Setting the timing question??

[mtnbob]

  Ok, please be patient with me on this, it's my first time putting an engine in a car, and I've never timed a pump before. I looked over Vince's tutorial and have been pouring over both of my Bentley books. I'm still really lost   I do not have a dial gauge, and need to set it up without one.

Here's where I currently stand.

1) I currently have the camshaft set with the proper locking tool at TDC, valves are closed over piston #1.

2) The crank is set with the dot on the crank sprocket pointing straight down. The number one piston is not at top dead center, but down just a bit.

3) The locking pin is in injector pump. When I put the flywheel on, the mark is not pointing up.

4) I put the timing belt on and tightened it down with the tensioner.


I don't know where to go from here, or how to get this thing properly set up. Any help or suggestions of where to look would be greatly appreciated. I also would appreciate a way to set the tension on the timing belt properly without the tool, since I don't have one.

[ORCoaster]

Well number 3 has me wondering why the IP is pinned and the marks on the pulley are not pointing at the mark on the bracket.  That means you need to turn it over 180 degrees.  Or did we figure out this pump is off internally by that much?

If you look in the Bentley it should show a picture of a guys hand twisting the belt at a 45 degree angle.  That is how much it should move if you grab it between the cam and the IP.  You shouldn't have to give it much of an effort to make it go that way.  That is the tension adjustment I use, less is better than more when it comes to tension on the front of the IP shaft.  Otherwise you wear out the front seal early. 

I think you are very close but fix that IP pulley first or it will not run right.  Unless of course you know the internal is off 180 degrees.  So many of these pumps on here with nearly the same trouble it is hard to keep track of them.

[mtnbob]

I'm actually taking a chance with the injection pump. I purchased it as a supposed "working fine pump" I have tried to keep it filled with diesel, and hoping the seals haven't dried out. The flywheel mark is what is not pointing straight up. The pulley on the injection pump has a mark on it that is almost perfectly lining up with the mark on the cover

1) I am probably way off, but first I thought that piston #1 was supposed to me tdc, but when I set it with it that way, the dot on the crank pulley didn't point straight up or down. I then read that it was supposed to be down just a bit, and when I set it that way, the dot on the crank pulley pointed straight down. So I left it that way.

2) I then set the camshaft so that the locking bar fit into the slot, which also closed both valves on piston #1, which is what Vince's instructions said.

3) I then left the bolts on the injection pump slightly loose so that I could adjust it later and lined up the pump to where the locking pin would fit into the slot on the inj pump pulley.

4) I then installed the timing belt and tensioned it somewhat

5) I then installed the clutch and flywheel and found that the flywheel tdc mark was not straight up as I thought it should be.

Soooooooo I knew I'm probably screwing this up and I'm throwing myself on the helpfulness of the great people in this group to help me get back on the road!!

Do not worry about insulting me!! I know that my level of knowledge is nowhere near what it needs to be yet, but I'm learning and I owe it to the help I have gotten from here!!!! I also have to have this car running by Monday, or I have no job

[fatmobile]

The dot on the crank pully is messing you up.
 It's supposed to be closer to 7:30 when the crank is at TDC. Not 6:00.
 
 Go by the mark on the flywheel.
 Cam sprocket is loose?

 Do you have a 13/10mm wrench in the spare tire tool kit? You can use many things to lock the cam but that little wrench fits soooo good.

 Cam locked with cam sprocket loose, crank moved to TDC mark through the bell housing hole.
 Paint the mark and pointer white so you can see them easily,
  also put a white mark on the front of the injection pump sprocket, since the notch is on the back and not easily seen.

 Line up the injection pump/bracket/sprocket marks.
 Put the belt on, tighten the cam bolt enough to keep it from spinning but not fully yet.
 Remove cam locker.

 Adjust the belt tension until you can turn it more than 45 degrees but less than 90, when twisting between cam and pump.
 The real goal is to make the belt just tight enough to stop flopping between the crank and idler when reving arouund 2000 RPM.

