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GT2056V on a 1.6TD... by R.O.R-2.0 on 27 May, 2012 09:58
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so, i came across a VNT20 setup for a VERY good deal recently, and i wanna run it.
pretty sure its gonna be a quite awesome setup on the 1.6L engine..
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but, i have some questions, and i know very little about these bigger VNTs, and how they perform on smaller engines?
theoretically, since this is a VNT, it should still spool rather quickly, right? i just dont want a dog of a turbo..
im NOT going to run this turbo without the vanes hooked up either.. the vanes move extremely smooth, and i want to keep them that way..
so, does anyone have any input as to how this turbo might perform? what kinda boost numbers it pushes out?
and, how laggy is this going to be, being that it came off a 2.5, and is going back on a 1.6?
BTW, its a street toys hybrid turbo.. -
#1 by theman53 on 27 May, 2012 10:43
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http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=300010
That ^ shows some different turbos and there "sizes". It doesn't nessesarily say that what will run good or how yours will, but there are some turbos that have been used on that link that you could get a feel for it. I have yet to find a compressor map for mine, but it is listed = 2256v off of a 2.7L Sprinter. I don't have the engine done, so I am looking forward to how yours ends up
If yours is a 2056 or a different 2256 then the exducer will be the same size. Housings and what not maybe different, but if you could find someone running one on a TDI you could see what they say. Since our engines are less efficient by nature of design and the more revs we have, then it shouldn't be too much of a change even with the .3L of displacement loss.
Here is another site that I have looked at to try and get my head around this a bit. Not quite the same as our stuff, but good reading to try and figure out stuff. http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tuning-and-upgrades/167073-things-that-need-changing-when-turbo-i-uprated-4.html
Obviously, Libby diesel is the one to read for the design for a good VNT control system. He has a thread on that other forum. He has linked to it a bunch of times. http://www.vwdieselparts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11042 -
#2 by R.O.R-2.0 on 27 May, 2012 10:54
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oh, i imagine im going to be picking Libbys brain a few times thru out my build up.. (hope you dont mind Andrew!!)
hes definitely the most knowledgeable guy on the forum, about VNTs, and how to set them up..
and i want to make my vanes function as close to the way they were intended to function..
if this turbo, with proper vane control, reacts in the lower RPMs about like my VNT15 did without vane control, then i would be VERY happy!
i really want this turbo to work good, and i dont see any reason why it wont.. our 1.6 engines are LESS efficient, but they do spin more RPMs, and ive heard that they flow similar numbers on the top end.. -
#3 by libbydiesel on 27 May, 2012 12:01
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Looks like a fun project. I think it will be large for a 1.6 but with vanes closed it will likely spool faster than a K24 or T3 and be able to flow rod-bending boost efficiently with vanes open. As far as spooling as well as your last turbo, I can't really say. I can't really account for how your last turbo performed. I've used a couple VNT15s on 1.6TDs and with vanes fully open and close-to-stock fueling and they have a hard time making 7-8 psi of boost.
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#4 by R.O.R-2.0 on 27 May, 2012 12:26
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Looks like a fun project. I think it will be large for a 1.6 but with vanes closed it will likely spool faster than a K24 or T3 and be able to flow rod-bending boost efficiently with vanes open. As far as spooling as well as your last turbo, I can't really say. I can't really account for how your last turbo performed. I've used a couple VNT15s on 1.6TDs and with vanes fully open and close-to-stock fueling and they have a hard time making 7-8 psi of boost.
you said it yourself tho, that i am DANGEROUSLY over fueled.. and im going to buy an EGT gauge today, to see exactly how right you are..
my pump always made 20psi (with ease) or more with a VNT15, vanes fully open.
i hope it doesnt matter that this is a StreetToys 2000 hybrid turbo. i hope that doesnt make it a laggy dog.
rod bending boost you say? so, basically is what your saying, is that head studs are basically a requirement for this turbo?
should i do anything to the bottom end of the engine? its 100% stock right now.. -
#5 by theman53 on 27 May, 2012 12:27
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what I am meaning on our engines being less efficient is that more waste is going out the exhaust, so it should spool similar to a 1.9. Which is a good thing... I am guessing, but I shouldn't be too far off on it.
