I adjusted down.  So on the next one I thought to let it go a bit more and it went into a run on situation.  I figured I was burning oil at that point somehow and the intake and filter were black with it when I pulled it off. 

So my trouble is mainly related to the push of oil into the air box.  Maybe I just need the oil splash pan on top the cam to solve that problem.  But getting my 200 lbs of pressure back in #3 cylinder is also necessary.  Could it be that the HG is routing pressure into the oil system and not the coolant?  Don't they generally pop a pretty big gap and get the coolant in some manner? 

I did put it all back together and there is a haze that builds around the car from the problem.  Incomplete burn of diesel or oil I am not sure they both have that bluish haze in the sun.  Yes it did shine once and I noticed the color then.  I am familiar with the blow into the intake at idle and this was way more than that.  Like a factor of three or so.  So I think things are already bad and sourcing the problem. 


TylerD.  I don't think the oil drains are plugged because I just had the head rebuilt and all were open and doing great for the last couple of months.  Just recently, the last three weeks it has been snotty on start until it warmed up and then consumed or just pushed the oil out to the intake and filter.  Had to throw two quarts in it one right after the other and that was not normal.  I am thinking bad rings equals poor compression but that is only a guess.  I didn't have my torque wrench with me to try the head bolts again.  So that still needs to be tried before I go and pull the head completely.  Safe and cheap thing to do.

Thanks for the suggestions.  I was looking at rings and pistons just in case and there seems to be a big spread on prices for them.  I think that question was presented here once already and there were some links for the answers.  Can't remember if Gotez or Grants were recommended.

Later DAS