Anyone have mls gasket/arp studs/1.6 block? help me test something...

[theman53]

You should have no torque issues with the arp. The issue you maybe having is the 11mm block. I don't know what the studs call for in the 11mm arp for torque, but I wouldn't think it would be that high at the 95ft/lbs, what did the ARP paper say to take the studs too? My 12mm say to only go to 80ft/lbs. What I am getting at is you could have pulled the threads out of the 11mm block. Also, when you retorqued did you loosen one at a time? If the fastener is torqued at 90 and it even goes a little back say to 87, you won't be able to overcome the prevailing torque if you just set the wrench to 90 and turn. There will be too much friction and clamp to make it turn. But you weren't having that issue, so I don't know what is up there.
FWIW, I torque all fasteners that I use a torque wrench on *so NOT TTY bolts* to their torque values 3 times. Meaning I torque them, back them off 1/3 of a turn or so, and torque them again to their setting. Metals that are heated and forged or cast, then machined/welded have a certain "spring" to them. The reasoning is caused by austenite and then martensite phases in steels, search the internet to make sense of it. Some of my casting facilities I sell to will shot peen stuff, nascar guys will freeze stuff in a cryo chamber, and some will use a big oven to realign the carbon in the piece. All have their reasoning and different but similar end results to do what they want.  Regaurdless, if you don't do something SOME of the time you will get erratic torque values on brand new, fresh, machined products. It is usually never more than 10% different though.

[libbydiesel]

I think you ran the engine for way too long without any coolant in it

Trust me, guys, the engine is fine. I've been a builder (American iron) since the 70's and virtually every engine I fire, I fire briefly to bring it up to temp (I've got a handheld infrared gun), and I then cool it to see how much torque has been lost on initial thermal cycling. Once retorqued, I put the liquids to it and it's prevented me from having water leaks on most of my builds.

On American V8's, I learned this from a few early dyno events, where initial crank up of high compression race engines would have water spraying all over the dyno room, until the thing got hot, and it would seal up after a few minutes of running, and stop spewing water. I just prefer to do the short dry cycle and cool down. Again, the engine is fine.

How many of those American iron engines have a .001" piston to cylinder clearance spec?

[745 turbogreasel]

So, 745, is your setup a street car set up or are you referencing a rally car or ?

Are you running a stock type head gasket ? If not, is it a MLS type, and did you coat your gasket ?

When you initially torqued your head, what value did you use and did you use ARP's Ultralube to bring them up ?

When you say 4-5 years; is that daily service ?

It sounds like you're comfortable with yours, so maybe I'll just stick with these and see how they work out.

I drive it when I don't need a truck.  I couldn't find an MLS gasket at the time of install and used a fiber gasket installed dry.
Daily service, I regularly drive a 2000' car killer mountain. 1400+ EGTs and 15PSI.  If it's hot out, I have to back off, or my cooling system can't keep up.
I'd thought I'd be needing an MLS gasket long before now.

Here are the instructions  I double checked with the manufacturer, and followed to the letter. Again, Raceware my be a finer pitch than ARP,  the threads seemed smoother.
* note it says VOLVO, my engine is an inline 6 VW IDI sourced from the VW LT truck for use in Volvo 740/940 cars.  The pulley arrangement is different, but it is a longer 1.6.

INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS RWE-1010 CYLINDER HEAD STUD KIT

PLEASE READ INSTRUCTIONS COMPLETELY BEFORE BEGINNING INSTALLATION.

Correct installation is important for proper results. After cleaning the cylinder block deck per the VOLVO factory service manual, clean all head bolt holes with an 12 X 1.75mm tap and compressed air if possible. (Be careful not to allow debris to enter any other area of engine.) Peel the protective rubber coating off the stud threads by hand. Clean the threads with a toothbrush if necessary.

We recommend using a very light coat of Teflon based pipe sealant on the coarse threads of the stud before installation into the block. (The sealant is used merely to hold the stud in place if you remove the nut and washer at a later date.) We DO NOT RECOMMEND USING LOCTITE ON ANY OF THE THREADS!!!)

The studs should be threaded in by HAND ONLY until they bottom. NOTE: If you are installing the head on an engine in the vehicle, check for adequate clearance to install the head with the studs installed in the block. (Studs can be installed with head in position if necessary.) Make sure to install the head gasket correctly, etc. before positioning the cylinder head.