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#6 by libbydiesel on 27 May, 2012 13:31
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Actually the difference in efficiency is not from heat out the exhaust, but rather increased heat lost to the cooling system due to the increased surface area of the pre-combustion chambers. The waste heat out the exhaust is similar for TDI and IDI.
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#7 by libbydiesel on 27 May, 2012 13:34
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Looks like a fun project. I think it will be large for a 1.6 but with vanes closed it will likely spool faster than a K24 or T3 and be able to flow rod-bending boost efficiently with vanes open. As far as spooling as well as your last turbo, I can't really say. I can't really account for how your last turbo performed. I've used a couple VNT15s on 1.6TDs and with vanes fully open and close-to-stock fueling and they have a hard time making 7-8 psi of boost.
you said it yourself tho, that i am DANGEROUSLY over fueled.. and im going to buy an EGT gauge today, to see exactly how right you are..
my pump always made 20psi (with ease) or more with a VNT15, vanes fully open.
i hope it doesnt matter that this is a StreetToys 2000 hybrid turbo. i hope that doesnt make it a laggy dog.
rod bending boost you say? so, basically is what your saying, is that head studs are basically a requirement for this turbo?
should i do anything to the bottom end of the engine? its 100% stock right now..
I should have said that the only way I can account for your ability to produce high boost from a VNT15 with vanes fully open would be from excessive fuel. I think the Street toys turbo with vanes fully closed will spool as fast or faster than a VNT15 with vanes fully open. I think the head gasket will be a weaker link than the bottom end. -
#8 by theman53 on 27 May, 2012 13:52
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IMHO the precups in the head won't like it. I would have a spare ready just in case. My machinist has decided that the precups were designed for 52-77 hp. Mine grew like crazy and were not liking the added fuel that Giles has given to me. The Aluminum is the weakest link. If you are running that reused fiber gasket then it is probably going to go first, but an MLS steel like I was running should be fine. I had mine studed so that wasn't an issue either.
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#9 by theman53 on 27 May, 2012 13:57
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Actually the difference in efficiency is not from heat out the exhaust, but rather increased heat lost to the cooling system due to the increased surface area of the pre-combustion chambers. The waste heat out the exhaust is similar for TDI and IDI.
I am guessing but I was thinking that similar 1.9 engines either IDI or TDI the IDI will always have higher EGT for similar setups. Maybe not an efficientcy thing, but just from what I have heard that is the way it is. Makes sense to me that way as the TDI is a cleaner burning system and the more it continues to burn past the exhuast valve should help it spool....like I said, just hypothesis.
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#10 by R.O.R-2.0 on 27 May, 2012 17:56
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Looks like a fun project. I think it will be large for a 1.6 but with vanes closed it will likely spool faster than a K24 or T3 and be able to flow rod-bending boost efficiently with vanes open. As far as spooling as well as your last turbo, I can't really say. I can't really account for how your last turbo performed. I've used a couple VNT15s on 1.6TDs and with vanes fully open and close-to-stock fueling and they have a hard time making 7-8 psi of boost.
you said it yourself tho, that i am DANGEROUSLY over fueled.. and im going to buy an EGT gauge today, to see exactly how right you are..
my pump always made 20psi (with ease) or more with a VNT15, vanes fully open.
i hope it doesnt matter that this is a StreetToys 2000 hybrid turbo. i hope that doesnt make it a laggy dog.
rod bending boost you say? so, basically is what your saying, is that head studs are basically a requirement for this turbo?
should i do anything to the bottom end of the engine? its 100% stock right now..
