Planning for WVO conversion

[ORCoaster]

I am not sure this is the best place for this thread so if it would fit better in the general section moderator please move it>

My question is this, would it be better to make the in place stock fuel tank my primary waste vegetable oil tank and then throw on a smaller tank to provide the diesel necessary to get through warm up and back to start condition.

Nearly all my miles are long distance.  I start the car and on the road at 60 mph within say 5 miles.  With the way the engine heats quickly I should be good to go at that point to switch over to the cheaper fuel.

My thought here is that in my case adding a second tank for the purposes of having a place to dump WVO is more problematic than say adding a tank that holds 3 gallons of diesel.  So has anyone just gone to using their stock tank for WVO?  I can foresee some problems with screen plugging and such but do I really need to add a heater my temperatures are in the 30- 60 degree F. range?  

I am sourcing out a small tank that will fit inside the spare tire inside the car.  I haven't decided to make an external outlet to that or not.  Common sense, if such a thing exists, says do it, don't mess up that new 200 dollar carpet I just installed.  Anyone have an idea there on how to make that happen and look clean and professional.  I could run a hose from the other side of the car and have dual fillers I think.  Or are the ones on the car specific for the right hand side?  Legally can I put one that close to the exhaust?  Putting the fill behind the license plate is just as close or worse.

I want to run a plate heater up front close to the IP to minumize heat loss but should I be thinking about cooling in the IP and the lines to the injectors?  I know there are electric heaters available for the lines but would that be necessary given the temp range mentioned above?

I wasn't thinking I needed return flow for the smaller diesel tank but might make it so for the WVO system.  Any pro/cons on that idea.

Any cons on any of this "logic"  

Chime in please, with diesel just jumping 10-12 cents a gallon I think the days of getting it for under $4/gallon are few.  So am looking for an alternative to my 450 mile drives.

Thanks, DAS

[wdkingery]

Well, it's likely clear by now I tend to just "race what ya brought" so I'd add a small diesel tank in the trunk and fill the regular tank with the wvo. Screw heating the tank.. The return lines will add some heat anyway, and i don't really see how viscosity is an issue. Add a lift pump from a 90's model Chevy diesel pickup truck (just got one from the bone yard today for $8) just before the fuel filter and you should be good to go

[mtrans]

It look like you decide at end,lot of VWO I hope,2T isn`t eazy but is best.
I use VW water overflow from coalant as my ~2 lit D tank and if you have room at motor go(+you have 2 valves to stop vacum).- is that you must have 2 cocacola jug with D,you save 200 dollar carpet and no smell.
It`s much better to have two filter.Electric can`t heat even glow plug(not good idea trust me),for shall we say 300w=25 Amp it`s nothing the flow IS problem, parhaps some gain in closed loop but not much,that is reasonVWO guys swich at 65c MOTOR temp.
Parhaps another fuel is eazy?

[745 turbogreasel]

My question is this, would it be better to make the in place stock fuel tank my primary waste vegetable oil tank and then throw on a smaller tank to provide the diesel necessary to get through warm up and back to start condition.
Retain the stock fuel system, and at an aux.  I got a 20 gal marine tank in the tire well of my Volvo, and had room for a 30 under my Caddy(needed air shocks to hold a full load).
I'm not a fan of a tiny tank on either side.
Nearly all my miles are long distance.  I start the car and on the road at 60 mph within say 5 miles.  With the way the engine heats quickly I should be good to go at that point to switch over to the cheaper fuel.
~2 miles seems to work for me.

My thought here is that in my case adding a second tank for the purposes of having a place to dump WVO is more problematic than say adding a tank that holds 3 gallons of diesel.  So has anyone just gone to using there stock tank for WVO?  I can foresee some problems with screen plugging and such but do I really need to add a heater my temperatures are in the 30- 60 degree F. range? 
Depends how much you like stopping on the side of the road, and realizing your D tank only has a quart left in it.  I do.

I am sourcing out a small tank that will fit inside the spare tire inside the car.  I haven't decided to make an external outlet to that or not.  Common sense, if such a thing exists, says do it, don't mess up that new 200 dollar carpet I just installed.  Anyone have an idea there on how to make that happen and look clean and professional.  I could run a hose from the other side of the car and have dual fillers I think.  Or are the ones on the car specific for the right hand side?  Legally can I put one that close to the exhaust?  Putting the fill behind the license plate is just as close or worse.
Fill and vent outside the car.  It's worth however much work you have to do.  Baffled tank a + too.I did a couple Benzes with a marine filler in the sail panel that looked pretty clean.

I want to run a plate heater up front close to the IP to minumize heat loss but should I be thinking about cooling in the IP and the lines to the injectors?  I know there are electric heaters available for the lines but would that be necessary given the temp range mentioned above?
Heating my tank and lines, I never had a problem.

I wasn't thinking I needed return flow for the smaller diesel tank but might make it so for the WVO system.  Any pro/cons on that idea.
Only a fool does not have  a 'air purge mode' of some sort.  2 SS ball valves works for me.
If you return diesel to the veg tank, and vent it inside, your life will suck.

^My opinion only.  I did a few conversions, and  have about 20K grease miles on my car.

[ORCoaster]

    Still undecided and thinking on this one.  Probably won't have cash till the income taxes roll in and I get the summer tires on the Riken rims.  But as I went past the station that had a 4.09 price this morning I noticed it was 4.19 this afternoon. 