IMPORTANT
: When installing these studs in the block, make sure that the studs extend out of the block far enough to allow full engagement of the 12 point nut when installed with the hardened washer in place. In some instances this may require backing the stud out a few threads from being bottomed in the block. Do not back the stud out any more than necessary for full thread engagement in the nut.

After the studs have been installed correctly, use regular engine oil ONLY, (NO SLIPPERY lubes) to lubricate the stud, nut and washer before assembly. It is preferred that the washer be installed with the inside bevel facing up toward the nut. The nuts use a 1/2" 12 point (American) style socket. Torque the nuts in three increments using the torque pattern in the VOLVO factory service manual.

step 1 (25) ft/lbs. step 2 (40) ft/lbs. FINAL TORQUE 50 ft/ lbs.

We recommend running the engine until it reaches normal operating temperature then shutting it off and allowing it to cool to room temperature, then re-torque the nuts to 50 ft/lbs. again.

RACEWARE Engineering L.L.C. warrants these fasteners to be free of defects in material and workmanship for life, to the original purchaser. No other warranty is expressed or implied including suitability for application. Claims are limited to replacement of defective item or refund of purchase price only, at RACEWARE Engineering’s option, if returned with proper authorization. The user assumes all risk and agrees to hold RACEWARE Engineering L.L.C. and its principals harmless, and free of any claims including but not limited to incidental expenses, cost of removal and replacement, etc.. No claims may be brought by outside parties such as friends, family, acquaintances, or others.Warranty VOID if fasteners are subjected to misuse or abuse, or improperly installed.

By installation of these fasteners, user agrees to these terms.

[southernman]

I think you ran the engine for way too long without any coolant in it

Trust me, guys, the engine is fine. I've been a builder (American iron) since the 70's and virtually every engine I fire, I fire briefly to bring it up to temp (I've got a handheld infrared gun), and I then cool it to see how much torque has been lost on initial thermal cycling. Once retorqued, I put the liquids to it and it's prevented me from having water leaks on most of my builds.

On American V8's, I learned this from a few early dyno events, where initial crank up of high compression race engines would have water spraying all over the dyno room, until the thing got hot, and it would seal up after a few minutes of running, and stop spewing water. I just prefer to do the short dry cycle and cool down. Again, the engine is fine.

How many of those American iron engines have a .001" piston to cylinder clearance spec?

Libby, I don't understand the relavence of the question, but I do understand clearances. I can also tell you that piston-to-deck may be critical on a diesel, but there are many, equally, important clearance issues to deal with in a high compression stroked, blown, rollerized, gasser making 4-digit horsepower at 8-9000 rpm, and I've built, and currently own one, such beast(s).

I've also got to tell you that these little diesels are not complex, which is another thing I like about them. Sure timing the injector pump is a bit of a challenge, but overall, I really like the simplicity of these things.

Again, this was just a ping to everyone to help determine their success with the studs. Thanks for the feedback.

D

[theman53]

Libby was not talking about the piston to deck clearance, the new spec for piston to cylinder wall is .0012" . No USA muscle is anywhere close to that...IIRC SBC is somewhere around .007" for a street car and even more loose for high HP. But even at .007" that is pretty much 7x more than our diesels start out and they are considered needing rebuilt at .003", so the mildest SBC gasser with the tightest specs is still 2.5x larger clearance new, than a worn out 1.6L VW.

EDIT: found a site that confirmed my stuff page 1 ... http://www.rosspistons.com/information/automotive_installation.pdf

[libbydiesel]

Yup, and the MUCH tighter piston to bore clearance means that these engines are that much more sensitive to overheating.

As I asked before, how did you manage to get your fans to come on without coolant circulating on the temp switch in the radiator to turn them on? 

[8v-of-fury]

They're not complex, but I am pretty sure if you waited long enough for the fans to kick on with no liquid in the engine.. It definitely cooked something.