I should have said that the only way I can account for your ability to produce high boost from a VNT15 with vanes fully open would be from excessive fuel. I think the Street toys turbo with vanes fully closed will spool as fast or faster than a VNT15 with vanes fully open. I think the head gasket will be a weaker link than the bottom end.
ok, well... i have one more question about this setup..
AM I ASKING FOR PROBLEMS??
is this turbo going to harm my engine?
(im actually going to be monitoring this engine, i got a 1600*f autometer pyrometer today)
i need to get head studs tho..
and lucas, i would think that my precups would actually like this turbo MORE. its going to be more efficient, and flow MORE air, so it should run cooler EGTs than my VNT15, or K24 ever ran..
BTW, dunno if the markings are accurate, but they say the cold side is a .45, and that the hot side is a .64, but being a hybrid turbo, and knowing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the actual specs, its kinda a guessing game, right?
i am planning for a set of head studs, and a metal head gasket if the fiber proves to be too problematic, im gonna try and run a fiber gasket w/ studs at first, and see how it likes it. VNT turbos should be/are actually easier on the head gasket, than conventional turbos. the VNTs have much lower drive pressures than the conventional turbos. the exhaust side of VNT turbos flows AMAZING at high RPMs..
please, someone tell me if im just stupid for wanting to run this turbo, or if it will be completely acceptable with the right fueling and mods? i dont want to set myself up for failure. i dont want to have a sob story to post, for you guys to laugh at.. -
#11 by theman53 on 27 May, 2012 18:53
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If it is a 2256v it could be the same VNT that I have. I am going to run it on mine, but I am having some serious stuff done to help the head out. I am convinced that the forged crank VW gave these cars is almost grenade proof. The rods are quite tough as well, my #3 bent, but it had the entire precup in the hole and the head faired much worse. I bet #3 rod I have would still run with a miss in an otherwise healthy engine as it isn't bent all that bad. The blocks could be a bit beefier.
All in all I think the alum head is by far the weakest link. I think no matter what turbo the precups will heat and expand more than the aluminum if you throw fuel at them. If I were you I would have a spare head and you should be good to go. I have those AAZ engines and an AAZ head that will get that 2256v when the 1.6 has it figured out. -
#12 by R.O.R-2.0 on 27 May, 2012 19:09
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If it is a 2256v it could be the same VNT that I have. I am going to run it on mine, but I am having some serious stuff done to help the head out. I am convinced that the forged crank VW gave these cars is almost grenade proof. The rods are quite tough as well, my #3 bent, but it had the entire precup in the hole and the head faired much worse. I bet #3 rod I have would still run with a miss in an otherwise healthy engine as it isn't bent all that bad. The blocks could be a bit beefier.
All in all I think the alum head is by far the weakest link. I think no matter what turbo the precups will heat and expand more than the aluminum if you throw fuel at them. If I were you I would have a spare head and you should be good to go. I have those AAZ engines and an AAZ head that will get that 2256v when the 1.6 has it figured out.
its not a 2260v, or a 2056v..
its a 2056v.. previous owner said it spooled a little SLOWER than his current 2260v, but FLEW on the top end. said it had more top end power than the 2260 did.
this turbo came from a 2.5L TDI I5..
and i have an AAZ head that ive got for a spare.. just needs new lifters. had a broken lifter and slightly messed up lifter bore. supposed to be a 20 thousand mile OEM VW head.. came from GEE-BEE.. -
#13 by theman53 on 27 May, 2012 19:32
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so now we can experiment. Let me know your failures and I will let you know mine...maybe a success too.
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#14 by libbydiesel on 27 May, 2012 20:01
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I think it will work ok. I think it's a bigger VNT than I would want to run on a 1.6TD and so it will likely be a bit laggy with the potential to make more boost than I'd want to run. It will still probably spool faster than a T3 or K24 and flow better overall. It's all a guess, tho, so slap it on and report back.
Is that a boost can actuator on there? If so, then I'd stick it on and run it and see how it performs like that.