Anyone have mls gasket/arp studs/1.6 block? help me test something... - page 1 - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• Anyone have mls gasket/arp studs/1.6 block? help me test something... by kevinm on 26 Jun, 2012 18:45
• if you have the following, could you please put the studs in a 1.6 block and throw the mls head gasket down. If installing without dowels and using just the arp studs to locate the mls gasket does the gasket no matter how its moved back/forward side to side allow for the piston to pass without problem.. Im going crazzy.. im wondering if i have a problem.. i dont hear anything but then again im only running this motor to max 3000 rpm right now... thanks rodpaslow.
• #1 by theman53 on 27 Jun, 2012 07:37
• I will check for you, but IIRC the ARP with the MLS WILL NOT allow it to move on the studs shoulder. I had to pound mine on to get it over the threads.
  
  Went out and checked. There is no combination that you can move it so that it interferes with the piston in the bore. I am guessing it is since the bore is bigger on a 1.9
• #2 by rodpaslow on 27 Jun, 2012 09:15
• 
  
  This is the picture of a 1.9 gasket exactly like what i used.  Sorry about causing problems, but I'm not sure what is sticking out of the back of the block on your picture in the other post.  You obviously have it positioned properly otherwise you'd never get the head bolts in.  It must be like ROR said on the other post where it's just a different manufacturer that made the gasket , different gasket than what I had - I think this because in this picture the back of the gasket is a different position that where the pins are (if a block has pins-mine was a 92 block and had pins)??  Not sure...
• #3 by rodpaslow on 27 Jun, 2012 09:17
• Maybe this gasket is solid between the two rivets or what nibs are sticking out the back side and that what is showing in your picture on the other post.   
• #4 by R.O.R-2.0 on 27 Jun, 2012 10:41
• Quote from: rodpaslow on 27 Jun, 2012 09:17

  Maybe this gasket is solid between the two rivets or what nibs are sticking out the back side and that what is showing in your picture on the other post.   
  

  
  ive seen them like that. they were flat across the back.. there were no recesses in between where the rivets sit..
• #5 by kevinm on 27 Jun, 2012 11:16
• Thanks theman53 for the quick response. And rodpaslow I was only joking about this giving me any kind of grief.  I will keep you folks posted as to how the early days of this motor develop.
• #6 by southernman on 04 Sep, 2012 16:27
• Guys, I've gotta ask a question that, after scanning previous posts, keeps surfacing for me and others, and it's about the decision to run ARP Stud or the factory stretch bolts. Here's my scenario:
  
  I recently rebuilt an engine for my '82 Cadddy, and it's a 1.6 mechanical head, NA engine. Nothing fancy, but I did, based on comments from this site, decide to "upgrade" to the ARP 11mm Strud Kit and initially torqued (on the stand) to 95 ft. lbs using their "one pass" lube that came in the kit.
  
  I recently put the engine back in the car and decided to fire it up - dry. As mentioned in other articles here, I only let it run long enough to "kick the fans on" and them immediately shut the thing off.
  
  I then set the fans up in front of the truck and let them run a few hours until everything had completely cooled down. I then broke out the torque wrench to find:
  
  Head stud torque on the drivers side of the engine had been reduced to 65 ft.lbs and the highest values at the opposite side were near 75 ft.lbs. Now, that represents a whopping 30+% loss of the original torque values, and I'm not happy to see such results. Therefore:
  
  I broke out the SnapOn torque wrench and returqued the head to 95 ft.lbs again, but am now antsy about cranking and driving it with the studs...
  
  After talking to some of the local "hotrodders" and guys that devle into this stuff. A few of them tell me the ARP stuff is great - as long as you're willing to "periodically" retorque the studs on your engine (every 3-4 months), since the studs are targeted more toward the 'build it; blow it; rebuild it crowd of enthusiasts. I"m thinking about putting the stock stretch bolts back in it before introducing cooling fluids.
  
  What do you guys think is going on here ?
  