 Turn the engine over by hand twice, reinstall the cam locker, then check the flywheel timing mark, readjust if needed then turn it by hand and check again until marks are all lined up.

 Floor it while cranking until it starts.
 Leave the upper timing cover off so you can watch for belt flop as you rev it.

[CRSMP5]

your bout to bend somethin if for 2 things... not at tdc... using the dot on crank pully... gotta bolt tranny to it... use flywheel tdc..

now crank sprocket.. if tooth/crank snout 100% undmaged... the bolt hole beside dot points to the middle oil pan bolt.. aka lines up.. but if spocket/snout damaged at all.. this all be wrong... so like he said.. dot 7-8 o'clock.. the bolt hole lines up with casting on front main seal/oil pan..

i use that for my "2 turns" and such... but only flywheel for "real timming" and NEVER turn the crank bolt ccw... you need to find a different way to do so when doing your pump timming.. most use the alt to turn it ccw... but no alt installed yet i assume.. so maybe 2 bolts screwed int crank pully.. then long screw driver between them to turn it..

[ORCoaster]

Got him covered.  Seems his error is the crank dot position and not using Flywheel TDC mark.  This thing will start if you do it as Fat or CRS say.

[mtnbob]

Ty I'm heading out to put the transmission on and set the timing now. Will the pump be close enough to get it running this way, and then I just have to adjust the pump by ear and feel?

 

[rs899]

What they said.  Use the flywheel mark.  When I have flywheels exposed I spray paint them red, then yellow then green on the edge as they go towards the hashmark so I can see where I am when I turn em.

On the pump- maybe if you live right....I think you will need the dial indicator but you may get lucky.

[CRSMP5]

just do not be like the guy who paid me $75... he did headgasket, turbo, intake on a 97 tdi... got it all together... runs like poo.. tows it over.. while cranking its billowing white unburnt fuel out the tail pipe...

why....

his cam and pump were 1 tooth retarded..

after your 2 turns.. reinstall cam and pump pins... make sure your 100% right... he did his 2 turns and never checked his lock stuff... so he paid me $75 to fix... i hd asked him about this on phone before i ever saw car and tol dhim to double check... ahh well need more jobs like that...

[mtnbob]

Ok I have tdc on the flywheel, tdc on ignition pump pulley, cam lock is in the cam and valves are closed over #1 piston.  I didn't loosen the pulley on the camshaft, it was already on the mark, the lock was in the slot and the tdc mark lined up. Is it ok to put the timing belt on now? Obviously, I have to keep everything from moving when I put the belt on.

[mtnbob]

Ok,
Timing belt is on. Not too tight, not too loose. I have rotated the engine two rotations of tdc and everything is still lined up- flywheel, inj pump, and camshaft. Will the timing belt loosen up a bit and need retightened after running for awhile?

[rs899]

I can't say that I have experienced that.  If it's too tight now, loosen it.  If the crank /flywheel mark and the cam slot line up, crank it.

[ORCoaster]

loosen the injector nuts to bleed the air, any air out.  Then tighten em up, pull the cold start lever, put foot on accelerator pedal, give slight half throttle position, cycle glows and rotate the key and hold it there for a bit as it gives several turns.  Not light?  cycle glows another time and engage starter again. 

Ohh baby I can hear that clack now.

[mtnbob]

Ummmm well first I have to put the engine back in my car. Then I have to figure out how to attach the throttle to the pump. But I'm getting closer!!!!   Back to work!!!!!!


Thanks for everyone's patience and help through this. I would never have gotten this far without this group!!!!!!!!!!!!

[8v-of-fury]

You had the engine out for all of this? Kiss that easy of a t-belt job good bye Haha its not that much harder in the car, but its a lot more work than doing it outside of the car. I think I can do it in like 5 minutes out of car, love doing it that way. Even better I didn't have the transmission on so it was SUPER easy.