Getting fuel for half of that will pay for the system sooner than later so best getting working on parts and prices. 

Thanks for the feedback. 

[CRSMP5]

honestly.. look into converting to bio... no 2nd tank.. no switches no opps i just screwed up and left wvo in the pump...

ive had this debate in my brain over and over.. bio is just safer... still gotta warm/filter... the differance is doing the conversion out side the car vs all the work to do inside it..

[wdkingery]

www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=30848.0

I had to lol

[mtrans]

Cost of bio per lit?

[ORCoaster]

WD you laughing at my change of heart and head?  Passed the station today and diesel was up 16 cents a gallon to 4.25. 

Mtrans  the WVO that is filtered and water spun out of it will cost $2/3.78 liter.  I have not priced Biodiesel as it generally tracks with regular diesel and is rising as it does.  Why stop profit when it is available?

[745 turbogreasel]

honestly.. look into converting to bio... no 2nd tank.. no switches no opps i just screwed up and left wvo in the pump...

ive had this debate in my brain over and over.. bio is just safer...

Maybe, only if your bio is made by a petrochemical company with a real refinery.
I think on an old car you gain more by having a redundant fuel system.

[ORCoaster]

745 Turbogreasel,  I asked a bit ago if I could just drop in a larger tank to get more capacity for the round trip I make.  Consensus then was I just needed a second tank.  Well second tank could be the diesel and the stock become the larger volume waste oil tank I figured.  So I may be killing two birds with one stone if I go for the dual system approach.  Maybe that bird thing should go, I have many at home we have rescued. 

I like the idea of keeping things separate, my son always had WVO sneaking into the diesel because he didn't have a delay on the switch over valves and after awhile it became hard to start when cold.  He hated to put straight diesel into the main tank and probably had more of a 70/30 mix going in what he thought was 100% diesel.  So I would go a split system with a delay to avoid that especially since I am not going to have a big volume of diesel on board.   

This weekend I may crawl under the car and see if I have room for a U shaped type tank that wraps around the main tank.  Make it out of PVC pipe maybe.  Is that diesel safe?  Have to figure the volume per foot of some 3 or 4 inch diameter pipe.  Might just get 4 gallons in it. 

later DAS

[CRSMP5]

i never said buy bio.. make it... when i priced the stuff a couple years ago it was under $1/gal.. that 1$ allowes me the piece of mind that ill not have a mix of wvo in the diesel tank or left over night in the fuel pump..

[745 turbogreasel]

  Make it out of PVC pipe maybe.  Is that diesel safe? 

Hell no, your full tank should not leak after a 10' on-edge drop to concrete, 30' if you are carrying hazmat(WVO).

A manual purge valve  is cheaper and more reliable than  a delay return, but I never had a problem running  a mile or two on veg before shutdown.

Yes, you can make bio, but IMO there is just as much room for human error as with a veg setup

[belchfire]

I live in the Portland area and it's too cold NOT to have heaters. In My opinion, you can't have it too hot. Many a time I've been stuck alongside the road in the rain changing a filter because it waxed up. I replaced the spare in my caddy with a 10 gal stainless tank. Best to keep the stock system (tank) on an experimental vehicle as there will be times when the WVO system will crap out and you will be walking otherwise. I'm running 3/8" teflon line inside 3/4" heater hose to and from the tank. Got a home made heater with 2 glow plugs (bosch 9006) a hot wire around the Racor filter,another heater before the diesel filter and injector line heaters. (Also have a 90 amp alt.) Tried copper water lines for heaters but they didn't do a good enough job. Also, no will tell you but as far as tank heaters go, copper will react with the acids in the VO and make nastys. Aluminum will corrode. Stainless is expensive and hard to fabricate. I used PEX (1/2") and it's been working for 30K. Some interesting plumbing for sure, but so far-so good. I also installed an additional thermostat in the upper hose at the head. I made a spacer and put in a 180*. Theory is that the stock unit closes off the radiator and the coolant circulates around the block. It would rather go through a 1" hose than all of the 3/4 & 1/2 line, so closing that path forces it to go to the tank. Maybe a little overkill but I was driving 20 miles just to get it warmed on a 23 mile commute. Now, I go about 5 miles until the temp gauge reads normal and then switch. Always works with no change in running. Time your shut down carefully. If too late, it will coagulate and good luck getting it started. (If that happens, run a propane torch 10 seconds on each injector and it helps) I pondered doing the bio-diesel but dealing with deadly chemicals, titration,washing, and disposal of the glycerine didn't appeal to me. If you de-water and filter your oil and heat the bejezzus out of it and time your switching, then SVO can work for you. BTW, mine is torn down due to a cam belt jump and the rings aren't gummed up and deposits are minimal.

[RustyCaddy]

Biodiesel isn't that bad of a route but there are start up costs and a learning curve.  Then there is replacing pumps etc. so there are variable costs.  If you have a free oil source that helps...if you pay $1.00 gallon for unfilterd oil, add in chemicals (methanol is expensive now) and loss due to waste and the glycerin bi-product and you can end up spending $2.50/gal more or less...which isn't bad right now anyway.

Like Belchfire said the chemicals can be in issue too; methanol poisoning causes vision problems, nerve damage, memory loss and a couple of other things but i forget what else