  David
• #7 by burn_your_money on 04 Sep, 2012 20:37
• I think you ran the engine for way too long without any coolant in it
• #8 by libbydiesel on 04 Sep, 2012 20:53
• How do you 'run it long enough to kick the fans on' when there isn't any coolant in the radiator where the temp switch is located? 
• #9 by Gizmoman on 04 Sep, 2012 21:04
• I'm a newbe to the diesel stuff but I've never heard of running a water cooled engine without water (on purpose). Did I miss a thread on rebuilding these puppies? Not being a Smart_A, if this is something I need to be aware of, say the word.
• #10 by 8v-of-fury on 04 Sep, 2012 22:01
• Quote from: Gizmoman on 04 Sep, 2012 21:04

  I'm a newbe to the diesel stuff but I've never heard of running a water cooled engine without water (on purpose). Did I miss a thread on rebuilding these puppies? Not being a Smart_A, if this is something I need to be aware of, say the word.
  

  
  Not common practice.. If southernman ran it that long with no coolant... its trashed for sure.
• #11 by ORCoaster on 04 Sep, 2012 22:44
• I recently put the engine back in the car and decided to fire it up - dry. As mentioned in other articles here, I only let it run long enough to "kick the fans on" and them immediately shut the thing off.
  
  I don't ever remember seeing this advice on this forum before.  All rebuilds, head gaskets, redone heads, etc always get coolant when fired back up.  I can't imagine how hot that thing got to turn the fans on in a radiator that had no coolant in it for it to set off the fan switch.  Did it get kind of red looking while this was happening.  I am surprised it didn't seize right up.
• #12 by 745 turbogreasel on 04 Sep, 2012 23:12
• Ive been overboosting on my Raceware studs @57 ft/lb for 4-5 years now without retorque FWIW.  They might be finer pitch than the ARP which would change the torque  spec.
• #13 by southernman on 05 Sep, 2012 00:01
• Quote from: burn_your_money on 04 Sep, 2012 20:37

  I think you ran the engine for way too long without any coolant in it
  

  
  Trust me, guys, the engine is fine. I've been a builder (American iron) since the 70's and virtually every engine I fire, I fire briefly to bring it up to temp (I've got a handheld infrared gun), and I then cool it to see how much torque has been lost on initial thermal cycling. Once retorqued, I put the liquids to it and it's prevented me from having water leaks on most of my builds.
  
  On American V8's, I learned this from a few early dyno events, where initial crank up of high compression race engines would have water spraying all over the dyno room, until the thing got hot, and it would seal up after a few minutes of running, and stop spewing water. I just prefer to do the short dry cycle and cool down. Again, the engine is fine.
  
  Now, back to the original question:
  
  The studs DO lose torque: When the aluminum head expands against the backside of the nuts and the head gasket, there is a slight compression of the gasket that takes place, hence the initial retorque.
  
  Slightly more compression occurs after (according to Bentley) about 1000 miles, where the (theoretical) final torque is applied. Once this is accomplished, the "elasticity" of the bolts prevent further relaxation of the torque values.
  
  The only reason I ask everyone here is because I'm not "seasoned" when it comes to these 1.6 engines. I do have a good friend that runs a local German Auto Repair shop that swears he's never been able to maintain torque values for more than a few months at a time, when he's tried the studs, and he's built dozens of these things. Again, his comments prompted my question to you here.
  
  Now, on some race cars I've owned over the years, studs used with Aluminum heads did not have the same elasticity as the original bolt, and thermally cycling, over time, would result in a loss of turque values (i.e. the release of torque is much more subtle, as expansion and vibration work their way into the equation, and I have encountered quite a few engines - especially very high compression engines - some supercharged - that would exude these characteristics).
  
  So, 745, is your setup a street car set up or are you referencing a rally car or ?
  
  Are you running a stock type head gasket ? If not, is it a MLS type, and did you coat your gasket ?
  
  When you initially torqued your head, what value did you use and did you use ARP's Ultralube to bring them up ?
  
  When you say 4-5 years; is that daily service ?
  
  It sounds like you're comfortable with yours, so maybe I'll just stick with these and see how they work out.
  
  Again, guys, thanks for the feedback.
  
  S
• #14 by Gizmoman on 05 Sep, 2012 06:07
• So if your building a daily, running 15 lbs with no mods other than a Giles pump and IC, should you use the ARP studs or stock head bolts?
  
  I really don't want to re-torque head bolts once I button things up. It also seems that if they are stretching/gasket seating/etc.etc. (the studs) then wouldn't you need to re-torque the mains as well (if you used studs)?
  I was going to buy the spendy ARP studs as I thought they were the best - now I'm not so sure.
  
  Thoughts?
  
  Jim