[Gizmoman]

Trust me, guys, the engine is fine. I've been a builder (American iron) since the 70's and virtually every engine I fire, I fire briefly to bring it up to temp (I've got a handheld infrared gun)

Possibly what Southernman was saying was that he used a temp gun and shut it off when it reached what "would have been" the same temp as when the fans (would have) come on?
If he cooked it, it certainly wouldn't be "fine" - just a thought

[8v-of-fury]

Maybe he is getting funky torque readings because the head has deformed? They got hot quick with water circulating through them. - Also food for thought.

[southernman]

Libby was not talking about the piston to deck clearance, the new spec for piston to cylinder wall is .0012" . No USA muscle is anywhere close to that...IIRC SBC is somewhere around .007" for a street car and even more loose for high HP. But even at .007" that is pretty much 7x more than our diesels start out and they are considered needing rebuilt at .003", so the mildest SBC gasser with the tightest specs is still 2.5x larger clearance new, than a worn out 1.6L VW.

EDIT: found a site that confirmed my stuff page 1 ... http://www.rosspistons.com/information/automotive_installation.pdf

Thanks for the feedback, but guys, I've been a builder for a long time, and my second most favorite hotrod is my Cummins 3500 dually - which truly hauls ass with just simple upgrades. But I digress.

On the hypereutectic pump gas engines I've built over the years, they do routinely run at .001 wall clearance and thats based on the mfg's recommendations assuming no power adders or excessive compression. All gas lower compression/performance engines run tight piston to wall clearances. High output race stuff, requires more. Another tidbit: the tighter the clearances, the "less" prone to overheating the engines tend to be.

On the diesels we're discussing, the piston to wall clearance is tight - because there is not an abundance of heat to cause significant expansion of the pistoin itself. This is due to the extremely short burn cycle, which does not induce heat soak on the body of the piston, like a gasoline engine does. The fact that you run a .001 piston clearance is proof that there is not enough heat in the "body" of the piston to cause clearance issues. Now, with a turbo, it's a different story - and we add a pyro gauge to ensure things don't get too carried away. Also, on turbo assy's both piston and rings are adjusted for the extra heat. I agree that gas engines are more forgiving with such clearances, but boring and honing on the min, while running the engine at max output, can result in scuffed pistons and another expensive rebuild as well - regardless of the engine you build.

On the race stuff I've ran over the years (forged race pistons) they require up to .005 because the pistons expand under extreme pressure/heat.

On the infrared gun, you are correct. The engine ran about 45 seconds, in total, and was shut down. The engine is fine - no head warpage.

I guess getting back to my original question on stud reliability isn't making any headway, so I'll cordially just say thanks for the feedback guys. I think I've got a handle on it.

Southernman

[theman53]

If you look at the first post on page 2 of mine I told you the deal with ARP.

Boils down to I think that you have too much torque on an 11mm bolt. You could have pulled the threads out of an 11mm block with 95ft/lbs. Again, my 12mm called for only 80ft/lbs, and it is a larger fastener. If it runs without leaking be gentle on it with headgaskets from now on, if it doesn't check the threads and upgrade to the 1.6 12mm block.

[Gizmoman]

Also, on turbo assy's both piston and rings are adjusted for the extra heat. I agree that gas engines are more forgiving with such clearances, but boring and honing on the min, while running the engine at max output, can result in scuffed pistons and another expensive rebuild as well - regardless of the engine you build

Thanks Southrnman for the interesting info - food for thought. I am rebuilding my 1.9 after pushing it a bit too hard for a bit too long climbing a grade - left some of #4 piston on the barrel walls.
The Bently spec is .001 over but Bently isn't boosting as high as we are or tweaking the fuel screw . I wonder if that's the reason for the .0012 change mentioned by Theman54?

the new spec for piston to cylinder wall is .0012

[theman53]

That is just what I found in the bentley. Twelve ten-thousandths versus one thou isn't much...well 2 ten-thousandths, but I remember reading it just the other day when doing rings.

[Gizmoman]

Thanks theman53,
What are your thoughts on the piston clearance in relation to non-stock loading I mentioned (pushing a vanagon at 70 MPH)? Do you think that may be the cause for early engine rebuilds? I guess if we open up the exhaust, cool the intake, and keep an eye on EGT's the stock clearance of .0012 is fine but we (some of us) are a bit off the Bentley charts on our applications and a bit of clearance might be a good thing - - ?
Getting wayyy off topic now and it aint even my thread